The Strength of Faith

[SplitInfinity]

Splitinfinity,

 

In the Tankity Tank joke, faith in the impossible was successful. Surprisingly the stategy backfired as the enemy impossibly countered.

 

It speaks to Phi's OP. It supports Phi's OP. Why have faith in the most impossible thing you can think of. As the joke shows, once you are into lala land, all it takes is someone also into lala land to trump you. Like playing rock paper scissors. Your solid rock is covered and defeated when paper is thrown. And the paper, while stronger than rock, can't stand up to the scissors, which is broken by the rock.

 

My God is better than your God, seems to be the biggest problem we Atheists have with the thinking of Theists.

Praying is an internal conversation as far as an Atheist is concerned. While there is evidence that internal strength can be summoned, there is no evidence that an external force can be contacted and petitioned, by having an internal conversation.

Except maybe in the sense that a prayer may associate with actual real powers that one can allign themselves with, and affect reality, by unspoken pact and alignment with such.

 

I read the Koran, twice. Once to get the gist, and once for comprehension, after the 9/11 attack, to get an understanding of why such evil as was evident to me that morning, watching the pillar of black smoke rising from lower Manhattan, could have been spawned by a book. (After learning that a believer in Allah had purposely orchestrated the destruction and death). My take a way, was that Mohammed had usurped the power of Allah, and associated himself with it. This is on the one hand, perfectly understandable, as that we all are associated with this power, this greater reality thing that created us, that we are in and of, from which we have emerged, and to which we will return...BUT on the other hand, our internal association with it gives us no unique link, and Mohammed's insistence that disbelieving in the messenger was the same as disbelieving in Allah, was the underlying mark of insanity, or irrationality, or impossibility, that showed me the flaw that ultimately brought down my twin towers.

 

The ALL, by definition, is on everybody's side. There are no chosen people, there are not believers and unbelievers, there are no Secrets of the Vedas, there is not a special key held by any one man. Religions define "a way". They say this way is THE WAY. It is evident to me, being the Great Satan standing in the way of all the world being for Allah, that someone has gotten their wires crossed. Someone has faith in an impossible thing. And its not me.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

Tar...I am an Agnostic and I personally don't care what a person has or doesn't have as far as religious beliefs. I also don't consider havinf faith an issue unless that faith causes a person to stop fighting and give up self determination to some percieved Higher Power as my favorite quoted passage would be...GOD helps those who help themselves...LOL! THAT is a reality...GOD existing or not.

 

I have seen some VERY F'd up things. Things and events that I had hoped I would never even think about never mind having a ring side seat to. The one very BLARING AND GLARING lesson I have taken away from this is...if you are praying and waiting for some GOD to save you instead of using what time you have to think and plan of every possible scenario of events that could play out in your favor given your ability to act....YOU WILL SOON BE DEAD.

 

Sure...sometimes...surprising events and results happen but there is always a REASON for why they happen. People declare things a MIRACLE when something occurs that has but the tinniest of possibilities and due to this...events swing to a conclusion that would seem to be an impossibility and then they are labeled as an act of GOD or a Miracle.

 

When you look at this scientifically....we have the reality that...IF SOMETHING CAN HAPPEN...IT WILL HAPPEN...and given enough of a timeline...even One in a Million odds drop to zero. Something like this happened to me while working in the field.

 

I was a Problem Solver and I was and am very good at it. One day I made a mistake that luckily did not cost the life of any of my team...but it almost cost mine. I should have seen it coming earlier and long story short...I was shot...multiple times at close range. I was wearing an Ultra-Light Vest that was not standard issue as we travel light and fast and a regular vest with steel plates and all the trimmings is just too heavy for what we do.

 

Because of the close range...there was balistic penetration and I went down HARD. When a person see's something like that coming and knows they are probably going to die...your life DOES NOT flash before your eyes...you do not see some heavenly figure and you do not obtain some form of enlightenment. What happens as you see it coming is say out loud...Oh S#! Then...after you go down...ANGER, Rage, Extreme Purpose. I turned on my side...used a team members body part, balanced my rifle and ended the threat. Then...PAIN in the extreme. If it had not been for this High Tech. vest that acts like a Chinese Finger Puzzle in that it CATCHES the rounds...but not completely...I would have been dead.

 

The FAITH I had that saved me was faith in my team members to know what to do. Faith that they would not panic...Faith that I could handle the pain as to take any Synth-Morph would have probably killed me one way or the other as we were deep in country and had quite a way to go just to get picked up....and FAITH in the fact if it was my time...I certainly was not going to spend what time I had left groveling and crying about how unlucky I was or cursing some GOD as to...WHY ME?

 

Now I am not saying I don't believe in a GOD...it would be nice...but I have not seen any conclusive evidence to prove it. So in the mean time...I will live life happy and grateful to have done so many things and experienced so much. But I WILL NOT...start going on based upon some books religious dogma due to some thought that if I do not I will not go to some kind of heaven.

 

Thing is...if we die...and that is it...it would not be so bad. If there is an afterlife...what a NICE BONUS.

 

Split Infinity

[Typist]

Cool thread, thanks. Still working my way through the posts, but this seemed the place to start. Apologies, but I'm finding the quote function here almost impossible to use, the post editor quite trying, so for now this won't be ideal.

 

Phil For All said, "Believing so strongly in things that have the least amount of evidence to support them seems ludicrous to me."

 

I would suggest starting with this question. What is your goal in considering this question?

 

Are you attempting to understand faith, or express your feelings about it?

Edited April 4, 2013 by Typist

[Phi for All]

Phil For All said, "Believing so strongly in things that have the least amount of evidence to support them seems ludicrous to me."

 

I would suggest starting with this question. What is your goal in considering this question?

 

Are you attempting to understand faith, or express your feelings about it?

 

Faith is too subjective for me to gain some kind of "understanding" of it. 100 people will give you 100 versions of what it means to them. My feelings I've already expressed. What I still don't comprehend is how so many people can talk about their belief in the supernatural using a word like "faith", which many of them define as unquestioning, unwavering, utterly confident and complete belief.

 

Where is this strength coming from? No one can has given me anything but feelings as a basis for such strength. I can understand why someone could be so confident that the sun will rise tomorrow, or that there will be an aggressive reaction if baking soda and vinegar are mixed. Where do they get the confidence that their god is watching over them, when they can easily justify anything that happens as "God's will"? I can literally make up anything to worship and then claim everything is happening according to "The Plan".

 

Where is the strength for this belief coming from? Is it because so many other people have followed the religion of their parents? That's a cultural phenomenon, based on where you were raised. When I really push for meaning I eventually get, "My faith comforts me, and that gives it value". I have no problem with that, but I don't think that's really faith. I think that's hope instead.

 

The FAITH I had that saved me was faith in my team members to know what to do. Faith that they would not panic...Faith that I could handle the pain as to take any Synth-Morph would have probably killed me one way or the other as we were deep in country and had quite a way to go just to get picked up....and FAITH in the fact if it was my time...I certainly was not going to spend what time I had left groveling and crying about how unlucky I was or cursing some GOD as to...WHY ME

 

I would say that was TRUST, not FAITH. You know these people, and the training they've had. You know the equipment and what it can and can't do. If you could TRUST it 100%, that would seem like FAITH, but you can't, can you? You've had people and equipment fail before, and that means your TRUST isn't complete and unwavering, but it's enough to count on in a tight situation.

 

Knowing the capabilities of people around you, knowing how the world works and what can be considered probable, these are issues of TRUST, and I can assign varying degrees of strength to them. But unwavering FAITH in the supernatural? How can that kind of belief be so strong without a whole lot of fooling yourself?

[tar]

Phi for All,

 

I agree with you on the "plan" thing, in the way you expressed it, in the previous post.

I think I know what you are talking about, and its the "kind" of faith, that makes no sense to me, either.

 

If there WAS an all powerful being ruling the universe, there is no reason to believe that it would have human type intentions, or a human timeframe, or human frailities. In fact, if a prerequisite for an all powerful, all knowing, eternal consciousness of some sort, is that he/she or it would already know how everything was going to turn out, then you could hardly call it a plan. A plan is a human thing, a planned series of actions, designed ahead of time, to be executed in reality, over a time period in the future, with a certain desired outcome in mind. A plan would be completely unrequired for a being to whom the outcome was already certain. A plan can go wrong, or be poorly executed, or be a bad plan. How could God have one of these human things called a plan? What contingentcies would he/she it, be "planning" for? What goal or outcome could a being of this sort have, or hope for? He/she or it would have nothing to accomplish, no way to fail, nobody to impress, and no one who would care one way or another about his/her or its idea. He/she or it would not have human reason or human reasons, or be subject to any reasoning at all. God would not have a way to be concerned about the future, or a way to learn something from the past.

 

He/she or it would not have a "plan". So what meaning could "its all part of God's plan" possibly have? Nothing that ever happened, is happening, or will happen would make any difference to God. And nothing could be a surprise, or an acheivment...to God. So it makes no sense to have faith in God's plan, because there either is not all powerful, all knowing, eternal God, or there is a God with no plan.

 

Regards, TAR2

[SplitInfinity]

.

 

I would say that was TRUST, not FAITH. You know these people, and the training they've had. You know the equipment and what it can and can't do. If you could TRUST it 100%, that would seem like FAITH, but you can't, can you? You've had people and equipment fail before, and that means your TRUST isn't complete and unwavering, but it's enough to count on in a tight situation.

 

Knowing the capabilities of people around you, knowing how the world works and what can be considered probable, these are issues of TRUST, and I can assign varying degrees of strength to them. But unwavering FAITH in the supernatural? How can that kind of belief be so strong without a whole lot of fooling yourself?

 

I don't see how the word FAITH cannot be used and is basically the same thing in meaning as the word TRUST.

 

NOTHING can obtain 100% Trust or Faith.

 

People can say this is so...but it is not as one can fool themselves into thinking so but deep down...logic won't allow it.

 

Split Infinity

[Ringer]

I don't see how the word FAITH cannot be used and is basically the same thing in meaning as the word TRUST.

Because that's equivocation.

NOTHING can obtain 100% Trust or Faith.

 

People can say this is so...but it is not as one can fool themselves into thinking so but deep down...logic won't allow it.

 

Split Infinity

People die and kill because they have faith they will be rewarded for it. If that's not 100% the difference is so minuscule that it doesn't really matter.

[SplitInfinity]

Because that's equivocation.

People die and kill because they have faith they will be rewarded for it. If that's not 100% the difference is so minuscule that it doesn't really matter.

 

You know there are many reasons...some honorable...some not...as far as dying and killing.

 

I pity the person who has not sufficient conviction to either kill or die to protect the ones they love.

 

Split Infinity

[Ringer]

You know there are many reasons...some honorable...some not...as far as dying and killing.

 

I pity the person who has not sufficient conviction to either kill or die to protect the ones they love.

 

Split Infinity

And that is a straw-man. I never said there aren't reasons for killing or dying, nor did I say those people killed or died to protect the ones they loved. I said they did so because they had faith they would be rewarded for doing so.

[SplitInfinity]

And that is a straw-man. I never said there aren't reasons for killing or dying, nor did I say those people killed or died to protect the ones they loved. I said they did so because they had faith they would be rewarded for doing so.

 

And you base this upon what possible proof?

 

Not that I wouldn't be happy if there was an afterlife or GOD...I would be. But if there is...it would most likely be something VERY different than what we think or believe it might be.

 

I personally have an issue with the concept of REWARD or PUNISHMENT in an afterlife as far as the result of anything one might do. Even though people have choice...such choices are driven by genetics and conditions. I have experienced dealing with people that one would label EVIL...and to be honest...I would label them as such. Still people are still very much animals and are tied to our insticts.

 

Split Infinity

[Ringer]

And you base this upon what possible proof?

 

Not that I wouldn't be happy if there was an afterlife or GOD...I would be. But if there is...it would most likely be something VERY different than what we think or believe it might be.

 

I personally have an issue with the concept of REWARD or PUNISHMENT in an afterlife as far as the result of anything one might do. Even though people have choice...such choices are driven by genetics and conditions. I have experienced dealing with people that one would label EVIL...and to be honest...I would label them as such. Still people are still very much animals and are tied to our insticts.

 

Split Infinity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr#Some_historic_famous_martyrs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_suicide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

etc

Edited April 5, 2013 by Ringer

[tar]

Ringer,

 

Thought of a sideways way of looking at this question this morning.

 

If God is either non existent, or existent and has no plan in mind, then what is it, that a human being is "getting ready for"?

 

We can get ready for dinner, get ready for sex, get ready for the opera, or get ready to go to work.

 

How do we get ready to die?

 

Could this idea, be the underlying thing we are talking about? Not whether or not there is a god, but whether or not we have faith in the thing we are getting ready for. Having faith in the one area of live that it makes no sense to have any faith in at all, that period of life, after life.

 

Every still has a concern if they are ready to die. If they have done everything they should have done. If the way for others has been prepared properly. It has nothing to do with God, just something to do with the need for one.

 

Regards, TAR2

[SplitInfinity]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr#Some_historic_famous_martyrs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_suicide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

etc

 

Somehow...I lost a reply so I will reply again.

 

What you have posted for links is not proof. No proof can be given as no proof exists.

 

Split Infinity

[Villain]

Where is this strength coming from? No one can has given me anything but feelings as a basis for such strength.

 

What do these people mean by the word 'feelings'? Are they referring to emotion, as in happiness/sadness is the basis of faith or is it something else?

[Phi for All]

I don't see how the word FAITH cannot be used and is basically the same thing in meaning as the word TRUST.

 

NOTHING can obtain 100% Trust or Faith.

 

People can say this is so...but it is not as one can fool themselves into thinking so but deep down...logic won't allow it.

 

Split Infinity

 

I apologize, I thought you had read the whole thread. I've been going into (nauseating) detail about how I felt there was a need to differentiate between types of belief.

 

I've heard lots of people talk about their utter, complete belief in their god and they call it FAITH. In this unwavering regard, it seems like it's supposed to be 100%, all the time, because questioning it makes them feel like they've "lost" their faith.

 

I think the way people believe in empirically supported phenomena, building their belief in them with observation and experience, seems more like TRUST. It's never 100%, and it's always based on things we see happening around us and science is the tool we use to understand them better. Trust is scalable, and it seems to me like trust is capable of more actual "strength" than faith is. I can bet my life on my driving skills, the laws governing the roads and my car's capabilities and so I trust myself to get behind the wheel every day.

 

For things I want to believe in, but have no actual support for, I call that HOPE. I hope I will win big-time at the weekly poker game, but I can't know for sure so I'm not going to go out and spend my winnings prematurely. For any supernatural explanation I want to believe in, at most it would be hope, never trust and certainly not faith.

 

So I guess I agree with you when you say no one can actually have faith, since that would be 100% belief. It seems strong when you say it's 100% belief, but that belief is built on nothing but feelings since there is no actual evidence to support supernatural explanations for anything. I think people who claim to have faith are fooling themselves.

 

What do these people mean by the word 'feelings'? Are they referring to emotion, as in happiness/sadness is the basis of faith or is it something else?

 

Feelings is my word, not theirs. Since there is nothing empirical about supernatural explanations, what is faith based on? It seems to me like it's based solely on the feelings of the believer, supported only by the feelings of other believers, who get together to express their feelings about what they believe in. They have their books, handed down for centuries, translated and re-translated, full of flaws but also full of stories that reinforce the feelings each religion wants followers to have.

 

I hear the reasoning behind such feelings and it seems like religion is all about making people feel confident in hoping they will be blessed or allowed to live eternally or be healed of a malady. Religious leaders know the more confident people are about something that has nothing tangible to support it, the harder they will defend it and the more they will feel good about it. Religious leaders have become artists in the area of confidence, imo.

[SplitInfinity]

Phi...some people very much need to have or believe in Faith especially as it relates to religion. I have faith in my abilities as well as have faith in some others that I know well...but in these cases it is NOT BLIND FAITH as I am basing such faith upon knowns.

 

Some have a deep seated need...or perhaps it is fear...fear of the unknown that without their ability to place Blind Faith in a religion or GOD...their ability to function from a psychological aspect depends upon it.

 

I personally do not have such issues...but MANY do.

 

Split Infinity

[Phi for All]

Phi...some people very much need to have or believe in Faith especially as it relates to religion. I have faith in my abilities as well as have faith in some others that I know well...but in these cases it is NOT BLIND FAITH as I am basing such faith upon knowns.

 

Some have a deep seated need...or perhaps it is fear...fear of the unknown that without their ability to place Blind Faith in a religion or GOD...their ability to function from a psychological aspect depends upon it.

 

I personally do not have such issues...but MANY do.

 

Split Infinity

 

I realize I'm more or less forcing my definitions on everyone, but it's only to make the distinctions that are prevalent when people talk about belief. You say you have faith in your abilities, but your belief in them is not what I would call faith. It's trust, because you've trained, you've experienced, you have some sort of actual, observable basis for your belief, but you also know it's limitations.

 

The way many "people of faith" talk about their beliefs, it's 100% but I don't see how they can give that much strength to beliefs that have no empirical basis. Granted, many people, including you, seem to make no distinction between faith and trust and hope, but I feel there are important differences. People of faith talk about Truth with a capital T, they have The Answer, and they believe it with utter conviction. How can that not be different from trust or hope?

[Ringer]

Ringer,

 

Thought of a sideways way of looking at this question this morning.

 

If God is either non existent, or existent and has no plan in mind, then what is it, that a human being is "getting ready for"?

 

We can get ready for dinner, get ready for sex, get ready for the opera, or get ready to go to work.

 

How do we get ready to die?

 

Could this idea, be the underlying thing we are talking about? Not whether or not there is a god, but whether or not we have faith in the thing we are getting ready for. Having faith in the one area of live that it makes no sense to have any faith in at all, that period of life, after life.

 

Every still has a concern if they are ready to die. If they have done everything they should have done. If the way for others has been prepared properly. It has nothing to do with God, just something to do with the need for one.

 

Regards, TAR2

No, you are still equivocating. I get ready to for dinner based on prior evidence that I have had dinner and the trust that I will have dinner again. That is not faith as it is used in the OP.

 

Somehow...I lost a reply so I will reply again.

 

What you have posted for links is not proof. No proof can be given as no proof exists.

 

Split Infinity

FFS, I don't even know what you're arguing against. Are you really saying that these people didn't die or kill for their faith? If that's not what you're saying you're not responding to what I am saying.

[SplitInfinity]

I realize I'm more or less forcing my definitions on everyone, but it's only to make the distinctions that are prevalent when people talk about belief. You say you have faith in your abilities, but your belief in them is not what I would call faith. It's trust, because you've trained, you've experienced, you have some sort of actual, observable basis for your belief, but you also know it's limitations.

 

The way many "people of faith" talk about their beliefs, it's 100% but I don't see how they can give that much strength to beliefs that have no empirical basis. Granted, many people, including you, seem to make no distinction between faith and trust and hope, but I feel there are important differences. People of faith talk about Truth with a capital T, they have The Answer, and they believe it with utter conviction. How can that not be different from trust or hope?

 

Ahhh! My FAVORITE words that the Religious cannot seem to understand have VASTLY DIFFERENT MEANINGS!

 

Those words being...TRUTH...AND...FACT.

 

A person can say...It is a TRUTH that GOD exists. But they cannot say...It is a FACT that GOD exists.

 

A TRUTH is not a FACT. A Truth is subjective and is specific to what a person believes to be a truth.

 

A FACT is a FACT and will always remain so...ifit does not...then it was never a FACT and should have never been labeled as a FACT.

 

Although I respect the right of a person to believe what they will...I cannot respect a person that makes a point to force their ideals and faith upon others especially after a person tells them...NO THANK YOU.

 

Many times I have been presented with so called evidence that some will label as the TRUTH in an attempt to prove the existance of a GOD or presented with TRUTHS to evangalise their religion. This bugs me to no end.

 

Since I am a person of logic and reason I once had a very funny meeting with two very well dresses people...a Man and Woman who rang my door bell at 8:45 am in the morning. Since I am a touring musician and even when not touring I will be at my Recording Studio working late into the night and early morning...that day...about 6 am in the morning and I had just fell asleep and had had a few too many that night.

 

These two people started saying this and asking that and as I attempted to focus my very blurry eyes and attempt from falling over as I was still drunk...I asked them...HEY! You two believe that...what...440,000 of you will be taken up in the Rapture..right?

They said yes and kept talking. I interupted them and said...your religion...it has what...5 or 6 MILLION members? They said VERY proudly...YES! We are all doing a good job spreading the word!

 

I then smiled at them and said...Well...I guess you guy's are going to have to draw straws or something! I mean...6 Million of you...only 440,000 seats on the Heaven Train...I guess you guy's are probably not going to make it? I mean...what are the odds you will get to Heaven? ONE IN ABOUT THIRTEEN?

 

LOL!!!! They got quiet...they got pale at first and then BEET RED! Then I added...but hey...look at the bright side...at least HELL will have plenty of room for you waiting.

 

Funny but for some reason...I no longer get people coming to my house carrying books and panflets. LOL!

 

Split Infinity

[tar]

Split Infinity,

 

Pretty quick figuring for a half asleep drunk. You must have been prepped, have thought about that before. Sort of a talking point.

 

A very excellent one, I might add.

 

Might add it to my repetroir of sensible things that counter the impossible beliefs of those well dressed folk.

 

If that is all we are talking about here, then you have won the argument and I concede.

 

Regards, TAR2

Ringer,

 

Equivocating yes. But I still consider whether I am ready to die. Whether I have done everything I should of. Whether I am "doing it right" or not. And I currently concern myself often with preparing myself for the eventuality of my father's passing, as his heart is not as strong as it used to be, and he is nearing that last decade that people are known to normally not surpass.

 

What is still true and valuable and meaningful, after he dies? And of that, what is still true and valuable and meaningful after I die?

 

I do not think I am the only person to ever consider these things. I rather think there is no one, who has not.

 

Regards, TAR2

[Ringer]

Ringer,

 

Equivocating yes. But I still consider whether I am ready to die. Whether I have done everything I should of. Whether I am "doing it right" or not. And I currently concern myself often with preparing myself for the eventuality of my father's passing, as his heart is not as strong as it used to be, and he is nearing that last decade that people are known to normally not surpass.

So you're purposefully obfuscating the issue?

What is still true and valuable and meaningful, after he dies? And of that, what is still true and valuable and meaningful after I die?

 

I do not think I am the only person to ever consider these things. I rather think there is no one, who has not.

 

Regards, TAR2

I'm sure everyone has considered this things, and I'm just as sure that their considerations on the matter are just as meaningless as the others. The answers are, everything that was true before you die is true after. You don't have an effect on reality's objectivity. Value and meaning are subjective, since you will be dead there will be no value or meaning after you die for you.

[Iggy]

life, after life... It has nothing to do with God, just something to do with the need for one.

 

I was stumbling around this thread, and I bumped into this gem. I have to say, Tar -- you couldn't have described your affection for God more purely, or perfectly, or honestly than you just did.

 

Your belief in God, and your excuses for anything religious, have nothing to do with God.

 

They have everything to do with your need for one.

 

Very self-aware, that was.

 

Bravo,

 

Carry on...

Edited April 7, 2013 by Iggy

[tar]

Ringer,

 

I had come to that conclusion, about my will and consciousness not being anymore, once I die, a long time ago. That is the basis of my personal ability to tell when a person is believing an impossible thing. The promise of the 100 virgins, or the boiling oil is a silly thing. My flesh cannot burn if it has no nerves or brain to feed the sensations to. I need not worry about those things. Not in any literal fashion. Which leaves only the figurative way I will continue, after I am dead.

 

There are real ways, that this will occur. I have posted, I have spoken, I have built things, I have repaired things, I have followed rules and principles and conducted myself in the view of others, in ways that worked, that had meaning and purpose, and value. As Iggy said, I should carry on.

 

In addition, I have daughters and nephews and grand nephews and neices, cousins and the like, that will carry on the genes and memes of my Grandparents. And I will be in the memories of everyone alive after I die, that I ever touched.

 

There were two famous poems I remember reading in 5th grade. I only remember a couple of lines of each. "For whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee." and "Into the valley of death, rode the 600".

 

On 9/11, Jeremy Glick, a person I did not know, from my town, realized the plane he was on was a guided missle, heading for a Washington D.C. target. He and his comrades brought the plane down.

 

Who or what do you figure Jeremy Glick had faith in?

 

Since there is nothing imaginary worth that effort and sacrifice, it must have been us, he had in mind.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

I still tear up when I think of his courage and sacrifice for us.

 

How do you thank someone who is no longer alive?

[Phi for All]

On 9/11, Jeremy Glick, a person I did not know, from my town, realized the plane he was on was a guided missle, heading for a Washington D.C. target. He and his comrades brought the plane down.

 

Who or what do you figure Jeremy Glick had faith in?

 

To me, it greatly diminishes Mr Glick's accomplishment to think he did what he did because he thought his god demanded it of him. If I could make such a sacrifice, I wouldn't want it to be remembered as an act of "faith".

[john5746]

On 9/11, Jeremy Glick, a person I did not know, from my town, realized the plane he was on was a guided missle, heading for a Washington D.C. target. He and his comrades brought the plane down.

 

Who or what do you figure Jeremy Glick had faith in?

 

Since there is nothing imaginary worth that effort and sacrifice, it must have been us, he had in mind.

In regards to Jeremy Glick, from what I understand, he had knowledge of the fact that the flight was doomed. That is why he took action that would almost guarantee the deaths of those aboard. The terrorists did not intend to land safely. So maybe he had faith in himself and a few others to defy the odds and overtake the plane. Maybe he said a short prayer for his loved ones or maybe asked god to help him get out of this one alive. But, he took action, he did not wait for jesus to take the wheel.

 

In this case, he was trying to avoid taking out more lives on the ground. But people do sacrifice for the imaginary all the time. If it is real in your head, then that is all that matters. This is why it is important not to believe in mythology. You can enjoy it, even be inspired, but don't really believe it.

[Iggy]

He and his comrades brought the plane down.

 

No, they didn't. It's disrespectful to say that. They did nothing to bring that plane down.

 

 

Who or what do you figure Jeremy Glick had faith in?

 

Apparently, himself. He didn't pray for God to intercede. He didn't beg for mercy. He took his life in his own hands and fought for it.

 

edit: sorry, John. You beat me to all that

Edited April 8, 2013 by Iggy