Should violent criminals be castrated?

[Grockel]

The purpose of prison is to reform criminals, however this is not always possible. Many criminals repeatedly break the law and are undeterred by the prospect of punishment. There are several factors believed to contribute to criminal behavior, one important factor being high testosterone levels. It has been proven that testosterone is linked to aggression, in 1990 James Dabbs studied 4,462 men and concluded that "the overall picture among the high-testosterone men is one of delinquency, substance abuse and a tendency toward excess." Even in women, Dabbs found high testosterone levels were related to crimes of unprovoked violence. Statistically men commit significantly more crimes than women, specifically violent crimes.

We know that castration can drastically alter an animals behavior, most notably by reducing sex drive and aggression. Not all aggression is caused by testosterone, however the University of California found that in 60% of dogs aggression could be treated with castration. Castration also causes sterility which, considering the inability of prisoners to raise their children, may be an added bonus.

Violent criminals destroy their lives and the lives of others, is society not morally obliged to save them from themselves via castration?

[ydoaPs]

Let's see, only 60% OF DOGS were effectively treated by castration? Let's even set aside that that was a study about dogs. Is a chance of working that is just above a coin flip worth the extreme consequences of castration? This is especially absurd when you factor in the prior probability of a patient's aggression being caused by high testosterone. Maybe the correlation on that one is reversed too; perhaps high aggression can cause increased testosterone levels.

There's really no reason to think that such a drastic measure is justified.

[imatfaal]

I would also argue that your opening statement "The purpose of prison is to reform criminals..." is also very debatable. Perhaps this was the case in the past but I think retribution ranks higher on most people's lists of the purpose of incarceration. Certainly if rehabilitation or reform was the major motivating factor one would struggle to understand the logic or actions of penal systems on both sides of the atlantic which have consistently lowered money and resources available for eduction, counselling, and to prevent recidivism. The increasing number of prisoners held in aging cramped facilities, the rise in unchecked aggressive prisoner interaction, and the use of mandatory sentencing all seem to point to other reasons for imprisonment.

 

It is a sorry state of affairs - but I would place a desire for prisoner sequestration from the public; revenge pure and simple; and a need to generate profit for private prison owners all higher on a list of the "purpose of prison" in the minds of most citizen, the government and the prison regulators

[John Cuthber]

 

Seriously, there is roughly as good a reason that the offenders should castrate the society.

 

The US has the highest incarceration rates in the world.

That strongly suggests that there is something abouut their society which leads to increased criminality.

In any individual case you can say "He didn't have to comit that crime" but, in general some poor soul did.

 

Incidentally, the post immediately above this one as I write is a spam advert for a mesh screen door. It makes more sense than the OP.

[Moontanman]

Hmmm... I can think of a criminal who needs to be castrated... does that count?

[ydoaPs]

 

Seriously, there is roughly as good a reason that the offenders should castrate the society.

 

The US has the highest incarceration rates in the world.

That strongly suggests that there is something abouut their society which leads to increased criminality.

In any individual case you can say "He didn't have to comit that crime" but, in general some poor soul did.

Indeed.

Incidentally, the post immediately above this one as I write is a spam advert for a mesh screen door. It makes more sense than the OP.

What post? Seriously, we're not omnipresent, so please report any spam you see that makes it past the filters.

[Bill Angel]

Castration also causes sterility which, considering the inability of prisoners to raise their children, may be an added bonus.

Violent criminals destroy their lives and the lives of others, is society not morally obliged to save them from themselves via castration?

Castration sounds like one of those "cruel and unusual punishments" that would be held to be unconstitutional.

[Mr Monkeybat]

As all other attempts at punishment or rehabilitation of criminals fail to prevent the majority of criminals from going on to commit more often worse crimes. The only other realistic solutions to prevent them re offending are indefinite detention or euthanasia. So I am 100% for the castration of criminals, especially all repeat offenders.

 

Criminal tendencies are also highly heritable so preventing criminals from breeding is a bonus for future generations.

 

Castration sounds like one of those "cruel and unusual punishments" that would be held to be unconstitutional.

Any punishment is unusual if the law does not mandate it, as soon as the law mandates it it become standard practice and quite usual. All punishments are cruel otherwise they are not punishments by definition. So all and all that is quite a silly thing to write in your constitution.

[John Cuthber]

"The only other realistic solutions to prevent them re offending are indefinite detention or euthanasia."

Why have you given up on society?

[Bill Angel]

Any punishment is unusual if the law does not mandate it, as soon as the law mandates it it become standard practice and quite usual. All punishments are cruel otherwise they are not punishments by definition. So all and all that is quite a silly thing to write in your constitution.

If one looks at the history of punishments in Europe before the drafting of the US Constitution, it's easy to understand why the drafters of the US Constitution included that clause.

[imatfaal]

As all other attempts at punishment or rehabilitation of criminals fail to prevent the majority of criminals from going on to commit more often worse crimes. The only other realistic solutions to prevent them re offending are indefinite detention or euthanasia. So I am 100% for the castration of criminals, especially all repeat offenders.

As I and others have said there is not that great an attempt at rehabilitation - as amount of violent crime is often positively correlated with harshness of penal system you have to begin to wonder which is cause and which is effect. It is almost impossible to make simple judgments on these matters but if I had to provide a soundbite sized opinion it would be that violent individualistic societies have high rates of crime and draconian punishments for even non-violent criminals and that non-violent communitarian societies have low rates of crime and seek to educate/treat all criminals.

 

 

Criminal tendencies are also highly heritable so preventing criminals from breeding is a bonus for future generations.

Wow - I am close to Godwinising this thread.

 

Any punishment is unusual if the law does not mandate it, as soon as the law mandates it it become standard practice and quite usual. All punishments are cruel otherwise they are not punishments by definition. So all and all that is quite a silly thing to write in your constitution.

 

No no and no.

 

America has a constitution which in simplistic terms acts as a higher entrenched law that all parts of the state (including the law-makers) have to respect (apart from the extraordinary and difficult process of constitutional amendment); this means that means of punishment ordained by law can be unconstitutional.

Punishments are intended to unpleasant perhaps, certainly inconvenient and not desirable - but not cruel which implies a design to inflict undue pain and suffering and is absent a usual amount of human decency.

And if is far from a silly thing to write in a constitution - in fact it is in the UK Bill of Rights from the 17 century, and I believe a similar line exists in the revolutionary and post-revolutionary French constitutions.

 

 

...The Subject’s Rights.

 

And thereupon the said Lords Spirituall and Temporall and Commons pursuant to their respective Letters and Elections being now assembled in a full and free Representative of this Nation takeing into their most serious Consideration the best meanes for attaining the Ends aforesaid Doe in the first place (as their Auncestors in like Case have usually done) for the Vindicating and Asserting their auntient Rights and Liberties, Declare

...

That excessive Baile ought not to be required nor excessive Fines imposed nor cruell and unusuall Punishments inflicted.

 

If one looks at the history of punishments in Europe before the drafting of the US Constitution, it's easy to understand why the drafters of the US Constitution included that clause.

Looks as if we cross-posted. Quite so - the punishments of the ancien regime in Europe were deliberately designed to be cruel and glorify in that cruelty. It seemed to be part of absolute monarchy - so in the UK we mostly got rid of that form of sadistic theatricality prior to the rest of Europe (Magna Carta helped a bit, then Commonwealth, then Glorious Revolution)

[ydoaPs]

As all other attempts at punishment or rehabilitation of criminals fail to prevent the majority of criminals from going on to commit more often worse crimes. The only other realistic solutions to prevent them re offending are indefinite detention or euthanasia. So I am 100% for the castration of criminals, especially all repeat offenders.

That's actually not true. American prisons, for example, aren't meant for rehabilitation, but rather, retribution. Norway, though, has their penal system based on rehabilitation, and theirs works.

[swansont]

What do you when you find the man has been wrongly convicted? Death-penalty false convictions run at least 2%, and those have additional scrutiny on them. What of lesser charges that aren't inspected quite so closely?

[michel123456]

What do you when you find the man has been wrongly convicted? Death-penalty false convictions run at least 2%, and those have additional scrutiny on them. What of lesser charges that aren't inspected quite so closely?

castrated.

(that was sarcasm)

 

i don't understand

the OP (Should violent criminals be castrated?)

was about dogs

or other animals like women?

 

(that was sarcasm again)

 

To me the OP'oster is an animal.

 

(you know what it is)

[John Cuthber]

That's actually not true. American prisons, for example, aren't meant for rehabilitation, but rather, retribution. Norway, though, has their penal system based on rehabilitation, and theirs works.

I understood that the US prison system was designed to make money. That's consistent with very poor rehabilitation rates and a very high proportion of the population in prison.

 

Financially speaking, the prison service is a great success.

[Moontanman]

I understood that the US prison system was designed to make money. That's consistent with very poor rehabilitation rates and a very high proportion of the population in prison.

 

Financially speaking, the prison service is a great success.

 

 

While I abhor the idea of prison for profit it does seem to be a growing trend in the USA and some extreme abuses have already been found. But strictly speaking the US prison is State Run, but the privately owned ones are gaining in popularity among Conservatives... From my stand point it's like watch a slow motion film of a plane crash... past a certain point you know what is going to happen but the crash cannot be avoided... this unholy alliance of politics, capitalism, and religion has got to be stopped...

[Consistency]

Castration stems from the same type of controlling mentality as circumcision.

 

There are several factors believed to contribute to criminal behavior, one important factor being high testosterone levels.

 

The human body isn't that simple. Testosterone injections cause aggression because they cause an hormonal imbalance. Hormonal imbalances cause depression, apathy, irritability, and aggression in everyone.

 

High testosterone levels with all the other hormones in balance leads to decisive behaviour.

 

Did you know that the birth control pill causes aggression in women?

 

The problem isn't the criminals. The problem is our diets are lacking in fat soluble vitamins. Fat soluble vitamins are scientifically known to stimulate the production of hormones and neurotransmitters in the required amounts. How many people in the world eat their leafy greens for Vitamin A/K and get sun exposure for Vitamin D?

Edited February 26, 2013 by Consistency

[John Cuthber]

Castration stems from the same type of controlling mentality as circumcision.

 

 

The human body isn't that simple. Testosterone injections cause aggression because they cause an hormonal imbalance. Hormonal imbalances cause depression, apathy, irritability, and aggression in everyone.

 

High testosterone levels with all the other hormones in balance leads to decisive behaviour.

 

Did you know that the birth control pill causes aggression in women?

 

The problem isn't the criminals. The problem is our diets are lacking in fat soluble vitamins. Fat soluble vitamins are scientifically known to stimulate the production of hormones and neurotransmitters in the required amounts. How many people in the world eat their leafy greens for Vitamin A/K and get sun exposure for Vitamin D?

If you removed the bollocks from this post there wouldn't be much left.

[Consistency]

If you removed the bollocks from this post there wouldn't be much left.

 

put your money where your mouth is.

[ydoaPs]

!

Moderator Note

Let's keep it civil. Rule 1 always applies.

[Bill Angel]

The problem isn't the criminals. The problem is our diets are lacking in fat soluble vitamins. Fat soluble vitamins are scientifically known to stimulate the production of hormones and neurotransmitters in the required amounts. How many people in the world eat their leafy greens for Vitamin A/K and get sun exposure for Vitamin D?

Vitamin D deficiency has been linked with anxiety and depression.

There also seems to be a correlation between anxiety, major depression and criminal behavior. So it seems plausible that if someone improved their diet to eliminate a vitamin D deficiency, it could also have the effect of reducing their level of anxiety and episodes of major depression, factors contributing to criminal behavior. Such individuals that were drug abusers would of course also need to stop drinking alcohol and snorting cocaine for any improvement in their diet to have a positive impact on their behavior.

[Grockel]

You all make good points. What about sedation as an alternative to castration? Would it be justifiable to sedate criminals with drugs to make them more docile?

[overtone]

Just a couple months ago my local paper reminded us (in a story on false confessions) of this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_Jogger_case - several young men acquitted of brutal rape due to new evidence (including conclusive DNA linkage to the real perp), after years in prison.

 

These young men were of course black and poor, a couple with police records, and they had confessed to the crime after extended interrogations by the New York police.

 

This kind of case is pretty common - mistaken eyewtiness, false confessions, shoddy police work, emotional trial atmosphere. And most cases do not have DNA evidence to put the nail in the coffin of the former presumptions.

 

I'm pretty sure they would have been castrated had it been legal to do so.

 

As far as diet, there is no correlation between vitamins and violence. There is a strong correlation between lead exposure in early childhood and violent crime later - a correlation that holds across cultures and time periods worldwide, and tracks the rise and fall of leaded gasoline motor fuel almost exactly with a lag of about 17 years. The Chinese are just now entering their phase of large scale leaded gasoline exposure - the prediction is for serious trouble beginning when the current baby crop hits their late teens.

Edited February 28, 2013 by overtone