New form of Schrodinger equation

[sidharath]

suppose an electron is moving towards proton to form hydrogen atom and when it reaches certain distance from proton V electrostatic potential energy is liberated One part of potential energy is radiated carrying energy E while the remaining part is retained as kinetic energy therefore applying conservation energy law V=E+kinetic energy E here is the radiated energy using the above relation in combination with de brogllie wave equation and wave equation for stationary waves Schrodinger equation can be derived but with difference that last term involving( E-V) is negative if this equation is solved value of E is positive

[Griffon]

Are the several versions of this thread starter visible evidence of quantum superposition?

Edited April 6, 2013 by Griffon

[timo]

Call me a grammar Nazi. But I believe that we should have forum rules that require posts, especially opening posts, to at least have any punctuation.

[swansont]

V = E + K is not a correct equation. E = K + V

[sidharath]

please excuse me for my poor english, still it coneys but i mean to say. As for the relation V= E +kinetic energy , please . explain where i have gone wrong .The relation is based on energetics. E is not the energy of hydrogen atom as i have explained, it is the total energy radiated out by the electron as it moves towards proton to form hydrogen atom The source of radiation emitted by hydrogen atom is V, the electrostatic potential energy liberated as electron moves towards proton. i shall be thankful if you point out the error . In relation E=V+kinetic energy E is taken as energy of hydrogen after its formation by the combination electron and proton Again i request you to study the relation proposed by me after taking into account the significance E and V The significance E is different from than in the traditional relation

[swansont]

please excuse me for my poor english, still it coneys but i mean to say. As for the relation V= E +kinetic energy , please . explain where i have gone wrong .The relation is based on energetics. E is not the energy of hydrogen atom as i have explained, it is the total energy radiated out by the electron as it moves towards proton to form hydrogen atom The source of radiation emitted by hydrogen atom is V, the electrostatic potential energy liberated as electron moves towards proton. i shall be thankful if you point out the error . In relation E=V+kinetic energy E is taken as energy of hydrogen after its formation by the combination electron and proton Again i request you to study the relation proposed by me after taking into account the significance E and V The significance E is different from than in the traditional relation

 

You should use a different variable if it has a different meaning, but it really doesn't.

 

Total energy is E = K + V

 

The energy radiated is the difference in energy as you change configurations, i.e. [math]E_{radiate} = E_i - E_f[/math]

 

But the system starts with no energy. The radiated energy is simply [math]E_{radiate} = - E_f[/math]

 

IOW, the radiated energy is -(K + V)

[sidharath]

Even if E(hydrogen atom)=V+K kinetic energy K is associated with motion but according to quantum mechanics orbital motion to the electron is denied in hydrogen atom, therefore, use of term kinetic energy is meaningless .There is no logic in putting E=V+K for . hydrogen atom. if quantum mechanics concept is considered The basic equation on which one of the SIMPLEST derivation of Schrodinger equation is based is contrary to concept of quantum mechanic I request to enlighten me , and point out where i have gone wrong

E(radiated)=E(final)-E(initial) please can you explain what is the source of radiated energy

[swansont]

Even if E(hydrogen atom)=V+K kinetic energy K is associated with motion but according to quantum mechanics orbital motion to the electron is denied in hydrogen atom, therefore, use of term kinetic energy is meaningless .

 

No, it's not meaningless. The electron does, in fact, have kinetic energy.

 

There is no logic in putting E=V+K for . hydrogen atom.

 

I argue that a statement of total energy, and application of conservation of energy, is perfectly logical.

 

if quantum mechanics concept is considered The basic equation on which one of the SIMPLEST derivation of Schrodinger equation is based is contrary to concept of quantum mechanic I request to enlighten me , and point out where i have gone wrong

E(radiated)=E(final)-E(initial) please can you explain what is the source of radiated energy

 

E(radiated)=E(initial)-E(final)

 

Your equation does not conserve energy.

[sidharath]

i wish to convey that when hydrogen atom emits electromagnetic energy ,what is the source of that energy because usually energy is radiated when there is change in rotational. vibrational energy etc

The kinetic is meaningful only when electron moves in specified path but according to quantum mechanics the position of electron is governed by probability in hydrogen atom ,it may every where

[swansont]

i wish to convey that when hydrogen atom emits electromagnetic energy ,what is the source of that energy because usually energy is radiated when there is change in rotational. vibrational energy etc

 

The change in total energy of the system, i.e. E = K + V is different, and one or more of the quantum numbers has changed (n, l,m). There is no rotational or vibrational energy for a single H atom.

 

The kinetic is meaningful only when electron moves in specified path but according to quantum mechanics the position of electron is governed by probability in hydrogen atom ,it may every where

 

You don't get to arbitrarily decide that kinetic energy is no longer meaningful.

[sidharath]

when traditional Schrodinger equation is solved energy of hydrogen atom comes to be negative and hence hydrogen atom is expected to be stable but actually it is not so because hydrogen atom spontaneously combines with another atom to form, hydrogen atom. i leave intricacy of bond formation ,my explanation is based on energetics .In reality energy of hydrogen atom increases after formation by the combination of electron and proton because half of liberated electrostatic potential energy is added up to atom as kinetic energy and this energy is the source of energy of bond formation i request you to let me know if i am wrong

As for kinetic energy it is meaningless without trajectory which is denied by quantum mechanics

[swansont]

when traditional Schrodinger equation is solved energy of hydrogen atom comes to be negative and hence hydrogen atom is expected to be stable but actually it is not so because hydrogen atom spontaneously combines with another atom to form, hydrogen atom.

 

I submit that you are not using "spontaneous" properly when you require an external particle or system to be present. The Schrödinger equation for a single Hydrogen atom is solved for a single Hydrogen atom. If you change the boundary conditions, of course the answer will change. That should be obvious. That's user error, not a fault in the equation.

 

i leave intricacy of bond formation ,my explanation is based on energetics .In reality energy of hydrogen atom increases after formation by the combination of electron and proton because half of liberated electrostatic potential energy is added up to atom as kinetic energy and this energy is the source of energy of bond formation i request you to let me know if i am wrong

 

Which violates conservation of energy. Now you need to explain why energy is not conserved in your formulation of QM.

 

As for kinetic energy it is meaningless without trajectory which is denied by quantum mechanics

 

Still wrong. QM gets the energy levels of H correct (along with many other things), so the model works. Nature, it seems, thinks KE still has meaning.

[beefpatty]

 

As for kinetic energy it is meaningless without trajectory which is denied by quantum mechanics

 

Not quite. In QM, observables are promoted to operators. Since momentum is an observable, in QM it becomes the operator, [math]\hat{p}[/math] so inserting it into the expression for kinetic energy we easily find that

 

[math]\hat{T} = \frac{\hat{p}^2}{2m} = -\frac{\hbar^2}{2m}\bigtriangledown^2[/math]

 

which you could then operate on a state to get an eigenvalue corresponding to the kinetic energy. You can also find the expectation value rather than a single eigenvalue by taking

 

[math]\langle\psi|\hat{T}|\psi\rangle[/math]

 

where [math]\psi[/math] is some wavefunction that describes your system.

[sidharath]

I request you to clear my doubt why energy of hydrogen atom after its formation by the combination of electron and proton is not negative as predicated when traditional Schrodinger equation is solved because when electron moves towards proton after radiating half of the electrostatic potential energy the other half of the electrostatic potential energy is pumped into hydrogen atom in the form of kinetic energy of electron which leads to positive or more value of energy after formation of hydrogen atom Even Wheeler was uncomfortable with negative value When equation proposed by me is solved the energy value is positive but that energy is the total energy radiated when electron combines with proton to form ground state of hydrogen atom Please let me know if the proposed new form of Schrodinger is correct i don't challenge the traditional equation because somehow it works by using lot of math equation i have a way of solving all the energy problems of quantum mechanics without using Schrodingr equation The equation is useful but it is not the fundamental equation I have devised alternative mattenegon quantum mechanism in my book where i have discussed hydrogen atom completely along with quantum numbers without using Schrodinger equation