The subconscious

[too-open-minded]

Could it be possible that the subconscious, is evidence of us having limited access to our brain? Could the brain possibly store more information than we are aware?

 

I kinda feel like this question has already been proposed and some psychologist has already shown the brain stores more information than our consciousness allows us access to but yeah, any thoughts on this?

[cladking]

There's no such thing as "the subconscious". There might multiple consciousnesses in the body but there's only one single integrated and complete consciousness of which we are aware. This doesn't mean there's nothing going on in terms of processing, sensation, perception, and cognition of which we aren't aware, merely that there's only one of us that is complete. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there are low level consciousnesses in ganglia and nerve clusters throughout the body but these consciousnesses are aware of their function and the overriding consciousness. This might be the basis of "muscle memory" and our ability to achieve exceedingly fine control of the concrete world through our muscles.

 

But the Freudian idea that we are split into pieces is simple fantasy and misunderstanding of his work. It's likely the result of a dalience with a sister in law that was intellectualized and then misunderstood.

 

There's plenty going on beneath the surface because the brain is a lean mean processing machine. It processes information and filters out overload and information which it is preset to ignore (anything that defies our beliefs). These "sub-processes" can come under some lose control if we strive for it. Things such as seeking answers in our sleep actually works. We are mere observers but I seriously doubt there is more than one of us in each instance except where disease processes are at work.

 

We become our beliefs so to some degree if you choose to believe in the subconscious then you are likely to exhibit more behavior and more attributes consistent with having a "subconscious". I believe this is very unhealthy for the human race though it's one of those things that give some individuals comfort. To each his own.

[Ringer]

There's no such thing as "the subconscious". There might multiple consciousnesses in the body but there's only one single integrated and complete consciousness of which we are aware. This doesn't mean there's nothing going on in terms of processing, sensation, perception, and cognition of which we aren't aware, merely that there's only one of us that is complete. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there are low level consciousnesses in ganglia and nerve clusters throughout the body but these consciousnesses are aware of their function and the overriding consciousness. This might be the basis of "muscle memory" and our ability to achieve exceedingly fine control of the concrete world through our muscles.

The conscious part of our mind is anything but complete. The vast majority of things that happen in the nervous system have nothing to do with conscious thought, hell many things that we decide have little to do with conscious thought.

 

No single part of the brain is 'aware' of its function any more than your muscle cells are 'aware' of their function. They are just carrying out biochemical reactions. Muscle memory happens, more or less, when there is enough neuronal control of firing patterns that conscious control is no longer needed. That directly contradicts the idea that there is no subconscious.

 

 

But the Freudian idea that we are split into pieces is simple fantasy and misunderstanding of his work. It's likely the result of a dalience with a sister in law that was intellectualized and then misunderstood.

 

I agree that Freud's ideas were purely fantastical. That doesn't negate the fact that there are aspects of our thinking, decision making, etc that never go through 'executive processes' that would be considered consciousness. Enough so that the conscious part of our minds have virtually no control over many of these things.

There's plenty going on beneath the surface because the brain is a lean mean processing machine. It processes information and filters out overload and information which it is preset to ignore (anything that defies our beliefs). These "sub-processes" can come under some lose control if we strive for it. Things such as seeking answers in our sleep actually works. We are mere observers but I seriously doubt there is more than one of us in each instance except where disease processes are at work.

 

 

Again how do you control these things? You may be able to indirectly control many of these aspects, but direct control is very hard to believe.

We become our beliefs so to some degree if you choose to believe in the subconscious then you are likely to exhibit more behavior and more attributes consistent with having a "subconscious". I believe this is very unhealthy for the human race though it's one of those things that give some individuals comfort. To each his own.

What behavior is consistent with having a subconscious? Regulation of body temperature? Feeling pain? The shortcuts the brain uses that makes our perceptions lie to us consistently?

 

Could it be possible that the subconscious, is evidence of us having limited access to our brain? Could the brain possibly store more information than we are aware?

Yes, there is plenty of evidence of our conscious awareness having limited access to our brain, but we do use all the parts of our brains.

 

It depends on what you mean by information. I don't know of a good hypothesis on the absolute limitations of learning or storage for the brain, but if I were to make a (complete and utter) guess I would say that the limitation of the brain would be related to the amount of novel neuronal connections (or series of connections) in different specialized areas. But like I said, that's just a guess.

I kinda feel like this question has already been proposed and some psychologist has already shown the brain stores more information than our consciousness allows us access to but yeah, any thoughts on this?

A pretty good book on the subject is called Incognito ( http://www.amazon.com/Incognito-Secret-Lives-David-Eagleman/dp/0307389928 ).

[Bill Angel]

It's interesting (to me at least) that some nights I have vivid imaginative dreams, while other nights I don't recall dreaming at all.

Is it the "subconscious" that controlls when and how we dream?

[too-open-minded]

Wrath greed sloth pride lust envy and gluttony. The 7 deadly sins. We have a subconscious, its merely our brains encouraging us to do everything we can to maximize our rate of survival.

 

I agree with you, I don't think their is a "subconscious" I think its our perceptions don't see everything. I don't even think theirs a consciousness, I think we are just starting to become intelligent enough so that we are aware of things.

 

Anyways I think what Frued meant by our subconscious is that its what our brain is telling us to do to survive. Glutton as much as you can so you don't run out of energy. Lust to procreate.

 

Cladking i'm sure you feel that people hear this is their subconscious and they can use it as an excuse, at the end of the day someone who wants an excuse is going to find one. Although I do believe that the Freudian subconscious needs to be updated, psychology is a relatively new science.

[cladking]

 

Cladking i'm sure you feel that people hear this is their subconscious and they can use it as an excuse, at the end of the day someone who wants an excuse is going to find one. Although I do believe that the Freudian subconscious needs to be updated, psychology is a relatively new science.

 

Yes. This is essentially my problem with the concept of the "sub-conscious".

 

Of course you're right that people can excuse themselves of anything at all and will find a way to intellectualize it, blame God, fate, or anything but their own misguided behavior or their own weaknesses, perversions, or carelessness. But I don't see this as the problem of the 20th century where tens of millions were simply murdered, often horribly, and many millions more died in senseless wars. I believe the problem is that too many people believe we aren't responsible for our results or our actions. Most of these people don't believe we are responsible because of some imagined sub-conscious or overwhelming urge. This allows schools that don't teach and institutions that don't react. Families are breaking down as increasing government interference affects all aspects of society. People can't be trusted to do what's right so government is appointed to not hold anyone responsible (at great cost).

 

No one is responsibnle for what they do or how they do it but increasingly people are held responsible for what they think or how they say it. Rather than getting better results this leads to more and more political correctness. Everyone talks a good game and then passes laws and institutes programs that discriminate because of characteristics over which no one has control. Every year human life is held in lower esteem and individual rights give way to civil rights. The same processes are going on nearly world wide.

 

Until people are held responsible schools will turn out illiterates whose atrocities are excused in advance by a media that pretends their victims were "caught in the crossfire" rather than murdered to force relatives to join gangs. School boards are more interested in political activism than concerned with a 70% failure rate for the boys they are supposed to be teaching. Meanwhile families continue to breakdown because fathers whose income is dependent on drugs sales tend to be exceedingly undependable. Mothers who get paid to have children are not always the best care givers. Of course you can't get too specific because that might indicate a lack of political correctness which is the only standard to which anyone is held. The status quo always remains unaffected because no one is responsible. There is no investigation into why the media is not honest about the facts and no one cares how badly the government does anything or polices the activities of business. So even ketchup doesn't work anymore which is just as well since you probably can't get it open anyway. Everyone sits back and knows no one is to blame. We buy shoddy products from China or leave money in the banks run by those who get billion dollar bonuses but pay no interest. The country runs on inertia and the status quo and will, right up until we crash smack dab into reality.

[too-open-minded]

Crash smack dab into reality, you mean when all of our problems become overwhelming to the point we can't fix them? I don't think this is definite, it could go either way.

 

You don't like the educational system? Well I'm beggining my scientific education in psychology to help make a better educational system. I've already made a thread about it but my system would involve emotional therapy, building self esteem, and actually teaching people of their "subconscious."

 

However things take time, Martin Luther King didn't live to see his dream along with many dreamers before him fold out to the way it is now dealing with racial discretions in this country.

 

Our system has lots of flaws, people are crazy, but look how far we have come in only a few thousand revolutions of our planet around the sun.

 

 

Anyways, the subconscious isn't the problem nor is religion or anything else someone might want to give an excuse for. The problem is our instincts and our unawarness of them. You can't blame instincts either, they have gotten us to where we are today, which is pretty damn far. Their is hope though cladking. Fear is our most primitive emotion, yet were overcoming it with another and that is curiosity. We can overcome hate with love. Their is hope my friend, don't lose it or we may end up in a self fulfilling prophecy.

[cladking]

Crash smack dab into reality, you mean when all of our problems become overwhelming to the point we can't fix them? I don't think this is definite, it could go either way.

 

I didn't mean to suggest that we can't become sufficiently productive to continue to finance mountains of waste, debt, and stupidity in the short term. I merely mean that eventually a system based on waste, irresponsibility, and incompetence must fail

[too-open-minded]

I'm sure every system becomes obsolete and fails at one point or another. This doesn't mean their can't be a newer better system though. Also even if our system does fail, and we hit rock bottom. We still have a chance to bounce back from that.

 

Anyways, the subconscious. You do agree that instincts drive people and other animals to do things, correct?

[cladking]

I'm sure every system becomes obsolete and fails at one point or another. This doesn't mean their can't be a newer better system though. Also even if

Anyways, the subconscious. You do agree that instincts drive people and other animals to do things, correct?

 

No.

 

All animals including man have instincts however in almost all humans almost all instinct is subsumed by knowledge and belief. Most humans operate almost strictly on belief and most animals usually operate mostly on instinct. Animals do operate on knowledge and belief but this tends to mostly occurs when they are comfortable with a full belly and no pressing needs other than avoiding predation. On the relatively unusual occasion that humans act on instinct it's usually in the face of danger. Many individuals have very poor or repressed abilities to operate on instinct because it is buried under many layers of conditioned behavior and thought.

 

Animals are in relatively little need of beliefs (thought?) and people are in relatively little need of instinct.

 

Like everything though if you merely pay attention to it you can usually find a means to affect it in yourself.

[too-open-minded]

What is the difference between belief and instinct?

Maybe our instincts are just more complex?

[iNow]

We don't have instincts. This thread suffers from a high percentage of horseshit and misinformation.

[too-open-minded]

Atleast point it out, iNow.

[Bill Angel]

 

We don't have instincts. This thread suffers from a high percentage of horseshit and misinformation.

Don't new born babies have an instinct to suck on their mother's nipples to obtain nutrition? Edited January 26, 2013 by Bill Angel

[cladking]

What is the difference between belief and instinct?

Maybe our instincts are just more complex?

 

Perhaps instincts are something like the "beliefs of species" but I suspect most instincts are far simpler and merely involve the way the brain is wired more than the way it's constructed or what's in it at birth. I don't know and there's every chance it's far more complicated and might be an expression of DNA or the like. I say wired because most instinctive reactions seem to be very basic and primal and don't usually involkve very complex behavior. Even where the behavior may seem complex it can be seen as simple from another perspective.

 

Belief though is usally extremely complex and always involves volition. No matter what you believe you believe it because you want to. I often warn children to be careful what they believe because this will define who they are and will determine their fate. Certainly a specific belief can be simple but it will normally be applied to a set of beliefs that already make it possible. Most individuals are taught their beliefs at a young age and never change the basic patterns. Even when you aren't taught them or reject them you still end up a product of your time and place largely because of language. The brain, with its beliefs, is organized by the logic of language which becomes a "civilizing" influence. Almost all individuals in a culture tend to share a core of similar beliefs and those who don't still express themselves in similar terms. Very few people are like someone who was raised by wolves and no ancient Egyptian has ever been born in Kansas and never will be.

 

Beliefs might be thought of as a filter for straining out extraneous information to prevent obverloading thought processes. They shouldn't be or shouldn't exist but this is one of their functions. Beliefs assure you'll see things that support them and that you won't see what contradicts them. Beliefs preclude, prevent, or lower the chances of making good scientific observation.

 

Instinct is like a frog's "knowledge" that when its tongue goes out a fly comes back with it. It's belief is that if it hangs around dead meat the tongue will be more active and its belly more full. This belief might impede it's ability to survive when conditions change.

 

We don't have instincts.

 

 

Of course we have instincts. Every animal on earth (and likely every plant) has instincts. Why would humans be different?

 

People lose touch with their instincts partly because they believe they are harmful or ineffective.

 

Pay attention to your instincts and you'll find them.

[iNow]

Can someone please define the term "instinct" for me that doesn't rely on wishy washy wooey nonsensical language? Of course, humans are born with certain tendencies and predispositions, but I suspect that's not what people mean when they type the word "instinct."

[cladking]

Instinct is a nonautonomic response to stimulus that is not based on higher brain functions.

 

It's what a bird does if you walk up to it.

Edited January 27, 2013 by cladking

[Ringer]

Instinct is a nonautonomic response to stimulus that is not based on higher brain functions.

 

It's what a bird does if you walk up to it.

Not necessarily, the understanding and using of grammatical structure is instinctual and very much involves higher level brain function.

 

IIRC an instinct is an unlearned behavior common throughout a species given a specific stimulus. Usually this only includes complex behaviors because simple behaviors are considered reflexive (though I think it's a fairly arbitrary point since complex and simple behaviors aren't very well defined).

[too-open-minded]

Instinct v belief

 

Now an instinct is something like if a horse hears a noise, its going to run.

 

A "belief" is something like the desegration of the school system and human rights.

 

Now lets look at what drives instincts of animals, emotions.

A horse gets scared, it runs.

 

Now why are humans able to do things like think and overcome basic instincts? I propose that were just getting more complex instincts. We can now think in words, our own language rather than just in pictures. We have a ravenous curiosity to overcome our fears along with love and empathy to overcome anger and hate.

 

What we are doing is all still instinct, its just more complex than previous and more primitive animals instincts.

[cladking]

Instinct v belief

 

Now an instinct is something like if a horse hears a noise, its going to run.

 

A "belief" is something like the desegration of the school system and human rights.

 

If you use terminology like this it is exceedingly difficult to make true statement either general or specific about nature and reality. If you want to use these that's fine and it might be closer to the dictionary definition than the way I'm employing the terms.

 

All human activity is governed by "belief" except the tiny bit governed by instinct and the vast amount that is controlled by the autonomic nervous system. This can apply to animals as well though the proportions are different. If I believe there's something good to eat in the refrigerator I might go eat. If I believe eating between meals is unhealthy, I might not. If the phone rings as I'm getting up to eat then I'll answer it instead if I believe it's more important than food. If the house is on fire this will likely take precedence to any other activity and might even generate an instinct to run. All activity is the vector sum total of our beliefs. Sitting and thinking about metaphysics is an activity probavbly generated by the belief something can be learned or intuited.

 

I don't think of "value judgements" so much as beliefs but "applied beliefs". This is a fine distinction but if we believe discrimination is wrong because it diminishes what it means to be human then we will probably disapprove of discrimination in all cases regardless of the facts. However, we all have numerous beliefs and one of mine is that you'll catch more terrorists in turbans foaming at the mouth and screaming "death to the infidel" than you will strip searching grandmothers in airports. In such a case my "applied beliefs" is that they should be stopping the screaming lunatic instead oif the grandmother. Political beliefs are almost more refexive or instinct than even "applied belief". Action is always a vector sum total of all beliefs in sane people. When we vote for our favorite republocrat we are voting all of our beliefs even though we know we won't get what we voted for. But we believe voting otherwise is throwing our vote away. We believe in order to make a difference we have to vote the way we always have.

 

I do believe you're right about humans getting more complex instincts. It seems tool use is becoming pretty instinctive. Even driving seems to get more natural to people with each generation.

[Bill Angel]

 

Now why are humans able to do things like think and overcome basic instincts? I propose that were just getting more complex instincts. We can now think in words, our own language rather than just in pictures. We have a ravenous curiosity to overcome our fears along with love and empathy to overcome anger and hate.

 

You certainly have a positive, idealistic view of things. Much of modern politics it seems to me aims at appealing to voters' anger, to their hatreds and to their fears. Edited January 27, 2013 by Bill Angel

[cladking]

 

grammatical structure is instinctual and very much involves higher level brain function.

 

I seriously and very much doubt it. Language is simply learned at a young age and then is used as much of the template for thought. Language exists outside of higher brain functions even though most higher brain functions primarily use language and idiomatic symbolism assiociated with language.

 

Human language is not indicative of any intelligence any more than the simplicity of frog language implies a lack of intelligence. Human language is simply the result of a random mutation that created a supersized speech center. This speech center was primary cause of language and human ability to seem intelligent since we can pass down knowledge from generation to generation.

 

Humans simply are not much smarter (or necessarily any smarter) than other animals. There might be no more clever animal but this isn't the same as intelligence. Humans have a few advantages in thought with language being chief among them.

[too-open-minded]

Politics, lol lets not go there.

 

Hatred and fear has been the most prevalent emotions in our species evolutionary history, its what has kept us alive the longest. Our species gonna have to deal with it for awhile longer, although we are moving on.

[cladking]

Hatred and fear has been the most prevalent emotions in our species evolutionary history, its what has kept us alive the longest.

 

This is assumption. Logically it is observation and logic that are most suited to life rather than fear and superstition.

 

Hatred is even more life defying than superstition.

[Bill Angel]

Politics, lol lets not go there.

 

Hatred and fear has been the most prevalent emotions in our species evolutionary history, its what has kept us alive the longest. Our species gonna have to deal with it for awhile longer, although we are moving on.

Some think otherwise:

“Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear.” ~ Ambrose Redmoon

“No passion so effectively robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear.” ~ Edmund Burke.