Harnessing Photosynthesis for Power/Food Production

[Cutler.Phillippe]

Hello, I'm a freshman in high-school, and I'm attempting to see if it is possible to harness the abilities of leaves in photosynthesis to create a new power/food source that is more efficient than typical solar panels. I desire to take leaves and either mutate them so that they will grow in all directions to cover a thin sheet (on which they will be given water similar to that used in hydroponics and put out into the sun) or create plant stem cells (if that's even possible) and grow them onto the sheet as leaf cells.

 

I would like to know what the most efficient plant is that you can think of (when it comes to the ability to produce the most glucose in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of light). I also would like to know if it's possible to make plant stem cells.

 

Thank you for your time.

(note: In this topic i have not given away all of the information on what I will actually do with the leaves once they are on the sheet and watered/"fed".)

Edited March 30, 2013 by TheCuts

[Ringer]

Basically that's what plant's already do. They use photosynthesis and create fruits and vegetables. The efficiency of solar panels is ~17% I think and I believe photosynthesis is 25%. I would probably use either moss or algae to try this since they would be much easier to contain and wouldn't waste as much space growing up.

[Cutler.Phillippe]

Thank you. I will try to use moss in my experiment.

[vampares]

Moss is about the least productive plant I could possibly think of. No offense.

 

1... that is more efficient than typical solar panels.

 

2... mutate them

 

3... so that they will grow in all directions

 

4... to cover a thin sheet (on which they will be given water similar to that used in hydroponics and put out into the sun) or create plant stem cells (if that's even possible) and grow them onto the sheet as leaf cells.

5... when it comes to the ability to produce the most glucose in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of light).

 

6... I also would like to know if it's possible to make plant stem cells.

 

1... Solar panels are like what sort of efficiency? Help me out.

 

 

2... Jesus. When did freshmen get to be so classy? The product is called "80-in-one". It contains plant hormones which will stimulate the erratic and spurious growth you talk about.

 

 

3... You should realize that flat and all directions expansive is hexagon. But you have to be careful here because that also would require the cells to respect one another.

What I'm getting is you want to spread them like cream cheese and get a result that doesn't require space. Or tubes for that matter. you know that you can get more light and avoid refraction better with a tube. Or something optical.

 

 

4... Why a thin sheet? Isn't that the definition of a leaf?

 

 

5... "Plants" perform a metabolic process that derives energy from light with chloroform. It creates an electric potential which is used to reduce H+ producing NADH.

 

"Glucose" is blood sugar. Is this for diabetics? (I again would like to know if green peas will assimilate DL-methionine.) Plants don't make that at least not at first. There are two types of carbon fixation: C4 and C3.

C4 produces malic acid.

C3 produces 3-phosphoglycerate by cracking ribulose bisphosphate.

 

You should review these photosynthetic pathways.

 

 

What I am thinking however is that you want electricity rather than carbon fixation. I think kelp is a flat piece of saline tolerant material. You can buy it at the grocery stores, it is Japanese cuisine so Asian shop probably carry it. It is not "seaweed", it is like a sheet of cardboard. It is dried so don't expect it to be like much more than a zombie but it might do something especially if it is fresh. CAUTION it swells. Do not eat it raw.

 

So you have a kelp in a closed saline (like salty ocean water, try adding potassium) environment. There is a lead between the sealed kelp and load (you might just use a multi-meter). The other lead of the load goes to "ground". You will need a ground wire.

 

I don't know if that works but it might. See, the problem is getting the back side of the kelp to release the electrons in a potentiated fashion? And how do we get electrons back into the system? Batteries have two sides. I've made methamphetamines with a sheep skin condom before and I think kelp has the ionic barrier you would need to make a battery.

 

I hope that helps.

 

6... Those are called branches, sticks, "the carrot top", etc. See #2.

Edited April 12, 2013 by vampares

[CharonY]

For simplicity in terms of cultivation I would probably go for cyanobacteria. Some have engineered growth vessels which maximize surface so that the little buggers can get sunlight very efficiently. Nonetheless, the yield for use as biofuels is still very low, even with them.

 

The efficiency of solar panels is ~17% I think and I believe photosynthesis is 25%.

 

It may depend very strongly on how efficiency is measure, but the conversion efficiency of sunlight to biomass via photosynthesis is closer to 2 (and lower) %, from what I have seen.

[Moontanman]

If you want to go with the best plant to grow and make bio mass fast I would try Azolla,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azolla

 

Azolla filiculoides (Red Azolla) is the only member of this genus and of the family Azollaceae in Tasmania. It is a very common native aquatic plant in Tasmania. It is particularly common on farm dams and other still water bodies. The plants are small (usually only a few cm across) and float, but can be very abundant and form large mats. The plants are typically red, and have very small water repellent leaves. Azolla floats on the surface of water by means of numerous, small, closely overlapping scale-like leaves, with their roots hanging in the water. They form a symbiotic relationship with the cyanobacterium Anabaena azollae, which fixes atmospheric nitrogen, giving the plant access to the essential nutrient. This has led to the plant being dubbed a "super-plant", as it can readily colonise areas of freshwater, and grow at great speed - doubling its biomass every two to three days. The only known limiting factor on its growth is phosphorus, another essential mineral. An abundance of phosphorus, due for example to eutrophication or chemical runoff, often leads to Azolla blooms.

 

 

 

Food

In addition to its traditional cultivation as a bio-fertilizer for wetland paddy (due to its ability to fix nitrogen), azolla is finding increasing use for sustainable production of livestock feed.^[15] Azolla is rich in proteins, essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals. Studies describe feeding azolla to dairy cattle, pigs, ducks, and chickens, with reported increases in milk production, weight of broiler chickens and egg production of layers, as compared to conventional feed. One FAO study describes how azolla integrates into a tropical biomass agricultural system, reducing the need for inputs.^[16] Azolla has also been suggested as a food stuff for human consumption. However, no long term studies of the healthiness of eating Azolla have been made on humans.^[17]

[CharonY]

Well, typical cyanobacteria have doubling times of a few hours...

[Moontanman]

Azolla is like a watery lichen in some ways, a fern that is symbiotic with a cyanobacteria instead of a fungus, it's only limiting nutrient is phosphorus... I grow it in vats as a way to remove phosphates from water and as a medium to grow plants in. Water it grows in becomes clear and sweet.

Here are some of my azolla vats getting started, they started out two weeks ago with a handful of azolla by the end of the summer i will have barrels of it just from my little operation.

 

 

[vampares]

TheCuts (OP) must be hard at work on something.

 

@Moontanman: you eat that? You have some large containers. I've got a creek with some ponds in my yard that is producing Spirulina and some rooted aquatic plants. I don't think I have any Azolla yet. I'll try to remember to photograph some of it tomorrow.

 

What sort of critters do you get with that stuff? My ponds are predominately producing frogs and dragonflies. Herron's eat the frogs and last year been several herron's hatched.

 

I had some Golden Eagles but they left for some reason. Probably because of the vultures. They were attracted -- IMO -- to red algae derived DHA (WalMart brand).

 

Red alga might be a good freshwater aquatic species for the nutrients.

 

 

I kind of thought he wanted to make a solar panel out of plants. Maybe not. Saran wrap, kelp and an extension cord is about the cheapest you could get. Gel capsule gelatin would probably extend the lifespan of the panel and help contain the high currents that will flow through the system.

 

OK maybe it won't work. But that would prove something in itself, right?

Edited April 21, 2013 by vampares

[Moontanman]

TheCuts (OP) must be hard at work on something.

 

@Moontanman: you eat that? You have some large containers. I've got a creek with some ponds in my yard that is producing Spirulina and some rooted aquatic plants. I don't think I have any Azolla yet. I'll try to remember to photograph some of it tomorrow.

 

No i don't eat it but most everything else does, koi seem to love it like candy.

 

What sort of critters do you get with that stuff? My ponds are predominately producing frogs and dragonflies. Herron's eat the frogs and last year been several herron's hatched.

 

In azolla containers I grow fish, mostly Enneacanthus chaetodon, the Black Banded sunfish.

 

 

I had some Golden Eagles but they left for some reason. Probably because of the vultures. They were attracted -- IMO -- to red algae derived DHA (WalMart brand).

 

Red alga might be a good freshwater aquatic species for the nutrients.

 

 

I kind of thought he wanted to make a solar panel out of plants. Maybe not. Saran wrap, kelp and an extension cord is about the cheapest you could get. Gel capsule gelatin would probably extend the lifespan of the panel and help contain the high currents that will flow through the system.

 

In the vats where i want to grow other organisms I discourage the growth of azolla in favor of unicellular algae and bacteria that feed the Daphnia magna which is my target species for fish food production.

[vampares]

There is a frog in the grass. He might live in that hole. I don't know. The rock snot that resembles hair in the water is Spriulina.

 

 

 

This is a frog and a snake with spirulina. The snake is hidding under a stick and some spirulina.

 

 

This is leaf detritus.

 

This is a bird. Behind him is a horse pasture.

 

 

This is spirulina and the green slimey stuff on top is chlorella.

 

This is a rock near the stream.

This is horse.

 

 

 

This rock snot sits in the shade. If it is not spirulina it may be irish moss of some sort but from what I understand irish moss grows in the ocean.

 

Snack apple leaves.

This is eutrophic scum left from dumping things in my stream.

I don't know what the bubbles are in this photo.

http://imageshack.us/a/img41/5218/dsc00358vc.jpg

 

Different aquatic plants.

http://imageshack.us/a/img833/8435/dsc00356km.jpg

 

Rockway. Notice the moss I grew. hahaha. Real dominate stuff.

http://imageshack.us/a/img853/9104/dsc00361kt.jpg

 

Frog again but tadpoles are visible.

http://imageshack.us/a/img845/9673/dsc00365r.jpg

Edited April 21, 2013 by vampares

[Moontanman]

Interesting pictures, are these things you intentionally culture?

[vampares]

The spirulina, the chlorella, irish moss and the moss are all intentional cultures. The other aquatic plants may have incidentally been introduced, or, may have grown due to fertilization. The stream was relatively clear of anything but flesh eating bacteria originally.

 

I was thinking of adding fish but I wouldn't know which ones and I'm afraid they would eat the tadpoles which would starve the herron's. The main waterway has trout.

 

I initiated another small water system about 12 miles away. It was rather sulfurous. May have been septic. There are fish in the lower larger pond. Stripped bass and brim. Large turtles. Geese. The upper pond has lilly pads and frogs.

 

That watershed system developed a few different aquatic organisms. Perhaps those are more like the Irish moss I was referring to. They may have been native. Trouble is the pond sat so long the whole thing exploded. Sort of hard to see the fish now. It was sort of shallow so I'm sure they don't mind. Last time I was there the swamp gas was not completely digested but there was progress. The water shed is approximately 10% disturbed earth and a large fraction of impermeable asphalt. Septic could be 300-400 person daytime usage. It was an old farm with several arborist trees, other wise deciduous with a detritus pond.

Edited April 22, 2013 by vampares

[Moontanman]

Are these natural streams that you have cleaned out or artificial streams? I'm not sure what you mean when you say septic, do you mean an above ground septic waste system? If this is a natural stream connected with other natural streams then adding fish is something that you should contact your state department of fisheries about. In any case if the stream is connected with natural streams fish will migrate naturally up stream to fill the vacant niches if the waste water has been diverted from flowing through it...

[vampares]

Septic as in they receive runoff or run-under from conventional septic systems. This is a discharge into a "sand mound" on top of semi-permiable earth. Gutter runoff may or may not be released on the down-stream-side of the discharge. Not sophisticated at all.

 

Are these natural streams that you have cleaned out or artificial streams?

 

These are going to be natural waterways which have been converted to storm drain systems. All of these systems are continuous flow. If a runoff is not continuous flow, it will be be impermeable construction.

 

I am at an elevation below 300 feet in Pennsylvania (note the Great Lakes shorelines are 1000 feet and have a depth of about 1000 feet). Up stream *of the photos* is quarried rock of about 21 years. It is occupied by geese who charge the system.

Downstream services public sewers.

Edited April 22, 2013 by vampares

[Cutler.Phillippe]

It appears that the responses to my topic have gotten way off track of what i desired to know. I simply want to take and harvest the glucose and NADPH that is produced by the plants and then do a process similar to or the same as cellular respiration. Then take the ATP and break it into ADP and harvest the chemical energy to create electricity.

[vampares]

Is this a Rube Goldberg swiss army knife?

 

• glucose and NADPH

If you harvest one, well, isn't this sort of a stop action production scheme? Not feature creep exactly but say "overlaps". Why just not buy a donkey, feed him grass and have him walk on a giant wheel? Are you a PETA member?

 

• Then take the ATP and break it into ADP

That particular energy? Perhaps I should read into the word break.

 

How much electricity creation are we talking about? How will this electricity be qualified? Are you looking to light up a light bulb or just produce blips on an EKG? How will you prevent the subject biological material from eating your electricity out of the storage unit?

 

I don't mean to be course, but biology and, say, Benjamin Franklin electronics are not in anyway allowing you to join these things with clear and certain ease.

 

I'd go back to the donkey on this. A donkey can make a light bulb light up, you name it under 100 watts.

 

By the way, what plant that you know of produces glucose? If you want a plant to hook into the grid use grass.

 

So far your idea sucks. I'm not saying you suck. But the idea is piss poor.

 

ATP to ADP is an energy transfer. It does not release electrons with potential energy. Duracell and donkeys release electrons with potential energy. Regardless of what this is for, you have a system which does not pass the Stewart test. Do you want to die? If not think along the lines of subjecting kelp in saran wrap to a CO2 free environment. Orient that towards the sun. If it does not work, well, have you tried it? Because ATP is a bitch. Biological material is going to suck that up first thing. Forget electricity, whatever that is.

 

Maybe DL-methionine could be a source of energy? Have you plugged a hunk of dog shit up with the potato battery kit yet?

Edited April 29, 2013 by vampares

[Cutler.Phillippe]

that's all i needed to know. I guess it's impossible to transfer the chemical energy into electrical energy.

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

Could we ensure that the thread sticks to the topic of the Original Post please? And possibly make comments a little less caustic. Many thanks.

[vampares]

!

Moderator Note

Could we ensure that the thread sticks to the topic of the Original Post please? And possibly make comments a little less caustic. Many thanks.

 

There is an animal called the electric eel. I this animal discharges electricity. So it is not impossible. But the eel does not produce the electricity by photosynthesis. I don't know how that works exactly.

that's all i needed to know. I guess it's impossible to transfer the chemical energy into electrical energy.

 

Using the energy inside of "glucose" or alcohol inside of something like a hydrogen fuel cell may be possible but this is no longer a biological discussion at that point. You want to use ATP. Well the storage and release of electrical potential is not common in biology. Photosynthesis creates an electrical potential but that potential energy is used to make ATP, etc. particularly by the process I described earlier. Preventing that production of ATP usage could produce voltage potential. That is one side of the plant to the other one.

 

Maybe you should talk to an electrician. Electrical circuits are closed loop. I am very serious. Once you have consumed all the ATP there is no more. The methods of gaining ATP are not available to you at that time.

[krash661]

what's the differences from this idea, and how solar energy works ?

[vampares]

Maybe I should post a video of a donkey running on a wheel as fast as he can.

[krash661]

Maybe I should post a video of a donkey running on a wheel as fast as he can.

ohh, i apologize, if this a response to my comment,

 

I was referring to the topic it's self,

 

" Harnessing Photosynthesis for Power/Food Production "

[vampares]

what's the differences from this idea, and how solar energy works ?

 

Electron potential in a solar cell is captured by means of a one way bridge, like a semi-conductor. Electrons can travel one way but not the other way.

 

The hypothesis is based upon the same concept but in this instance the one way bridge is biological membranes.

 

 

 

ohh, i apologize, if this a response to my comment,

 

I was referring to the topic it's self,

 

" Harnessing Photosynthesis for Power/Food Production "

 

Like farming. I posted a picture of a snack apple tree. They were OK last year. Not quite food. They won't be at the farmers market next year. Deer love em.

 

If you want to go the route of ethanol production it a is very good idea IMO. So long as the process does not mutated microorganisms. I think this is much better than using wind energy. Wind energy is poised to "create jobs" but on the grid it is sort of a nuisance because there is no control of the things and they aren't reliable down to the here and now on demand production of power. Solar energy is expensive, it doesn't operate at night and while power is produced. The draw back is that they are expensive. They use light sources that photosynthesis does not. So dry dessert areas are probably the only location they won't get dirty or receive to little solar radiation.

 

So back to the ethanol production. One part of this is that in essence the technology is tripped up by the moonshine bootleg alcohol still thing. It is a deterrent when it is illegal to produce distilled alcohol with out a license.

 

These old still were not designed to produce efficiently. I have looked into adapting the process to something that was more autonomous and did not waste too much energy. Something like using underground condensation and ambient or solar temperatures (as opposed to a propane burner and a bucket of ice).

[krash661]

The hypothesis is based upon the same concept but in this instance the one way bridge is biological membranes.

yes i know ,that was my point. Edited April 30, 2013 by krash661