Coriolis and Centrifugal force visualized in a rotating mass(loop)

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Right, I have read most of the Link. My whole 'intuition' feels there is something wrong here.

 

Centrifuge machine 1.jpg

 

The man is in a closed box. He is unaware what is happening outside the box. He is gripping the stout rope. Unbeknown to him there is a very large roller at the end of his rope. The whole platform is turning in a large circle anticlockwise. The large roller is gently persuaded to move with the platform turning. It gets faster and faster. The roller is free apart from the ridges.

 

What happens to the roller , (black ) ? the Rope. ? The Man holding the rope. ?

 

I think I know whats going on here. You are all repeating the same things about " there is no such thing as Centrifugal Force" because consider whats this centripetal doing........and I am repeating here the same thing YES there is a Centifugal force because feel it ..... and the Underlying Questions are not being addressed

 

WHY DOES SOMETHING WANT TO CONTINUE IN A STRAIT LINE AND REACTS WHEN YOU PUSH IT INTO A CIRCLE?

 

WHY SHOULD NOT EVERYTHING WANT TO NATURALLY WANT TO MOVE IN A CIRCULAR MANNER , AFTER ALL MANY THINGS IN THE UNIVERSE ARE CURVY?

 

IS IT INERTIA AND IF SO QUITE WHY DOES THAT WORK OUT ? HIGGS ?

 

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN CIRCULAR MOTION IS INVOKED, SAY TO THE HIGGS FIELD or ANY OTHER FIELD ( GRAVITATIONAL, SPACE, ELECTRIC, MAGNETIC, VIRTUAL PARTICLES , THE GRID [Frank Wilczec] ) are all these fixed and so circular motion is trying to buck the system, is there nothing, do they all follow the thing that is being changed[direction] Is it possible that all or some of these unseen possible influences are causing the difficulty? Certainly with me and I don't thing I am alone. .

 

EUREKA its INERTIA is bound up in the nature of matter. The structure of matter must have a set shape like sliding doors, they like to go in slithery strait lines until otherwise orientated.

 

This is what ROBIN PIKE IS TALKING ABOUT in his theory of the nature of particles as

 

" STRANDS of MOVEMENT " by Robin Pike

 

If necessary move this one post to Speculations !

Edited May 26, 2013 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

subjects like ......... need a conceptual change not more maths.

 

Perhaps there is something special that happens in circular motion ?

 

When I was a little boy I was given this hoop thing . It had a groove on the inside of the hoop that you could place a ping pong table tennis ball in. If you learned to swirl just right you could get the ball whirling around inside the hoop. When it was up and running it would take the least amount of effort to keep the thing going. Whirl, Whirl Whirl. The ball would somehow (to my little brain then) not fall out when It curved around the upper half or the hoop. Or you could turn it sideways and it ' just kept on a going'.

 

 

It fascinated me then as it was so counter intuitive . Like you fell out of your cot if your big sister turned it upside down. Water poured all over mothers table cloth if you knocked over your glass. If your bike hit a tree and went upside down, you fell off and hurt yourself. Here was something " Just because it was going in a circle it appeared to have Special rules that defied Gravity.

 

Boy ! was I hooked . and have been ever since. I still find it fascinating to be aware of Satellites zooming overhead without rockets ,cruising indefinitely in the orbits. As with the planets, Stars, Galaxies and whatever.

 

 

Maybe there is something special about the way matter responds to being held in a CIRCLE.

 

Edited May 27, 2013 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

 

Posts on the topic of science and use of maths has been moved to the thread discussing that topic

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/72725-is-mathematics-alone-a-safe-medium-for-exploring-the-frontiers-of-science-or-should-observation-and-hypothesis-lead-in-front/

 

Perhaps there is something special that happens in circular motion ?

 

Yes, there is a special condition: there is a force directed to the center of the circle. If the speed is constant, then the net force is directed to the center.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

SWANSONT said

 

Yes, there is a special condition: there is a force directed to the center of the circle. If the speed is constant, then the net force is directed to the center.

 

 

Are you saying , that if or while the angular velocity is increasing, there WILL be a centrafugal force ?

Edited May 27, 2013 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

SWANSONT said

 

 

 

Are you saying , that if or while the angular velocity is increasing, there WILL be a centrafugal force ?

 

 

No, a force perpendicular to the motion cannot change the speed: such a force does no work. If angular velocity is changing, there will be a tangential force.

[D H]

 

SWANSONT said

Yes, there is a special condition: there is a force directed to the center of the circle. If the speed is constant, then the net force is directed to the center.

Are you saying , that if or while the angular velocity is increasing, there WILL be a centrafugal force ?

 

"Centrafugal" is not a word. Did you mean centrifugal, centripetal, or something else?

 

Swansont said nothing about what happens while angular velocity is increasing. He talked about what happens if speed is constant. If speed is constant, so is angular velocity.

 

If the speed isn't constant, the acceleration will have a tangential component as well as a radial component. The radial component is still directed toward the center: centripetal. The tangential component is neither centripetal nor centrifugal. It's tangential.

[studiot]

Mike,

 

One last try to explain.

 

I have drawn three figures of a frictionless block attached to a rope.

 

In Elevation 1 the block is pulled along a horizontal ice surface at a steady speed by the rope so there is no friction.

 

What forces would you say are acting on the block ?

 

I say that the downward weight of the block is balanced by the upward reaction of the ice and that there is zero tension in the rope and that no other forces are acting.

 

**************

In Elevation2 the block is now being accelerated by the pull in the rope but everything else is as before.

 

Again what forces would you say are acting on the block ?

 

I say that the downward weight of the block is still balanced by the upward reaction of the ice. However there is now a tension in the rope causing the acceleration and that no other forces are acting.

 

Would you say there is any other force in this situation?

 

**************************

 

Now in Plan 3 the block is being swung around by the rope, still on the ice. Note that fig3 is a plan view.

 

So I say that the downward weight of the block is still balanced by the upward reaction of the ice.

 

I have shown the situation where we believe that there is a centripetal tension in the rope pulling on the block, balanced by a centrifugal force, acting outwards on the block.

 

If this is true the the resultant of the centripetal force and the centrifugal force is zero.

 

Since the resultant is zero why does the block whirl in circle and not continue in a straight line?

 

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Yes, there is a special condition: there is a force directed to the center of the circle. If the speed is constant, then the net force is directed to the center.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Circular motion v Strait line, motion ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I think I can GUESS The Feynman guess , what might be the something special in a circle. !

 

The mass ( Newtons first law ) wants to continue in a strait line. Why ? Inertia . Its this Inertial Frame raising its head. Pull the mass , with its inertial frame out of its straight line , it does not like it. It resists with a force and an accompanying acceleration from Newtons second law F=ma. FACT

 

What else does not like to be taken out of a status quo, THE GYROSCOPE of course. ( trapped angular momentum -Inertia).

So where is/are the gyroscope/s It is obvious , staring one in the face . The SPIN the entire mass is full of SPIN

However or whatever the spin is maintaied ,complex or whatever its still angular momentum SPIN

 

EVERY PARTICLE = EVERY BIT OF MASS = Inertial MASS

 

All the particles are comfortable in their own particular spin , maintained while going in a straight line, Try to pull them away or out of their strait line and every spin does resist proportional to the amount of mass involved. Got it ! Its INERTIA contained in the mass

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ IT IS THE SPIN ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

EUREKA ! The Mother Load

 

As it is a Vector quantity . The sum total over a complete revolution in a circle is Zero .

Sustained momentum ( Rotational Inertia )

 

 

 

 

 

 

I leave for Italy in 2 days Sunday 2nd June for 10 days MIKE

Edited May 30, 2013 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Circular motion v Strait line, motion ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I think I can GUESS The Feynman guess , what might be the something special in a circle. !

 

The mass ( Newtons first law ) wants to continue in a strait line. Why ? Inertia . Its this Inertial Frame raising its head. Pull the mass , with its inertial frame out of its straight line , it does not like it. It resists with a force and an accompanying acceleration from Newtons second law F=ma. FACT

 

What else does not like to be taken out of a status quo, THE GYROSCOPE of course. ( trapped angular momentum -Inertia).

So where is/are the gyroscope/s It is obvious , staring one in the face . The SPIN the entire mass is full of SPIN

However or whatever the spin is maintaied ,complex or whatever its still angular momentum SPIN

 

EVERY PARTICLE = EVERY BIT OF MASS = Inertial MASS

 

All the particles are comfortable in their own particular spin , maintained while going in a straight line, Try to pull them away or out of their strait line and every spin does resist proportional to the amount of mass involved. Got it ! Its INERTIA contained in the mass

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ IT IS THE SPIN ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

EUREKA ! The Mother Load

 

As it is a Vector quantity . The sum total over a complete revolution in a circle is Zero .

Sustained momentum ( Rotational Inertia )

And now comes the testing.

 

A gyroscope resists being tipped because of its angular momentum. But it will quite happily be translated in any direction. The inertia is not proportional to the amount of spin. The resistance to motion is proportional to mass, not angular momentum. The resistance to tipping is proportional to the angular momentum, not the mass.

 

If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

 

And now comes the testing.

 

A gyroscope resists being tipped because of its angular momentum. But it will quite happily be translated in any direction. The inertia is not proportional to the amount of spin. The resistance to motion is proportional to mass, not angular momentum. The resistance to tipping is proportional to the angular momentum, not the mass.

 

If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong.

 

Yes but we are not talking about one gyroscope , we are talking big numbers like your 'bizzillionth' ses . Anyway they are probably not gyroscopes [but acting in some respects like gyroscopes in partial arcs adding up to total mass], but clouds of buzzyness , all doing partial arcs in different directions . Nonetheless having angular momentum.

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2013 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[photon propeller]

http://news.yahoo.com/nuclear-pasta-neutron-stars-type-matter-found-113327578.html gravity spirals at all scales. the coriolis force is the spiral drag of gravity on the centripetal axis

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

The above Quote to do with the inside of Neutron Stars :

 

Clara Moskowitz June 27, 2013

 

 

A rare state of matter dubbed "nuclear pasta" appears to exist only inside ultra-dense objects called neutron stars, astronomers say.

There, the nuclei of atoms get crammed together so tightly that they arrange themselves in patterns akin to pasta shapes — some in flat sheets like lasagna and others in spirals like fusilli. And these formations are likely responsible for limiting the maximum rotation speed of these stars, according to a new study.

"Such conditions are only reached in neutron stars, the most dense objects in the universe besides black holes," said astronomer José Pons of Alicante University in Spain. [The Top 10 Star Mysteries Ever]

 

This begs investigation , and thinking about .

 

Mike

The above Quote to do with the inside of Neutron Stars :

 

Clara Moskowitz June 27, 2013

 

 

This begs investigation , and thinking about .

 

Mike

 

,Are there not hints at this in post #60 , or is this just ,whatever ?

 

Post #60

 

Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:19 PM

swansont, on 30 May 2013 - 5:36 PM, said:

And now comes the testing.

A gyroscope resists being tipped because of its angular momentum. But it will quite happily be translated in any direction. The inertia is not proportional to the amount of spin. The resistance to motion is proportional to mass, not angular momentum. The resistance to tipping is proportional to the angular momentum, not the mass.

If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong.

 

Yes but we are not talking about one gyroscope , we are talking big numbers like your 'bizzillionth' ses . Anyway they are probably not gyroscopes [but acting in some respects like gyroscopes in partial arcs adding up to total mass], but clouds of buzzyness , all doing partial arcs in different directions . Nonetheless having angular momentum.

 

 

 

Edited by Mike Smith Cosmos, 30 May 2013 - 07:21 PM.

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Does this not look like pasta, inside the Atom . ?

 

 

 

- { Italian Job ! Bunny rabbits ! I am off for a coffee some where ! } -

Edited August 13, 2013 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[studiot]

Looks like The Italian Job to me.

 

[swansont]

 

Does this not look like pasta, inside the Atom . ?

 

It looks like scribbling. Looking similar is a far cry from establishing that they are related. A cloud can look like a bunny rabbit, but clouds and bunny rabbits are not even close to being the same thing.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

 

It looks like scribbling. Looking similar is a far cry from establishing that they are related. A cloud can look like a bunny rabbit, but clouds and bunny rabbits are not even close to being the same thing.

 

Yes, but I am sure it was you that told me Neutron Stars were degraded matter. Namely the atoms had been pushed by gravity so flat that the electron shells were 'degraded' and pushed close to the nucleus. So any wiggling about they were doing in orbitals , would be concentrated near to the nucleus. [ Bit like, when you are catching a fly or bee behind a piece of paper on a window pane . The buzzing gets more intense. frequency goes up a bit ]

 

Edited August 13, 2013 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

 

Yes, but I am sure it was you that told me Neutron Stars were degraded matter. Namely the atoms had been pushed by gravity so flat that the electron shells were 'degraded' and pushed close to the nucleus. So any wiggling about they were doing in orbitals , would be concentrated near to the nucleus. [ Bit like, when you are catching a fly or bee behind a piece of paper on a window pane . The buzzing gets more intense. frequency goes up a bit ]

 

Bee trapped.jpg

 

Neutron stars are degenerate matter, where the electrons have combined with the protons to form neutrons. They aren't atoms anymore. There are no more electron orbitals, because there are no more electrons.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

 

Neutron stars are degenerate matter, where the electrons have combined with the protons to form neutrons. They aren't atoms anymore. There are no more electron orbitals, because there are no more electrons.

 

Degenerate matter no more electrons . Just Neutrons

Edited August 13, 2013 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Here is :- An attempt to reconstruct the thread on coriolis and centrifugal forces .

 

Some maths

 

.

 

Here are some recent expressions by the scientific community :-

 

The spinning ball of matter around the initial our sun is thought to have spun out into a disc of matter currently constituting the solar system , this initially due to an imbalance of gravity and centrifugal force.

 

The spinning agrigate of suns making up our galaxy the Milky Way flattened out into a disc thought to be the imbalance of gravity of suns and dark matter with the centrifugal forces .

 

The spinning universe........ Robens ....

 

Remembering that centripetal force in (gravity or gravity plus dark matter ) is equal to centrifugal force out in a balanced system .

 

Note the effect on the operator in the centiifuge .his facial skin and clothes are pushed by centrifugal action out wards , where the centripetal force is applied by the spinning device

 

 

 

 

 

Mike

Edited January 19, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos