A lingual theory of everything

[SplitInfinity]

So you're going to take an astronomical chance to bet that the cross sections of the lines of the stars happen to intersect where hidden star is? That's hardly reliable, I can't believe I thought it was anything more than that. On top of all of that, the intersecting lines will only give you information about the position of the star relative to any star in the system, it will not tell you anything about the distance of the ship.

 

 

Oh, this must be that "civil tone" I heard you bragging about so much.

 

I didn't answer because I already walked through a method which you clearly ignored. I worked out a solution, now it's your turn.

 

Sam...you can't just use 6 RANDOM points of position.

 

Here is an example...Deep Space Probes use the 6 Points of Position method as a last resort when all other methods of determining where Earth might be have failed.

 

If such a Probe was to have it's receiver damaged or for some reason not be able to receive signals from Earth or use Pulsar or other receiver based data collection to determine positioning...the Probe will Digitally Scan the stars around it and by doing so find the 6 stars that have been PREDETERMINED for use for that specific day...as the Earth is orbiting the sun...a different 6 stars or points of position must be used every week as opposed to looking for a Star instead of Earth as for locating a Star...those 6 points will not have to be changed for Centuries or at the very least...decades.

 

The probe looks at the scanned surrounding stars and finds the six stars that have already been predetermined as to their use upon that day and by simply drawing straight lines through 3 sets of two stars in a method where all three lines cross...at that crossing will be the location of Earth.

 

Now this 6 point method is the only way such a Probe that cannot receive signals of any kind...will be able to get a fix upon the Earth.

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

Sam...you can't just use 6 RANDOM points of position.

 

Here is an example...Deep Space Probes use the 6 Points of Position method as a last resort when all other methods of determining where Earth might be have failed.

 

If such a Probe was to have it's receiver damaged or for some reason not be able to receive signals from Earth or use Pulsar or other receiver based data collection to determine positioning...the Probe will Digitally Scan the stars around it and by doing so find the 6 stars that have been PREDETERMINED for use for that specific day...as the Earth is orbiting the sun...a different 6 stars or points of position must be used every week as opposed to looking for a Star instead of Earth as for locating a Star...those 6 points will not have to be changed for Centuries or at the very least...decades.

But how could you possibly "predetermine" that info with your method in the first place? A very large flaw, and with still no guarantee whatsoever that the intersecting lines will be even close to the star you want, they will intersect wherever they want regardless of the star you want them to intersect at.

[SplitInfinity]

But how could you possibly "predetermine" that info with your method in the first place? A very large flaw, and with still no guarantee whatsoever that the intersecting lines will be even close to the star you want, they will intersect wherever they want regardless of the star you want them to intersect at.

 

Sam...as per my example with the stars I listed in Orion...instead let's use Earth's Sun as the celestial body instead of the Hidden Star System.

 

We can use 6 stars...and we would pick 6 stars of Bright Magnitude...that are located around and near our Sun at a distance at the furthest of 100 light years...and choose the brightest and closest within this 100 Light Year Sphere. These stars must be picked in pairs that will detail 3 axis when the lines are drawn through them and existing upon each line will be the Sun and where all three lines intersect must be the Sun's position.

 

100 Light Years is just a goal as this allows a reasonable distance to find very bright in magnitude stars but if the 6 point position system will be used by a spacecraft that will not be at any great distance from the Sun...4 to 10 Light Year distances and lower magnitude stars can be used as long as these stars are able to be seen and identified at the crafts distance from the Sun...so it is possible to use MULTIPLE 6 Point System using different groups or partial combinations of multiple groups depending upon the possible distance the craft will be from the Sun.

 

There are PLENTY of Stars in the local area as well Bright Magnitude Galaxies such as M-31...can be used so we could easily have many 6 point star groupings and use various ones depending upon the approximated distance the craft will be from the Sun. Even if the people in the craft don't know how far away they are...a computer could digitally scan the stars and within a very short time compare a number of 6 Point Groupings to find out where they were approx. and where Earth's Sun is.

 

Now as I said...this system is being used NOW...as it is an easy way for a Probe to locate say Earth or Earth's Sun...and Earth's 6 Point Grouping would change dependent upon what day or week it is...if that Probe has catastrophic failure of it's Antenna or Receiver. With a damaged antenna or receiver the probe could not get a Radio Signal Fix or use Pulsar Emissions...to be able to find Earth if so damaged.

 

So a Probe could simply take a Digital Scan of the surrounding Stars...as such Probes all have such Picture or Video capability...and then the probe would use such a scan or scans and locate such groupings and then know exactly where to point the dish to send back data to Earth.

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

Sam...as per my example with the stars I listed in Orion...instead let's use Earth's Sun as the celestial body instead of the Hidden Star System.

 

We can use 6 stars...and we would pick 6 stars of Bright Magnitude...that are located around and near our Sun at a distance at the furthest of 100 light years...and choose the brightest and closest within this 100 Light Year Sphere. These stars must be picked in pairs that will detail 3 axis when the lines are drawn through them and existing upon each line will be the Sun and where all three lines intersect must be the Sun's position.

And there's no guarantee that intersection will happen exactly where you want it, it's also much less efficient that the method I stated. If you're doing something like launching a space craft even just to orbit, being off by 1 mile could throw everything off.

[SplitInfinity]

And there's no guarantee that intersection will happen exactly where you want it, it's also much less efficient that the method I stated. If you're doing something like launching a space craft even just to orbit, being off by 1 mile could throw everything off.

 

Sam...the 6 Stars or Celestial bodies are CHOSEN SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE WHEN 3 LINES ARE DRAWN BETWEEN 3 PAIRS OF THE BODIES...THE LINES CROSSING POINT WILL INTERSECT AT THE EARTH'S SUN.

 

These points or stars are chosen specifically because no matter where the Probe might be as far as it's angle or reasonable distance...at least within 100,000 cubic parsecs....using these 6 points or stars from any angle drawing these lines will locate where the SUN is located...or where Earth is located and as I have stated...with the Earth...different groups of 6 points must be used dependent upon what day or week it is.

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

Sam...the 6 Stars or Celestial bodies are CHOSEN SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE WHEN 3 LINES ARE DRAWN BETWEEN 3 PAIRS OF THE BODIES...THE LINES CROSSING POINT WILL INTERSECT AT THE EARTH'S SUN.

But how do you know those stars create lines that intersect where you need without doing the proper calculations in the first place? Even if you have a 3-D map you need to plug in the right data so the map get's it right.

Edited June 9, 2013 by SamBridge

[SplitInfinity]

But how do you know those stars create lines that intersect where you need without doing the proper calculations in the first place? Even if you have a 3-D map you need to plug in the right data so the map get's it right.

 

Of course you have to do the calculations to know that such stars paired will allow lines to be drawn intersecting the specific celestial body or point...and this must be done as to have each line be specific to each needed axis or detail each of the thee dimensions needed.

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

Of course you have to do the calculations to know that such stars paired will allow lines to be drawn intersecting the specific celestial body or point...and this must be done as to have each line be specific to each needed axis or detail each of the thee dimensions needed.

Which cannot be done with your method. This also points out something else: If you can calculate those stars without your method, why not other stars like the "hidden" star?

[SplitInfinity]

Which cannot be done with your method. This also points out something else: If you can calculate those stars without your method, why not other stars like the "hidden" star?

 

OK...Sam...your not getting this.

 

Yes if a craft or probe could receive EM generated emissions then the craft or probe would not need to use the 6 points method.

 

The 6 points of position are already predetermined and the craft and probe would have the stored data of many of such 6 point groupings depending upon the craft or probes mission.

 

It is only in the case that a probe or craft has a downed antenna or broken or fried receiver that by just taking a digital scan of the surrounding stars the craft or probe could use the stored 6 point grouping data to find an intended course or direction to send a radio signal.

 

The six point grouping would be determined beforehand and they could be determined by a variety of methods.

 

But in the case of catastrophic receiver or antenna failure...this 6 Point System allows the craft or probe a simple method given what said craft or probe now has the capacity to do given the problem.

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

OK...Sam...your not getting this.

 

Yes if a craft or probe could receive EM generated emissions then the craft or probe would not need to use the 6 points method.

 

The 6 points of position are already predetermined and the craft and probe would have the stored data of many of such 6 point groupings depending upon the craft or probes mission.

 

It is only in the case that a probe or craft has a downed antenna or broken or fried receiver that by just taking a digital scan of the surrounding stars the craft or probe could use the stored 6 point grouping data to find an intended course or direction to send a radio signal.

 

The six point grouping would be determined beforehand and they could be determined by a variety of methods.

 

But in the case of catastrophic receiver or antenna failure...this 6 Point System allows the craft or probe a simple method given what said craft or probe now has the capacity to do given the problem.

 

Split Infinity

But even if you had 200 million stars, there is still no guarantee that any 3 pairs of stars will intersect exactly where you need them to, they will only intersect wherever they happen by chance to intersect. Looking at the size of space and the fact you could fit every observed star in a sphere from here to Proxima Centari, I would say the chances are pretty slim.

[SplitInfinity]

But even if you had 200 million stars, there is still no guarantee that any 3 pairs of stars will intersect exactly where you need them to, they will only intersect wherever they happen by chance to intersect. Looking at the size of space and the fact you could fit every observed star in a sphere from here to Proxima Centari, I would say the chances are pretty slim.

 

Sam....there are more than enough stars to do this and even if you were trying to locate a star on the very outer rim of our Galaxy....even in the unlikely chance this star you needed to find was at a position on the very outer arm of our Galaxy and because of this there were not a large enough pool of Bright Magnitude Stars to pick from for use in the 6 Point System...nearby Galaxies such as M-31 and others could be used.

 

Even if by the VERY UNLIKELY chance that the star you needed to find or go to did not have 6 nearby stars bright enough for use to be located from a distance...other stars could be used that would pin point a location at a specific angle and distance from the star you needed to go to or find.

 

Thus using 6 points which when determined by computer scan and then since once you know what 6 stars you are looking at you would then know by their Magnitude approx. how far away you were and by knowing which stars are which of the 6...you would know to what angle or vector you were to the Hidden or Too Distant and Dim to see Star.

 

At this point a second set of determining coordinates would be added as once the computer analyzes the pattern of the 6 stars seen from your craft or a probes location...it will know what coordinates to give you to determine where the hidden star is from the 6 point crossing...such as from point S...point S being the crossing point of the three lines between 3 groups of the 6 stars....from point S...at so many degree X,Y and Z ...is located Point D...point D being the Determining Point of the Star you need to locate or find.

 

So in this way using the 6 point positioning system will allow you to know where know where you would send a signal or what direction to travel to reach that hidden star.

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

Sam....there are more than enough stars to do this and even if you were trying to locate a star on the very outer rim of our Galaxy....even in the unlikely chance this star you needed to find was at a position on the very outer arm of our Galaxy and because of this there were not a large enough pool of Bright Magnitude Stars to pick from for use in the 6 Point System...nearby Galaxies such as M-31 and others could be used.

 

Even if by the VERY UNLIKELY chance that the star you needed to find or go to did not have 6 nearby stars bright enough for use to be located from a distance...other stars could be used that would pin point a location at a specific angle and distance from the star you needed to go to or find.

 

Thus using 6 points which when determined by computer scan and then since once you know what 6 stars you are looking at you would then know by their Magnitude approx. how far away you were and by knowing which stars are which of the 6...you would know to what angle or vector you were to the Hidden or Too Distant and Dim to see Star.

 

At this point a second set of determining coordinates would be added as once the computer analyzes the pattern of the 6 stars seen from your craft or a probes location...it will know what coordinates to give you to determine where the hidden star is from the 6 point crossing...such as from point S...point S being the crossing point of the three lines between 3 groups of the 6 stars....from point S...at so many degree X,Y and Z ...is located Point D...point D being the Determining Point of the Star you need to locate or find.

 

So in this way using the 6 point positioning system will allow you to know where know where you would send a signal or what direction to travel to reach that hidden star.

 

Split Infinity

But with only the information of intersecting lines, you have no way of knowing how far away the hidden star is from your intersection which is a mere approximation of the general region with no guarantee it will be in the same vicinity. You don't seem to understand that if we don't know already where the hidden star is, we cannot determine how far away it is from the intersecting lines and thus it is not reliable for any sort of accuracy. There is still the point of why you wouldn't use the same methods you used to calculate those 200 million stars on the hidden stars rather than intersecting lines. How did people find the distance of the first 5 stars? Your method wouldn't even work.

[SplitInfinity]

But with only the information of intersecting lines, you have no way of knowing how far away the hidden star is from your intersection which is a mere approximation of the general region with no guarantee it will be in the same vicinity. You don't seem to understand that if we don't know already where the hidden star is, we cannot determine how far away it is from the intersecting lines and thus it is not reliable for any sort of accuracy. There is still the point of why you wouldn't use the same methods you used to calculate those 200 million stars on the hidden stars rather than intersecting lines. How did people find the distance of the first 5 stars? Your method wouldn't even work.

 

OK...your question is EXACTLY what I must explain to you for you to understand this.

 

The 6 stars or galaxies that are used to draw 3 lines through 3 pairs of them and at these three lines crossing is the point of the hidden star...are stars or galaxies that have ALREADY...prior to a probe or spacecraft leaving Earth...been determined as to their distance from Earth...their Magnitude and Color...their DISTANCE AND ANGLES to the Hidden Planet...and this Hidden Planet is already known to it's distance and angle to Earth...as well these stars or galaxies were chosen AHEAD OF TIME...as they were chosen because of their Bright Magnitude and because they could be used as those 6 points of position to locate the visually

hidden star...from great distances and all angles away from that star.

 

So say it was our SUN that a Deep Space Probe was traveling away from and this probe would be traveling through the OORT CLOUD at the edge of our solar system. Since the OORT CLOUD can obscure direct visual contact with our sun if a craft or probe was within it or had it between the craft or probe and the sun...and if the only method available was to use the 6 point system because of catastrophic failure of other triangulation methods or a lack of ability to receive signals...by simply scanning the surrounding stars we could locate a pattern of 6 previously plotted and determined stars to find the position or plot a course or know the direction to align a dish to send a signal to our sun.

 

Now how do we know that these 6 stars can be used for finding our sun? Because we have already chosen these stars and these stars were SPECIFICALLY CHOSEN because when a line is drawn through 3 pairs of these 6 stars in a manner that all three lines cross...at that crossing point will be located the SUN.

 

We chose the 6 stars in groups of two and each group of 2 is specific to detail one of the 3 dimensions of 3-D Space so that no matter from what distance as long as these 6 stars are visible...and no matter from what angle the craft or probe might be from this 6 star grouping...there will always be ONLY ONE WAY TO DRAW 3 LINES BETWEEN 3 GROUPS OF TWO STARS FROM THE TOTAL OF 6 STARS SO THAT ALL THREE LINES CROSS AT A SINGLE POINT.

 

And of course at this point lies the SUN in this case.

 

So Sam...in this case...in order to choose the 6 stars we must already know where the sun is...we must already know the distances between the 6 stars and the sun...we must already have chosen 3 groups of 2 stars where each group of two stars is in a direct straight line at either side of the sun and that all three groups of 2 stars and the three STRAIGHT LINES drawn from one star in each of these three groups of two will INTERSECT THE SUN and that straight line will continue to the OTHER STAR in that group of two....AND ALL THREE LINES INTERSECT THE SUN AT VECTORS DETAILING 3 DIMENSIONAL STATES or 3 axis to allow us to know FROM ANY POSITION OR ANGLE AWAY FROM THE SUN....where the sun is located.

 

OK?

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

OK...your question is EXACTLY what I must explain to you for you to understand this.

 

The 6 stars or galaxies that are used to draw 3 lines through 3 pairs of them and at these three lines crossing is the point of the hidden star...are stars or galaxies that have ALREADY...prior to a probe or spacecraft leaving Earth...been determined as to their distance from Earth...their Magnitude and Color...their DISTANCE AND ANGLES to the Hidden Planet...and this Hidden Planet is already known to it's distance and angle to Earth...as well these stars or galaxies were chosen AHEAD OF TIME...as they were chosen because of their Bright Magnitude and because they could be used as those 6 points of position to locate the visually

hidden star...from great distances and all angles away from that star.

Ok, so why wouldn't you use the method you used to calculate those 6 stars stars to calculate the hidden star? Your method is rather pointless. Again, there is still no guarantee whatsoever the lines will intersect exactly where you want them to.

Edited June 10, 2013 by SamBridge

[arc]

I think I just found the replacement for water-boarding.

[SplitInfinity]

I think I just found the replacement for water-boarding.

 

Tell me about it.

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

I think I just found the replacement for water-boarding.

Actually in enhanced interrogation of people like terrorists the interrogators will often do things like question the religion of the terrorists and point out flaws in it.

[SplitInfinity]

Ok, so why wouldn't you use the method you used to calculate those 6 stars stars to calculate the hidden star? Your method is rather pointless. Again, there is still no guarantee whatsoever the lines will intersect exactly where you want them to.

 

OK...Sam...I will try for the last time to explain this and why you need the 6 Point System.

 

To answer your above question...The reason the 6 Point System is needed and why either a person or the probe would not use a method of Triangulation is...THEY CAN'T!

 

This is the whole reason why a Probe or Manned Space Craft would have in their Computer Files as well as in the manned crafts case...PAPER FILES....detailing out a multitude of 6 Points of Position Stars or other Celestial Bodies for the purpose of being able to locate and plot a course to...say...Earth...or in in the future...a Radio Relay Station or perhaps Moon or Planet in another Star System where either a Manned Base was located or pre-positioned emergency supplies.

 

The WHOLE POINT OF HAVING A PRE-CALCULATED 6 POINTS OF POSITION LOCATION AND COURSE CHART AND PLOT SYSTEM...is for when a Space Craft either Manned or a Probe has CATASTROPHIC SENSOR FAILURE or AN INABILITY TO RECEIVE SIGNALS OR DATA...thus it would be impossible to receive a LOCATION BEACON SIGNAL or receive PULSAR EMISSIONS to orient the Space Craft or Probe.

 

With a 6 POINTS OF POSITION SYSTEM....if such catastrophic failure occurred all a probes computer or a person would have to do is scan the surrounding stars and this could be done by digital scan or BY EYE...compare the magnitudes and colors of the stars and compare stellar groupings...find the 6 stars needed by computer or by using a chart...draw lines through 3 pairs of 2 stars and where all three lines cross will be the location of whatever Celestial Body a probe or person either needs to travel to or send a signal.

 

The 6 Points or celestial bodies used HAVE ALREADY BEEN PRE-DETERMINED. From no matter what angle or distance...as long as that distance is not too far away to visually detect the stars by either digital scan or by eye...when those three lines are drawn...IN THE ONLY WAY ALL THREE LINES WILL CROSS ONE ANOTHER...at the crossing point will be what the probe or person is looking for.

 

Triangulation or other methods of getting a fix or plotting a course...ARE NOT POSSIBLE due to such catastrophic failure but with a 6 Points of Position system...you can always figure out where either a probe or person needs to travel to or send a signal.

 

OK Sam?

 

I don't think I have anything left in me to explain this again.

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

OK...Sam...I will try for the last time to explain this and why you need the 6 Point System.

 

To answer your above question...The reason the 6 Point System is needed and why either a person or the probe would not use a method of Triangulation is...THEY CAN'T!

So how do you think we calculated the first star distances before we had any sort of "probe"?

[SplitInfinity]

So how do you think we calculated the first star distances before we had any sort of "probe"?

 

Those stars were calculated by using the method you described as well as documenting Magnitude, Star Color...etc.

 

Sam...this has NEVER been about challenging Triangulation or using Pulsars or using Radio Signals to pinpoint location. This has always been about how to find an object or point of position in 3-D Space when Triangulation was not possible.

 

My very first post to you referring to the 6 Point System was just a way of...feeling you out...to see if you knew what I was referring to. Because of the way I posted to you...you assumed I was stating that using 6 points of position was the only way to know the distance or location of a celestial body or point was from you or a point.

 

Using the 6 Point system is the only way...using just visual data and geometry...and without having the ability to send or receive an EM Signal...to find a hidden celestial body or point as well as plot a course to that body or point.

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

Those stars were calculated by using the method you described as well as documenting Magnitude, Star Color...etc.

 

Sam...this has NEVER been about challenging Triangulation or using Pulsars or using Radio Signals to pinpoint location. This has always been about how to find an object or point of position in 3-D Space when Triangulation was not possible.

 

My very first post to you referring to the 6 Point System was just a way of...feeling you out...to see if you knew what I was referring to. Because of the way I posted to you...you assumed I was stating that using 6 points of position was the only way to know the distance or location of a celestial body or point was from you or a point.

 

Using the 6 Point system is the only way...using just visual data and geometry...and without having the ability to send or receive an EM Signal...to find a hidden celestial body or point as well as plot a course to that body or point.

 

Split Infinity

I have a feeling you can always draw a triangle between any three points. If you already have the data of thousands of stars and you know their angles and distances relative to the hidden star, you don't need any intersecting lines, you just use law of sines and cosines.

[SplitInfinity]

I have a feeling you can always draw a triangle between any three points. If you already have the data of thousands of stars and you know their angles and distances relative to the hidden star, you don't need any intersecting lines, you just use law of sines and cosines.

 

Sam...you must first figure out where you are relative to where you want to go or need to send a signal.

 

The easiest way of doing this without being able to triangulate is to identify a group of 6 stars and this will tell you where to go or broadcast as well as at what angle you are to it .

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

Sam...you must first figure out where you are relative to where you want to go or need to send a signal.

 

The easiest way of doing this without being able to triangulate is to identify a group of 6 stars and this will tell you where to go or broadcast as well as at what angle you are to it .

 

Split Infinity

Using 6 points surrounding a star itself only gives you the info about the hidden star relative to those 6 stars and probably some info about that star's position from Earth.

[SplitInfinity]

Using 6 points surrounding a star itself only gives you the info about the hidden star relative to those 6 stars and probably some info about that star's position from Earth.

 

The 6 Point Positioning System not only allows you to find the star or celestial body those 6 point detail but since each of those 6 points or celestial bodies had to be predetermined as to their position from Earth's SUN as well as from each other in order to be certain their use would detail out the star or body they have been selected for....once the 6 stars have been identified as to their angle and distance from the hidden star thus also is known the six star groupings angle to your craft...this grouping can be compared to other groupings close to the crafts position or by simply comparing the size and brightness to your position of known stars within that 6 star grouping your distance from those stars or hidden star can be determined.

 

Split Infinity

[Bignose]

Sam...this has NEVER been about challenging Triangulation or using Pulsars or using Radio Signals to pinpoint location. This has always been about how to find an object or point of position in 3-D Space when Triangulation was not possible.

Split, perhaps you should re-read your own posts

There is only ONE POSSIBLE WAY....by using ONLY GEOMETRY...to find the position of an object....and that objects position is at this point unknown....in any 3-D Space.

you shouted (all caps) some very strong statements at one point there. I don't mind you changing your position, but I wouldn't advise trying to revise history.