Taking choice away

[dimreepr]

Aha, im not doin a very good job here lol, i didnt want to imply you *ALWAYS* have to kill your own meat, just that if your not capable of killing an animal your obviously sentient enough to not need processed meat.....its almost like they couldnt do it themselves so they hide it away, out in the countryside where they cant see the animal get killed. I have 3 criteria i think people should tick before buying meat.....if they dont they shouldnt.

 

 

Do you need the meat to survive?

Can you kill your own meat?

Had that animal had a free life?

 

In some respects I agree with you, in that, a large number of people are somewhat detached from the realities of killing and eating animal flesh, and that this detachment allows some companies methods of husbandry to become dubious (to say the least) and cruelty follows. Unlike you, though, I think people need only be educated in the realities; rather than forced to do without an important foodstuff.

Split Infinity’s point, although laudable (in a way), is just not feasible certainly not for all (especially here in the UK) and hunters definitely don’t have exclusivity in the knowledge and empathy of the sacrifice made to enable humans to eat meat. Knowing a number of hunters of a like mind doesn’t show that all hold the same views ergo hunting, is no guaranty of an ethical approach.

As to your questions:

1 This has already been debated in this thread and renders the question somewhat moot.

2 Again this question is moot as the majority are unable due to regulations.

3 What animal, including humans, has a free life? Question, again moot.

 

[John Cuthber]

The implication of this "just that if your not capable of killing an animal your obviously sentient enough to not need processed meat." is that some people are , by some measure, not sentient (or, at least, not obviously sentient).

Since essentially all humans are, in fact sentient, this is an insult to those who could kill animals.

 

So, we have a post from someone who falsely accuses people of murder; says things that are plainly untrue about the effects of B12 deficiency, and claims that many people are not apparently sentient.

 

His original suggestion would kill vast numbers of people, for no better reason than that they are poor.

 

Am I missing something here?

[DevilSolution]

Common sense .....

 

I didnt say some people werent sentient, i said some people are sentient enough meaning some can be more sentient, there can be a scale right? The people who beat dogs etc etc would be less sentient IMO.

 

You can get B12 from yeast, which means beer and bread XD

Edited March 25, 2013 by DevilSolution

[John Cuthber]

This would be a lot quicker if you stopped saying things that are not true.

"Brewer's and nutritional yeasts do not contain B12 unless they are fortified"

from

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/vegansources

 

 

And

"sen·tient

/ˈsenCH(ē)ənt/
Adjective
Able to perceive or feel things: "sentient life forms""

You can't be more or less sentient any more than you can be a bit dead or mildly pregnant.

All people perceive and feel things.

If you mean "sentimental" then why not say so, rather than breaking the rules by insulting groups of people again?

[SplitInfinity]

Common sense .....

 

I didnt say some people werent sentient, i said some people are sentient enough meaning some can be more sentient, there can be a scale right? The people who beat dogs etc etc would be less sentient IMO.

 

You can get B12 from yeast, which means beer and bread XD

 

You know I pay attention to the details of animal behavior and interaction with other animals...and that includes Humans. If some people took the time and observed...they would soon realise that most mammals have very little in difference to people as far as various emotions, needs, desires and even to a point...hopes.

 

Now I am very much aware of this and because of it...when I Hunt...I do my utmost to Kill quickly and cleanly. A suffering animal is EXTREMELY distasteful to me and I would have words with any Hunter or person that was not proficient enough a Hunter to kill in a humane manner.

 

Now does my knowledge of animal behavior which shows me how connected all life is on this Planet make me feel as if what I am doing...Hunting...seem immoral? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

 

People have done themselves a disservise by disconnecting themselves from the natural world as well as believing themselves to be something they are not. Humans are the top predator...top of the food chain. We have several million years of evolution to thank for this and because we are at the top...which allowed Humans to hunt and kill any animal and eat large quantities of protein...this protein consumption is responsible for the evolutionary development of a large and complex brain.

 

If Humans had not become omniverous and had just ate plant matter we would not have the intelligence to create the technology, concepts, machinery and products that we take for granted and which makes our lives much easier and enjoyable than spending 18 hours a day foraging plants for food and the other 6 hours hoping we wouldn't become food for another animal.

 

Contrary to the belief of some...Human Beings are the ULTIMATE Killing Machines. NO other animal can out run a Human over distance. Once Humans became Bi-Pedal...to allow us to Hunt better as well as sight predators on the grassy African savannahs...by evolution we developed the most efficient energy storage and utilization capability on the Planet. A Human Being when running uses less energy to the ratio of outputted force...ie...we burn stored body fat and convert it to energy in a super efficient energy conserving way...as well as utilize this energy to perform locomotion in a ratio of higher efficiency than any other animal on Earth. Add to this the advent of tools...and you get a Top Predator that can run all day and night on zero to little caloric intake which no other animal on Earth can match. Then a Human can kill animals much larger and stronger due to our strategies, tactics and weapons.

 

All of this...our Brains...our endurance...even walking on two feet...comes from the consumption of Animal Flesh. If we had never hunted...we would probably be swinging in the trees.

 

Split Infinity

[Kinkajou]

A bit late to the party - but not only do I see taking choice away as largely immoral in general, but I think the plan dictated in this thread would lead to animal deaths any way around it.

 

Livestock would have to have their numbers drastically reduced, in order to maintain profits (and avoid issues like lots of methane), and it's a death sentence to every domesticated carnivore - Cats, Dogs, Ferrets... Dead. Cats and Ferrets especially are obligate carnivores. Taurine is a compound that is necessary and only found in meat - and we as humans can produce it ourselves - but cats can't. Lack of taurine will cause irreversible blindness, as well as cardiovascular problems. This is why many people involved in animal welfare protest the forcing of pets onto vegan diets. Because in the name of saving one animal, you kill another.

 

We are not the only consumers of livestock, after all. I feel that's something that people who claim to be animal lovers forget. Though I assume from the "freedom" talk, perhaps there is an anti-pet agenda, too? I know PeTA in particular is ultimately anti-pet and would like to see domestic species eradicated from the planet entirely.

 

I also want to point out that PLENTY of meat is raised in wide open spaces. Out where I live, where land is not at all arable for crops (other than alfalfa), cows are raised on acres and acres of rangeland, living as herds. Range-fed beef is a kind of food that is sustainable in my region, where vegetables and fish are not - there are high shipping costs, low quality, and just generally not the kind of stuff you want to eat. I'll take eating a local animal over the ecological costs of shipping oranges from hundreds of miles away.

 

I also am concerned for those in poverty. There is a REASON people in poverty eat fast food and pre-prepped food, and it's not just money. Imagine you are a single mother of two - and you just got back from working your third job of the day. The kids are hungry. You have two choices - either take the long effort of making a noodle dish or vegetable dish for your kids (and minimize what little time you can spend with them), or take them out to eat super-processed chicken nuggets, not have to deal with the effort of prep after your long day, spend more precious time with your kids, and do it for the same cost. If you are a person in poverty like that - you don't typically stop to think about how crowded the chicken house was. (We remember that battery cages aren't used for meat chickens, right? Only for eggers. Eating chickens are not raised in cages.)

 

Five pounds isn't much to a middle-class citizen for a vitamin supplement. For those in real need - Africa, Asia, South America? ...That's an entire week's salary. They already have MASSIVE problems with getting necessary protein. It's why they now have start-up rabbitry programs sometimes - rabbits have incredible protein content, little fat, are easy raise, easy to slaughter nigh-painlessly, and can provide other uses, too (Probably why I'm okay with rabbit fur if it comes from a domestic animal used for meat AND fur - about the same ethical problems as leather). And I say all this as a rabbit owner, ex-rabbit breeder, and rabbit lover. Because they could help solve world hunger.

 

I'll also note that welfare is CONSTANTLY improving in the meat industry. I suggest taking a look into who Temple Grandin is. She has, as one autistic woman, revolutionized the industry - less stress on animals, fewer problems, safer methods - animals that feel happier. New methods are used so animals feel incredibly little pain as they are slaughtered. Most fast food places actually require that slaughterhouses follow her welfare systems in order to have meat purchased from them. I think that's the way to fix the meat industry the best - give the money to those that are producing the most humane meat. And honestly, what little of that has been done has increased the welfare standards in the meat industry A LOT. It's a reward system for being good to the animals.

[EdEarl]

Okay so hypothetically speaking, if we could make it so animals become poisonous for human consumption via editing its DNA / feeding it specific molecules that make it un-edible but perfectly safe otherwise (I.E some harmful bacteria / virus for humans but totally safe for the animal).

 

For the humans with philosophical idioms such as "what you dont know wont hurt you", is it ethically sound to take choice away from humans that dont have the will power, curiosity or empathy to care for animal cruelty?

 

Based on the ethics that killing animals, caging animals, injecting artificial hormones and pure cruelty from stupid individuals etc etc is ethically bad? is forcing a solution good? is it physically possible?

 

thx.

I find curious that this thread has almost no references; thus, it is almost entirely opinion about the ethics of killing animals.

 

I would like to cite references that indicate animal products are already harmful to our health, we do not need genetic modification. Moreover, these same references indicate that eating vegan is a healthful life style. While B12 is found in animals, only bacteria and archaea have the enzymes required synthesize B12.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12

http://www.youtube.com/movie/forks-over-knives

http://www.drmcdougall.com/

 

The documentary Forks over Knives is available on Netflix. It is the work of two cardiologists, one researcher and one practitioner.

Dr. McDougall is a cardiologist practitioner.

 

Both of these practitioners have healed cardiac patients, who were proclaimed "on their death bed" by other cardiologists. Their "magic" was to put these terminally ill patients on a vegan diet.

 

The researcher explains why our biochemistry is ill suited to process animal products.

 

My doctor put me on a vegan diet, and within two months of being on the diet, I was able to stop taking blood pressure meds, which I had taken for over 20 years. And, my health has improved in other ways too.

 

Many Buddhists are vegan, and often live to be quite old. The Dali Lama was born in 1937, and is in better health than I (1944), who ate meat and animal products most of my life (and still do occasionally). Of course an example or two is not good evidence. But, the references I give do cite many more examples.

 

In addition, growing meat consumes much land the could be used for farming. Estimates I have read say growing animals takes 8 times as much land as growing vegetables to feed the same number of people.

 

If you also have ethical reasons for not killing animals, as Buddhists do, fine. The above references do not discuss that issue.

 

Due to my age, I have seen about 20 doctors in the past few years, few of them are aware of the ill effects of eating meat and meat products. However, my son-in-law is studying medicine, and at least some medical schools do have such classes. But, most nutrition education is based on FDA guidelines, which is strongly allied to agribusiness, including the meat and milk industry.

 

http://www.ecornell.com/certificate-programs/other-training/certificate-in-plant-based-nutrition-certificate/crt/TCCC01

[dimreepr]

@Kinkajou
Firstly nice post, the only thing I will pull you up on is the potential problem of eating rabbit (rabbit starvation) as a primary dietary
constituent.

[SplitInfinity]

I find curious that this thread has almost no references; thus, it is almost entirely opinion about the ethics of killing animals.

 

I would like to cite references that indicate animal products are already harmful to our health, we do not need genetic modification. Moreover, these same references indicate that eating vegan is a healthful life style. While B12 is found in animals, only bacteria and archaea have the enzymes required synthesize B12.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12

http://www.youtube.com/movie/forks-over-knives

http://www.drmcdougall.com/

 

The documentary Forks over Knives is available on Netflix. It is the work of two cardiologists, one researcher and one practitioner.

Dr. McDougall is a cardiologist practitioner.

 

Both of these practitioners have healed cardiac patients, who were proclaimed "on their death bed" by other cardiologists. Their "magic" was to put these terminally ill patients on a vegan diet.

 

The researcher explains why our biochemistry is ill suited to process animal products.

 

My doctor put me on a vegan diet, and within two months of being on the diet, I was able to stop taking blood pressure meds, which I had taken for over 20 years. And, my health has improved in other ways too.

 

Many Buddhists are vegan, and often live to be quite old. The Dali Lama was born in 1937, and is in better health than I (1944), who ate meat and animal products most of my life (and still do occasionally). Of course an example or two is not good evidence. But, the references I give do cite many more examples.

 

In addition, growing meat consumes much land the could be used for farming. Estimates I have read say growing animals takes 8 times as much land as growing vegetables to feed the same number of people.

 

If you also have ethical reasons for not killing animals, as Buddhists do, fine. The above references do not discuss that issue.

 

Due to my age, I have seen about 20 doctors in the past few years, few of them are aware of the ill effects of eating meat and meat products. However, my son-in-law is studying medicine, and at least some medical schools do have such classes. But, most nutrition education is based on FDA guidelines, which is strongly allied to agribusiness, including the meat and milk industry.

 

http://www.ecornell.com/certificate-programs/other-training/certificate-in-plant-based-nutrition-certificate/crt/TCCC01

 

Well...where do I begin here? Well...I guess talking about the obvious.

 

Human Beings are NOT designed by evolution to be strictly vegan in their nature. This is a FACT. Besides the large number of links I could provide to back this up all one has to do is look at our Canine Teeth designed for puncturing, tearing and ripping flesh as well as understand that...if a Human Being was not living in our Modern Era...where a person could buy just about...but not all...of the supplements necessary to replace the nutrients received from eating animals...that HUMAN WOULD QUICKLY DIE!

 

Does anyone really think that a person living in say...1802...would live for any long period of time if all they ate was Plant Matter?

 

Such a person would die in a matter of months. Humans are EVOLVED to eat both plants and animals. This cannot be argued.

 

Now my family owns a now large company specific to the field of medicine and the most healthy diet a Human Being can eat is one where the menu consists of straight animal proteins...lean cuts...a wide variety of fruits and vegetables...whole grain breads and if one must...whole grain pasta...nuts, berries and legumes...and Olive Oil...as apposed to other oils or butters.

 

It is also important to take a Multivitamin every day as to cover any nutrient issues arising from winter or lack of sun light as well as to be certain to have plenty of the B vitamins specific to energy utilization.

 

Now although this next bit should be checked out with a persons doctor...having two glasses of wine or two beers or even better...two shots of low sugar alcohol such as Vodka, Whisky or Bourbon...has been shown to be good for a persons heart and circulation as it tends to remove plaque from the inside of arteries.

 

All this will increase a persons life span but GENETICS tends to play a very large role in how long a person lives as well as how well a persons immune system works. The Immune system needs to get practice and the use of Antibiotic Soaps and Hand Lotions as well as the MASSIVELY HUGE MISTAKE that Mothers make when they take their children to the doctor every time the kid gets the tinniest sniffle...and asks the doctor for Antibiotics...which such parents almost NEVER have their kids take the entire regiment of pills over time...as soon as the kid starts to feel better the parents tend to stop giving them the antibiotics.

 

Doing this creates SUPERBUGS. A COLD is a VIRUS and Antibiotics DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO KILL IT...but they can help with the Bacterial Infections that arise from Cold Symptoms such as a raw nose from blowing it and tissue rub will cause an opportunity for bacterial infection. Taking the antibiotics will help cure the infection but not kill the cold virus.

 

When this happens either a kid not taking the full antibiotic regiment...as to not kill off the bacterial strain completely will allow the smallest amount of still living bacteria to evolve to being Antibiotic Resistant. As well...taking Antibiotics every time a kid has a cold...will make even the most common bacterial strains that we humans deal with daily...evolve into harmful strains.

 

Next time you argue with a person who claims that EVOLUTION is a farce...POINT THIS OUT...as it is possible to watch Bacteria EVOLVE in just a few hours with a microscope as anything that does not kill any form of life...causes such life to evolve and become STRONGER.

 

Now as far as how this connects to this topic...KIDS...those young humans who are rapidly growing in their very early years...NEED ANIMAL PROTEIN AND ANIMAL FATS. The children NEED this to properly develop...and without them things like a child's immune system and even their BONES...will not properly develop and under a Vegan Diet...such children will become sickly and underdeveloped. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO USE ANY NON-ANIMAL FOODS OR NUTRIENTS to prevent this.

 

Split Infinity

[EdEarl]

Well...where do I begin here? Well...I guess talking about the obvious.

 

Human Beings are NOT designed by evolution to be strictly vegan in their nature. This is a FACT. Besides the large number of links I could provide to back this up all one has to do is look at our Canine Teeth designed for puncturing, tearing and ripping flesh as well as understand that...if a Human Being was not living in our Modern Era...where a person could buy just about...but not all...of the supplements necessary to replace the nutrients received from eating animals...that HUMAN WOULD QUICKLY DIE!

 

Does anyone really think that a person living in say...1802...would live for any long period of time if all they ate was Plant Matter?

 

Such a person would die in a matter of months. Humans are EVOLVED to eat both plants and animals. This cannot be argued.

 

Now my family owns a now large company specific to the field of medicine and the most healthy diet a Human Being can eat is one where the menu consists of straight animal proteins...lean cuts...a wide variety of fruits and vegetables...whole grain breads and if one must...whole grain pasta...nuts, berries and legumes...and Olive Oil...as apposed to other oils or butters.

 

It is also important to take a Multivitamin every day as to cover any nutrient issues arising from winter or lack of sun light as well as to be certain to have plenty of the B vitamins specific to energy utilization.

 

Now although this next bit should be checked out with a persons doctor...having two glasses of wine or two beers or even better...two shots of low sugar alcohol such as Vodka, Whisky or Bourbon...has been shown to be good for a persons heart and circulation as it tends to remove plaque from the inside of arteries.

 

All this will increase a persons life span but GENETICS tends to play a very large role in how long a person lives as well as how well a persons immune system works. The Immune system needs to get practice and the use of Antibiotic Soaps and Hand Lotions as well as the MASSIVELY HUGE MISTAKE that Mothers make when they take their children to the doctor every time the kid gets the tinniest sniffle...and asks the doctor for Antibiotics...which such parents almost NEVER have their kids take the entire regiment of pills over time...as soon as the kid starts to feel better the parents tend to stop giving them the antibiotics.

 

Doing this creates SUPERBUGS. A COLD is a VIRUS and Antibiotics DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO KILL IT...but they can help with the Bacterial Infections that arise from Cold Symptoms such as a raw nose from blowing it and tissue rub will cause an opportunity for bacterial infection. Taking the antibiotics will help cure the infection but not kill the cold virus.

 

When this happens either a kid not taking the full antibiotic regiment...as to not kill off the bacterial strain completely will allow the smallest amount of still living bacteria to evolve to being Antibiotic Resistant. As well...taking Antibiotics every time a kid has a cold...will make even the most common bacterial strains that we humans deal with daily...evolve into harmful strains.

 

Next time you argue with a person who claims that EVOLUTION is a farce...POINT THIS OUT...as it is possible to watch Bacteria EVOLVE in just a few hours with a microscope as anything that does not kill any form of life...causes such life to evolve and become STRONGER.

 

Now as far as how this connects to this topic...KIDS...those young humans who are rapidly growing in their very early years...NEED ANIMAL PROTEIN AND ANIMAL FATS. The children NEED this to properly develop...and without them things like a child's immune system and even their BONES...will not properly develop and under a Vegan Diet...such children will become sickly and underdeveloped. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO USE ANY NON-ANIMAL FOODS OR NUTRIENTS to prevent this.

 

Split Infinity

Gendun Drup, the 1st Dalai Lama lived from 1391–1474. I doubt there is proof that he did not eat meat, but Buddhists are well know for not killing anything, even insets, and for being vegan. And, there are 13 other Dalai Lamas, some had shorter lives, but some lived very long lives. And, I believe there are millions of Buddhists living today who have not eaten meat; although, I have no proof. And, I will preemptively admit that I have read some Buddhists do eat meat.

 

The references I provide previously contradict your statements about people needing meat. Since they are MDs and an MD PhD, I will not argue their case.

 

Being an omnivore is an evolutionary advantage, especially when life spans were short anyway. It takes decades for cholesterol to block arteries and kill.

[SplitInfinity]

Gendun Drup, the 1st Dalai Lama lived from 1391–1474. I doubt there is proof that he did not eat meat, but Buddhists are well know for not killing anything, even insets, and for being vegan. And, there are 13 other Dalai Lamas, some had shorter lives, but some lived very long lives. And, I believe there are millions of Buddhists living today who have not eaten meat; although, I have no proof. And, I will preemptively admit that I have read some Buddhists do eat meat.

 

The references I provide previously contradict your statements about people needing meat. Since they are MDs and an MD PhD, I will not argue their case.

 

Being an omnivore is an evolutionary advantage, especially when life spans were short anyway. It takes decades for cholesterol to block arteries and kill.

 

To be a true Vegan means you do not eat EGGS, CHEESE or MILK....or any animal byproduct.

 

A person will not only survive but THRIVE by just drinking MILK.

 

My post is directed at TRUE VEGANS.

 

Split Infinity

[EdEarl]

A person will not only survive but THRIVE by just drinking MILK.

Yes, but countries with the highest consumption of milk also have the highest incidence of osteoporosis. Refer to the links I provided before.

[SplitInfinity]

Yes, but countries with the highest consumption of milk also have the highest incidence of osteoporosis. Refer to the links I provided before.

 

That is neither here nor there. My reply was specific to your post.

 

Split Infinity

[EdEarl]

My reply was specific to your post.

I suppose you mean I am not vegan because I eat a little meat about once a month. Very well, I am not a true vegan. I do not have ethical reasons for being vegan, only health reasons, but I am loosing my taste for meat, and find fatty meat tastes awful. Although years ago, I relished pork chops and cheeseburgers.

Edited May 24, 2013 by EdEarl

[SplitInfinity]

I suppose you mean I am not vegan because I eat a little meat about once a month. Very well, I am not a true vegan. I do not have ethical reasons for being vegan, only health reasons, but I am loosing my taste for meat, and find fatty meat tastes awful. Although years ago, I relished pork chops and cheeseburgers.

I am not pushing people to eat meat especially if they have health issues that demand a low fat diet. What I am saying is that Human Health and Development is best served by consuming Lean Meats such as Lean Cuts of Beef, Pork, Lamb...Chicken, Turkey...Rabbit ...Venison and Fish and as much vegetables a person would want to eat along with a few fruits a day and a limited amount of whole grain bread and pasta. Beans, Nuts and Berries added in now and then are also very good for the diet.

 

Those that profess to be true Vegans...that is eating a strict diet that excludes any Animal Flesh, Milk, Cheese or Eggs...and attempt to substitute certain dietary needs that come primarily from Animal flesh or products with plant based substitutes...can do so and live...but they will cause certain health issues.

 

For a CHILD to be forcibly placed on a Vegan diet IS CRIMINAL and such a diet if followed for any multiple month and in some case week time...may cause damage to a young developing body and mind that may not be recoverable from.

 

Some Vegans will fight to the end in the debate that such a diet is healthy...as far as for children...ABSOLUTELY NOT. As far as for adults...depending upon age and health issues...such a diet could be both detrimental or beneficial to a persons health...but over long periods of time...certain breakdowns in mental abilities as well as immune system issues and studies have also shown such true vegans to be to a great deal less physically strong as well as having higher risk levels specific to contracting certain diseases and immune based problems.

 

Split Infinity

[EdEarl]

I am not pushing people to eat meat especially if they have health issues that demand a low fat diet. What I am saying is that Human Health and Development is best served by consuming Lean Meats such as Lean Cuts of Beef, Pork, Lamb...Chicken, Turkey...Rabbit ...Venison and Fish and as much vegetables a person would want to eat along with a few fruits a day and a limited amount of whole grain bread and pasta. Beans, Nuts and Berries added in now and then are also very good for the diet.

 

Those that profess to be true Vegans...that is eating a strict diet that excludes any Animal Flesh, Milk, Cheese or Eggs...and attempt to substitute certain dietary needs that come primarily from Animal flesh or products with plant based substitutes...can do so and live...but they will cause certain health issues.

 

For a CHILD to be forcibly placed on a Vegan diet IS CRIMINAL and such a diet if followed for any multiple month and in some case week time...may cause damage to a young developing body and mind that may not be recoverable from.

 

Some Vegans will fight to the end in the debate that such a diet is healthy...as far as for children...ABSOLUTELY NOT. As far as for adults...depending upon age and health issues...such a diet could be both detrimental or beneficial to a persons health...but over long periods of time...certain breakdowns in mental abilities as well as immune system issues and studies have also shown such true vegans to be to a great deal less physically strong as well as having higher risk levels specific to contracting certain diseases and immune based problems.

 

Split Infinity

You are welcome to practice your beliefs. And, there are many medical professionals who agree with you. I believe the information in the references I gave is newer and more accurate than the FDA diet that most physicians and nutritionists teach. And, I believe the FDA diet will be recognized as not particularly good for people. In the mean time, you have the preponderance of medical professionals on your side.

 

I recommend you watch Forks over Knives and evaluate the evidence. I think you will find it compelling, but doubt you will change your eating habits, because a habit is very difficult to change.

[SplitInfinity]

You are welcome to practice your beliefs. And, there are many medical professionals who agree with you. I believe the information in the references I gave is newer and more accurate than the FDA diet that most physicians and nutritionists teach. And, I believe the FDA diet will be recognized as not particularly good for people. In the mean time, you have the preponderance of medical professionals on your side.

 

I recommend you watch Forks over Knives and evaluate the evidence. I think you will find it compelling, but doubt you will change your eating habits, because a habit is very difficult to change.

First of all...I am not stating beliefs...I am stating...FACTS.

 

It is a FACT that to force a child to eat a strict true Vegan Diet is CRIMINAL...and for the child's parents or anyone else to force the child to eat such a diet will not only cause the child to have major health and growth and developmental issues...for such parents or others to do so will cause Social Services to remove the child from the parents or guardians care as well as Criminal Charges will be brought up against the parents or guardians.

 

Religious beliefs is not a defense against the Court's orders for removal of custody as well as Criminal Prosecution. The case has been argued before the Supreme Court and the Parents have lost their appeal for custody.

 

Also...you are talking to a person who has along with a few others...a Degree in the field of Medicine as one of my families now large companies is specific to the medical field. I am keenly aware of the physiological, neurological, immunological, developmental and psychological problems that are created from long term and short to medium term True Vegan Dietary Practices.

 

One of the common problems that our company sees now and then is multiple compound fractures and shatter splinter brittle bone events caused in children and those over 50 but also present in Vegans at any age as my families company develops specialized braces and other equipment both for internal use in surgical repair as well as for external use either in combination with surgical repair or specific to correct improper bone growth due to a vegan diet causing poor skeletal development or due to lack of muscle strength and density and mass...over stressing of skeletal bone structure because of such lack of muscle which occurs in Vegan Children who's leg, hip, shoulder, rib, vertebrae...etc...either grow improper in density, proper proportion or structural bending...or break and shatter.

 

There is NOTHING WRONG with a person that cuts out Red Meat and instead eats Eggs, Fish, Cheese, Milk, Beans...etc...but when a person completely cuts out all animal based foods...that person is going to have issues.

 

Split Infinity

[EdEarl]

I haven't found any laws against feeding children a vegan diet. Please provide a link.

[SplitInfinity]

I haven't found any laws against feeding children a vegan diet. Please provide a link.

This is just one of many links...http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/07/04/20080704parker0704.html

 

Split Infinity

[EdEarl]

From the page you selected, "And in fact, when the children were placed in foster homes, they immediately began to gain weight - while still maintaining vegan diets."

[SplitInfinity]

From the page you selected, "And in fact, when the children were placed in foster homes, they immediately began to gain weight - while still maintaining vegan diets."

 

The Vegan Diets they maintained in Foster Homes was a Vegan Diet that allowed the children to eat Eggs, Fish, Cheese, Milk...etc.

 

Their Parents forced the kids to only eat Plant Matter and did not allow the children to eat eggs, fish, cheese or even milk.

 

OF COURSE THEY GAINED WEIGHT! And a good thing too as these kids looked like TWIGS!

 

Split Infinity

[SamBridge]

3-dimensional green-houses (http://inhabitat.com/hortus-celestia-vertical-farm-showcases-the-future-of-dutch-greenhouse-industry/), Synthetic protein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat), vitamins of course, you can essentially eat parts of rocks if the elements are arranged the right way and toxic elements are removed, there's tons (relativistically literally) of light energy that the sun shines upon the Earth not to mention geothermal energy, the problem with these types of solutions is that they are not (at least not yet) energy efficient and thus not economically efficient at all, like old solar panels, but the energy and resources to re-arrange molecules into digestible food is all around us, kind of reminds me of Tesla.

Regarding the first post of the OP, "what you don't know can't hurt you" is not a statement about physical objects, but is related to knowledge and the notion that "bliss=happiness", and thus is should not be taken literally to apply to the physical world. Obviously if you don't know you have cancer you will die from it, but if you don't know someone is dead you may not be as sad that they are gone, which makes the basis to take choices away from people using that notion seem rather silly. Even with that said, there isn't exactly a scientific way to determined that someone has "no willpower" or "no empathy", I suppose someone can have various levels of psychopathic behavior, but often mentally retarded people can learn things such as empathy and various emotions cognitively and through trying to imagine if it doesn't come to them naturally. For willpower though, I don't really know how to quantify that anyway, so I don't see how you could decide for sure if you should take a freedom from someone in the first place. Rationally speaking, if someone has 99.99% the same brain as you, and a=a, which is to say anything equals itself, and a brain is what generates perception and consciousness then in any person (or I suppose other animals), perception is perception, consciousness is consciousness, willpower is willpower, ect, if you have what you call willpower, then your willpower should not be different than the pattern that creates will power of anyone else, and since they have a brain, and are 99.99% physically identical to you, any living thing that can be called a "human" more than likely has the same thing of what you call your own willpower.

Edited May 25, 2013 by SamBridge

[SplitInfinity]

You TELL EM SAM! LOL!

 

All I know is if anyone ever attempts to pull away my plate that has a nice rare Venison Steak with a side of sauteed Wild Mushrooms with Onions....they are going to loose a Finger! LOL!

 

And for all or any who are reading this and thinking...OH! POOR BAMBI!

 

I would never shoot Bambi...it is Bambi's Mom or Dad I am looking to shoot and eat.

 

Split Infinity

[John Cuthber]

The Vegan Diets they maintained in Foster Homes was a Vegan Diet that allowed the children to eat Eggs, Fish, Cheese, Milk...etc.

That's not a vegan diet is it?

"I would never shoot Bambi...it is Bambi's Mom or Dad I am looking to shoot and eat."

the

practical outcome of which is that, deprived of his mother's milk, Bambi would starve to death.

How nice of you.

 

"A person will not only survive but THRIVE by just drinking MILK."

No they would not.

There's no fibre for a start and the balance of fats , proteins and carbohydrates is wrong for anything other than a a baby.

[SplitInfinity]

That's not a vegan diet is it?

"I would never shoot Bambi...it is Bambi's Mom or Dad I am looking to shoot and eat."

the

practical outcome of which is that, deprived of his mother's milk, Bambi would starve to death.

How nice of you.

 

"A person will not only survive but THRIVE by just drinking MILK."

No they would not.

There's no fibre for a start and the balance of fats , proteins and carbohydrates is wrong for anything other than a a baby.

 

As far as Deer Meat or Venison is concerned it is quite possibly one of the most healthy protein rich meats one could eat as well as being extremely low in fat.

 

And as far as Bambi living or dying...if you think your Chicken Nugget arrived on your plate in a less painful fashion then by all means tell us about it.

 

Although I would not want to only drink Milk as a food source...given the choice between eating just Vegetable Matter or Milk over a period of time...I would choose the Milk...that is if I had no concern about braking Bones that had become too brittle or loosing a great deal of muscle mass.

 

Split Infinity