How do chemicals in the brain result in a certain feeling? (Split from "Thalamus")

[SamBridge]

Who besides you ever said it did?

That was an assumption I made when first asking about it, I had remembered from studying somewhere that the chemical does get into the blood stream at some point and does interact with cells, however it is not clear how the actual feeling perceived is actually perceived after that specific chemical is released into whatever location. Perhaps the perception is carried by neurons but happens in a different part of the brain that only neurological signals cannot express the information to trigger, you'd need a chemical, so it travels through the blood to get to the part of the brain to trigger the impulse that is sent through connecting neurons.

Edited February 5, 2013 by SamBridge

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

SamBridge,

 

I will start this by saying that this is not an official repremand, however I am going to address something you said a few posts ago and ask that you please keep it in mind when posting.

 

The primary purpose of this site is not simply to answer questions, but to discuss science. I don't know how much clearer I can make that for you. For your own sake and for the sanity of those who have to keep repeating themselves to you, you need to remove that notion from your head. We are not here to tutor you or present full lectures on neuroscience. If that is what we did here, you'd better believe we'd be charging you for our services (FTR, I charge $AUD40 / hour for private tutoring).

 

Now granted, we have a homework section that is dedicated to answering student questions and we certainly have researchers asking questions about experimental set ups, etc. However, if one such student were to come in here and ask something vague like, 'What is Chemistry,' the response would almost certainly be, 'go read a book.'

 

And so, if you want to learn neuroscience from the ground up, I would ask that you go read a book. If you want to be tutored in neuroscience, go pay someone to tutor you in neuroscience. If you wish to have a genuine discussion about specific areas within neuroscience, then welcome to SFN.

 

If you wish to discuss this note, you know the proper channels.

[iNow]

I had remembered from studying somewhere that the chemical does get into the blood stream at some point and does interact with cells, however it is not clear how the actual feeling perceived is actually perceived after that specific chemical is released into whatever location.

 

To what specific chemical are you referring?

 

Perhaps the perception is carried by neurons but happens in a different part of the brain that only neurological signals cannot express the information to trigger

 

When you refer to "the brain," are you excluding the rest of the central nervous system? Are you referring only to the cortex, or the stem, or the reptilian parts in the center, or all of it? My main question is whether you intend to separate the brain from the rest of the central nervous system, and if so, why?

 

you'd need a chemical, so it travels through the blood to get to the part of the brain to trigger the impulse that is sent through connecting neurons.

 

What chemical specifically? Why would it travel through the blood if you're referring to an impulse traveling through connecting neurons?

Edited February 5, 2013 by iNow

[SamBridge]

http://lakesideconnect.com/anger-and-violence/how-does-anger-happen-in-the-brain/

So after much much time I found the link above. So it seems to make sense in layman terms for the most part, but it seems to be missing a few details. It says an emotional "charge". The data is sent "limbic" system if its a powerful enough of a "charge". Does this refer to an electro-magnetic charge such as that it shifts the dynamic equilibrium of a reversible reaction involving different charged ions that are broken by water or that the data get's passed throuh the brain, the signal is sent to many neurons, or if "enough" of the chemical is released and builds up, it essentially opens/overrides the gateway to the limbic system? But by what mechanism does it recognize that there is "too much" of the build up?

Then the other detail is that it says the hormones are "released", but where are they released, and upon their release, what sequence of events following leads to the perception of physical and emotional "alarm"?

Edited February 5, 2013 by SamBridge

[iNow]

Which of the questions you just asked is most important to you. Pick one. I'm not going to address them all.

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

iNow, if you don't want to answer his more specific questions, no one's forcing you to. PIck the one you feel like addressing and let someone else deal with the others if you have to, but there's no need to be hostile about it.

 

[CharonY]

The problem I see is that high level assumptions are trying to be discussed but with no foundation on which to discuss it on. As others mentioned, learning that will take longer than a few lines in a forum and as such all discussions will be superficial and inaccurate at best. Also a true specialist in this area may be able to come up with some nice analogies that will satisfy the layman (without providing specific answers, though). But I freely admit that this is outside my range of expertise.

 

That being said, perceptions or emotions are not the result of single or even few pathways, there is strong interconnection between certain neuronal activities but is also affected from feedback from the rest of the body.

The area where these sensations finally arise are located in the brain, but even that is not quite as trivial. For instance, the amygdala is associated with the perception of emotions, including fear. In people with Urbach-Wiethe disease the amygdala is dysfunctional and as a result they show e.g. only minimal levels of fear upon stimulation.

However, in these people an increase in CO2 levels still induces fear of suffocation, indicating that there are other pathways upon which the body senses and translates this sensations into a feeling.

(see Feinstein et al. 2013 in Nature Neuroscience).

 

One can speculate how things work without further reading up on the basics, but frankly, it is a bit like trying to do calculus using your fingers.

[SamBridge]

The problem I see is that high level assumptions are trying to be discussed but with no foundation on which to discuss it on. As others mentioned, learning that will take longer than a few lines in a forum and as such all discussions will be superficial and inaccurate at best. Also a true specialist in this area may be able to come up with some nice analogies that will satisfy the layman (without providing specific answers, though). But I freely admit that this is outside my range of expertise.

 

That being said, perceptions or emotions are not the result of single or even few pathways, there is strong interconnection between certain neuronal activities but is also affected from feedback from the rest of the body.

The area where these sensations finally arise are located in the brain, but even that is not quite as trivial. For instance, the amygdala is associated with the perception of emotions, including fear. In people with Urbach-Wiethe disease the amygdala is dysfunctional and as a result they show e.g. only minimal levels of fear upon stimulation.

However, in these people an increase in CO2 levels still induces fear of suffocation, indicating that there are other pathways upon which the body senses and translates this sensations into a feeling.

(see Feinstein et al. 2013 in Nature Neuroscience).

 

One can speculate how things work without further reading up on the basics, but frankly, it is a bit like trying to do calculus using your fingers.

The link I posted is essentially direct proof that neurological terms and process can be described in terms that the layman can understand, you just don't know enough about it to give an answer you are confident in, in fact you're being at least three times as vague as the article of which I asked specific questions about which not only show that I have some kind of more in depth understanding on their own but also pertain directly things found in the article.

Edited February 6, 2013 by SamBridge

[Ringer]

I suspect that you'd probably be a better tutor than I would, but I have to be honest and let you know that my time is worth a lot more than that.

Yeah, but it's still twice what they pay for being a tutor at my school. Since I tend to be broke I usually do things cheap to make sure at least someone can pay me

http://lakesideconnect.com/anger-and-violence/how-does-anger-happen-in-the-brain/

So after much much time I found the link above. So it seems to make sense in layman terms for the most part, but it seems to be missing a few details. It says an emotional "charge". The data is sent "limbic" system if its a powerful enough of a "charge". Does this refer to an electro-magnetic charge such as that it shifts the dynamic equilibrium of a reversible reaction involving different charged ions that are broken by water or that the data get's passed throuh the brain, the signal is sent to many neurons, or if "enough" of the chemical is released and builds up, it essentially opens/overrides the gateway to the limbic system? But by what mechanism does it recognize that there is "too much" of the build up?

Well, the term 'charge' here is meant as an emotional buildup from what I can tell. The hormone response is activated after the initial anger response when the sympathetic division of the autonomic nervous system comes into play. Epinephrine and other chemicals are released to initiate fight or flight responses in all areas of the body through the bloodstream while neighboring neurons in charge of fight or flight responses are activated through various neurotransmitters. Parasympathetic divisions of neurons tend to simultaneously inhibited during the initial period of the fight or flight response. These neuronal actions result in the local graded potentials of neighboring neurons causing the resting potential of the cell body to rise to or drop further below threshold at the axon hillock. If threshold is reached an action potential will cause an influx of Na+ and outflow of K+ at the nodes of Ranvier resulting in a membrane potential to rise dramatically down the axon releasing neurotransmitters into the synapse. These will then attach to receptors at the cell body or dendrites of other neurons causing a cascade effect until inhibitory signals cause the membrane potentials of the sympathetic division of the nervous system to slow down and be at a kind of equilibrium state.

Then the other detail is that it says the hormones are "released", but where are they released, and upon their release, what sequence of events following leads to the perception of physical and emotional "alarm"?

Hormones are released into the blood, neurotransmitters are released into synapses (or junctions in tissues such as muscles).

The link I posted is essentially direct proof that neurological terms and process can be described in terms that the layman can understand, you just don't know enough about it to give an answer you are confident in, in fact you're being at least three times as vague as the article of which I asked specific questions about which not only show that I have some kind of more in depth understanding on their own but also pertain directly things found in the article.

Yes they can, but not to the extent where you really understand what's going on. Do you know what in that article can be considered correct or an analogy or badly worded or anything? Those types of explanations do nothing if you really want to learn something,, they're for people who just want something said to them and then forget it tomorrow.

 

As a side note, you have seen the pinned thread that has neuroscience teaching sites linked in this part of the forum haven't you?

[SamBridge]

 

Y

Well, the term 'charge' here is meant as an emotional buildup from what I can tell. The hormone response is activated after the initial anger response when the sympathetic division of the autonomic nervous system comes into play. Epinephrine and other chemicals are released to initiate fight or flight responses in all areas of the body through the bloodstream while neighboring neurons in charge of fight or flight responses are activated through various neurotransmitters. Parasympathetic divisions of neurons tend to simultaneously inhibited during the initial period of the fight or flight response. These neuronal actions result in the local graded potentials of neighboring neurons causing the resting potential of the cell body to rise to or drop further below threshold at the axon hillock. If threshold is reached an action potential will cause an influx of Na+ and outflow of K+ at the nodes of Ranvier resulting in a membrane potential to rise dramatically down the axon releasing neurotransmitters into the synapse. These will then attach to receptors at the cell body or dendrites of other neurons causing a cascade effect until inhibitory signals cause the membrane potentials of the sympathetic division of the nervous system to slow down and be at a kind of equilibrium state.

Hormones are released into the blood, neurotransmitters are released into synapses (or junctions in tissues such as muscles). Yes they can, but not to the extent where you really understand what's going on. Do you know what in that article can be considered correct or an analogy or badly worded or anything? Those types of explanations do nothing if you really want to learn something,, they're for people who just want something said to them and then forget it tomorrow.

 

Thanks for the in-depth response, it seems to make more sense and after researching a couple things mentioned in the post I think I will have an answer satisfactory to my depth of inquiry.

Edited February 6, 2013 by SamBridge

[iNow]

Yeah, but it's still twice what they pay for being a tutor at my school. Since I tend to be broke I usually do things cheap to make sure at least someone can pay me

I completely understand, and there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. FWIW I don't think my comment about compensation was really a fair comparison anyway. I'm not a tutor, I'm not being paid as a tutor, nor am I still in school. I work for a well known multinational, so was really comparing apples and oranges above.

[Ringer]

I completely understand, and there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. FWIW I don't think my comment about compensation was really a fair comparison anyway. I'm not a tutor, I'm not being paid as a tutor, nor am I still in school. I work for a well known multinational, so was really comparing apples and oranges above.

No worries. My wife tells me I never charge enough as well, you would think she'd be happy I come cheap.

[iNow]

Sam - I suspect you're looking for an answer along the lines of the one I gave here: http://thescienceforum.org/topic1038.html

[SamBridge]

Sam - I suspect you're looking for an answer along the lines of the one I gave here: http://thescienceforum.org/topic1038.html

The start was leading into a good one but if I did not have the answer ringer posted I would be rather unsatisfied.