Personification versus science.

[reverse]

Sometimes it seems easier to think about and predict the actions of man by considering the behaviour of say “Mars god of war” than by calculating all the political minutia involved in world politics.

 

Is behaviour easier to understand if it is isolated then wrapped up in a human form?

Thoughts?

[xom]

No................. In science our observations are given meaning by what are know and predictable patterns of behaviour of what ever we are studying

There are no such rules to predict human behaviour. We continue to attempt to do this but really apart from the very basics there’s no clear way of predicting how individuals, groups or societies will act.

Psychology has a go at understanding behaviour at the level of the individual, but to my mind this is inadequate because it negates outside influences like social grouping.

Sociology is great for explaining the behaviour of groups within particular settings and takes account of important factors such as political systems , social class , religion and wealth, however the behaviours of individuals can not be adequately predicted or accounted for.

It appears that we are better at predicting and understanding the behaviour of everything else and that we are still a mystery to ourselves. This, I don't feel is a bad thing.

[reverse]

Yes, good point.

 

Do you suppose we are really being directed by our subconscious,

Then later on - our conscious self makes up logical reasons to justify our actions?

[Glider]

Yes, in many cases this is true. This is the basis of modern determinism.

[xom]

I'm not sure that its so straight forward. To begin with, there is no real definition of what it means or what it is to be conscious and therefore the sub conscious is also a bit of a mystery too. We have knowledge of how we process thoughts and about how some behaviours are more likely than others in a given situation , however it would be useful to know what we are really dealing with when we refer to the conscious and sub conscious and then there’s also collective conscious which Im sure we all accept exists but what’s all that about?

My views I'm afraid steer away from logic when looking at consciousness because I believe logical thought although a necessity in our quest to discovery the meaning of everything, inhibits the sub conscious which is part of the life force that makes up this universe, so in some respects yes I believe that the sub conscious drives us but that the conscious mind limits us. Am I nuts or what !

[Ophiolite]

then there’s also collective conscious which Im sure we all accept exists but what’s all that about?

No. Unless you define it in such general terms as to render it meaningless I see no evidence for it. Are you just trying to provoke discussion?

[TrueHeart]

No comment

[xom]

No evidence for a collective consious ?

when an audience claps or cheers or boo's.

Mass grief and mourning of an individual.

This week £60 million donated to the Asia earthquake by the people of one nation.

[LucidDreamer]

No evidence for a collective consious ?

when an audience claps or cheers or boo's.

Mass grief and mourning of an individual.

This week £60 million donated to the Asia earthquake by the people of one nation.

That’s not what I usually think about when I hear the term collective consciousness. If a group of people were to begin mourning an individual without hearing about his death through traditional media or through word of mouth then that would be evidence for what I think of as collective consciousness. Usually the term collective consciousness is related to ESP. All the examples that you gave would be examples of similar emotional states of many individuals that have scientific explanations.

[Coral Rhedd]

Isn't the collective unconscious a Jungian thing? An example would be that almost all cultures have flood myths and why would this be so if there was not a collective unconscious.

 

Couldn't it be argued that God (assuming there is one -- or two -- or three) a product of the collective unconscious. For instance, why is God in most religions male? Isn't that part of a collective unconscious?

 

Or is the collective unconscious simply reflective of culture and nothing more?

[Sayonara]

No evidence for a collective consious ?

when an audience claps or cheers or boo's.

Mass grief and mourning of an individual.

This week £60 million donated to the Asia earthquake by the people of one nation.

None of that is due to collective consciousness, unless you have your own definition of the term.

[LucidDreamer]

Isn't the collective unconscious a Jungian thing? An example would be that almost all cultures have flood myths and why would this be so if there was not a collective unconscious.

 

Couldn't it be argued that God (assuming there is one -- or two -- or three) a product of the collective unconscious. For instance' date=' why is God in most religions male? Isn't that part of a collective unconscious?

 

Or is the collective unconscious simply reflective of culture and nothing more?[/quote']

Most early civilizations were dependent on agriculture. A major common disaster during that period was a flood. Saying that flood myths are evidence for collective consciousness is like saying that kings and royalty are evidence for the collective unconscious. If all these cultures were separate then why did they all have similar political systems? Because its a natural product of their common lives and environment. Most religions are polytheisms with both male and female deities. The king of the gods is usually a male because the king of man is usually male.

[Coral Rhedd]

Good points LucidDreamer, but then what is a collective unconscious? I was not so much defining as asking.

 

I think there must be more involved than ESP or so many people would not have written so much about it. I am not saying I believe in it. I have always been rather skeptical about it but it is hard to discuss a concept that seems to lack a definition.

 

Take a look at these:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=collective%20unconscious

 

collective unconscious

n.

In Jungian psychology, a part of the unconscious mind, shared by a society, a people, or all humankind, that is the product of ancestral experience and contains such concepts as science, religion, and morality.

 

http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/margin/glossary.html

 

COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS: A form of the unconscious...common to humanity as a whole and originating in the inherited structure of the brain...According to Jung, the collective unconscious contains archetypes (see archetype), or universal primordial images and ideas. Thus, archetypical criticism regularly identifies literary power with the presence of certain themes that run through the myths and beliefs of all cultures. (MW)

[LucidDreamer]

Interesting. It is interesting when you look at it from a scientific viewpoint. I know that chimpanzees have only a few "purely" instinctual behaviors, compared to the bulk of animals, and two of them are the fear of water and of snakes. Perhaps there are deep patterns in the mind of man that lead to certain ideas and beliefs rather than a blank slate. Maybe it’s not only culture and environment that results in certain common themes of mankind.

 

Then again I think we were talking about collective "consciousness," which is like a group ESP.

[Coral Rhedd]

I think the idea of a collective unconscious can only be speculated upon not proven. To me, it is sort of creepy. It sort of reminds me of what science fiction writer Orson Scott Card calls a "hive mind."

 

Of course the original post is about personification and I question whether any construct that delineates human behavior could be anything but personification eventually. In some ways doesn't division and classification of human behaviors always disintegrate into caricature. Spend enough time with the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual and you will soon be pigeonholing people like crazy. All nuances disappear. Why is comparing an annoying person with his hand on your butt to Zeus any less accurate than deciding they are a sociopathic sexual predator? In the moment, we see what we want to see.

 

But we persist in pretending psychiatrists are objective with a little book in their hands.

[reverse]

it is a bit creepy if you think of it like that.

 

but by pure reason,

 

if there is a collective conscious.

 

and everyone with a conscious also has a subconscious.

 

and the subconscious interacts with and reflects the conscious.

 

then there must be a collective subconscious.

 

connected and updated by the very normal means of history and language and art and films and TV and the internet.

 

a good example of this, a few months back an African king released all his slaves, his reason" I felt that the breeze of democracy was blowing through the world"

[Ophiolite]

No evidence for a collective consious ?

when an audience claps or cheers or boo's.

Mass grief and mourning of an individual.

This week £60 million donated to the Asia earthquake by the people of one nation.

So you are' date=' as I suspected, [i']defining it in such general terms as to render it meaningless. [/i]

[Ophiolite]

Why is comparing an annoying person with his hand on your butt to Zeus any less accurate than deciding they are a sociopathic sexual predator?

Or the Governor of California.

[Coral Rhedd]

Or the Governor of California.

 

Good one.

 

Sadly, all political parties have sociopaths. In fact the career of politician probably attracts them because lying for the fun of it is a sociopathic characteristic.

[Ophiolite]

In fact the career of politician probably attracts them because lying for the fun of it is a sociopathic characteristic.

Now you tell me! A wasted career opportunity (honestly).

[coquina]

I would say that one of the traits of collective conscious is the desire to form groups. It is probably an ancestral "safety in numbers" thing. However, people have discovered that when you have a group, it has to have a leader.

 

How people select their leader is downright screwy. Again, it must be more than what the leader says, leaders must have something that goes right down to the primal collective conscious that allows people to be led by a "strong" individual.

 

I think the prime example of this is Hitler. How in the world did he convince the german population the "Aryan" characteristics - tall, blonde, and blue eyes were superior to people who were short, dark haired and brown eyed, especially given that he was one of the latter?

[john5746]

it is a bit creepy if you think of it like that.

but by pure reason' date='

if there is a collective conscious.

and everyone with a conscious also has a subconscious.

and the subconscious interacts with and reflects the conscious.

then there must be a collective subconscious.

connected and updated by the very normal means of history and language and art and films and TV and the internet.

a good example of this, a few months back an African king released all his slaves, his reason" I felt that the breeze of democracy was blowing through the world"[/quote']

 

The collective conscious I think is due to our human instincts. We have repressed many of them, but they do affect our behaviour. Forming groups, selecting leaders, selecting sexual partners, curiosity, etc. This doesn't mean we are "connected" in some way anymore than dogs humping legs on different continents are connected.

[Kelton]

The definition of subconscious (and conscious) are subject to a variety of interpretations. This alone makes the use of the term somewhat questionable as one forms other theories based upon such a foggy term. It may be altogether unnecessary. To say that our "subconscious directs our behavior" seems to make sense, but it's a bit too convenient and doesn't really explain the behavior.

 

This forum is called "Science Forums and Debate".....so, I'm being 'debate-ee'!

[Hellbender]

Good point. As a matter of convenience I feel it is certainly easier to pigeonhole a plethora or behaviors and actions into one personified entity. This, and the fact that religion is a potent form of social control is what make belief in the supernatural so ubiquitous in human societies.