If God is love then why is there so much suffering in the world?

[seriously disabled]

Actually in the old testament God actually claims responsibility for both good and evil. I can't remember exactly where but it is there.

 

Old testament is too outdated because evidence shows that this is just not the case. Pain and agony clearly prevail over goodness in the world because there are just too many people in pain and in terrible suffering.

 

In my opinion Satan is so corrupt that he wants to see us scream in terrible pain and drown in blood and then he wants us to die.

Edited May 15, 2013 by seriously disabled

[photon propeller]

So you are a deist. You think God does nothing now. He did the big bang and left it alone after that. If that is the case, is this 'Master' really important?Nature causes some of the worst death and destruction. No choice there. Best thing we can do is try to understand reality and prepare or avoid if possible. Master is not in the house, offers no help.That equilibrium appears to be nothing. The Universe is speeding towards nothingness.

I wont profess to know how much God interferes now but I will say that the more interference the less revealing to God the final outcome of our choices will be. Nature can be a beast, but we are all constituents of it. As far as the Universe, true at this time its expansion is accelerating, however, the energy density of our universe is constant, no matter what size it is it will never be "nothing." Energy can not be created or destroyed, only transformed, the energy of God is infinite.

[Moontanman]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

 

Epicurean paradox

I wont profess to know how much God interferes now but I will say that the more interference the less revealing to God the final outcome of our choices will be. Nature can be a beast, but we are all constituents of it. As far as the Universe, true at this time its expansion is accelerating, however, the energy density of our universe is constant, no matter what size it is it will never be "nothing." Energy can not be created or destroyed, only transformed, the energy of God is infinite.

 

 

Again you make assertions that need to be backed up by evidence as though everyone agrees with you, please tell us how you know these things or back them up with evidence...

Old testament is too outdated because evidence shows that this is just not the case. Pain and agony clearly prevail over goodness in the world because there are just too many people in pain and in terrible suffering.

 

I'm not sure how this disagrees with what I said...

 

In my opinion Satan is so corrupt that he wants to see us scream in terrible pain and drown in blood and then he wants us to die.

 

The biblical concept of Satan is exactly that.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Moontanman

[photon propeller]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

 

Epicurean paradox

 

 

 

Again you make assertions that need to be backed up by evidence as though everyone agrees with you, please tell us how you know these things or back them up with evidence...

 

 

I'm not sure how this disagrees with what I said...

 

 

The biblical concept of Satan is exactly that.

Energy density has been calculated by WMAP's observations of the cosmic background radiation. Mean energy density is equal to critical density with a margin of error of .5%. This equals 5.9 protons per cubic centimeter. It is constant and is a fact. I told you nature was my evidence but you have yet to grasp the concept. The laws of physics are irrefutable and yet incomplete. The importance of God is that God is not only the lawmaker but attains the complete set of rules. Enlightenment is gained as these rules are understood.

[Moontanman]

Energy density has been calculated by WMAP's observations of the cosmic background radiation. Mean energy density is equal to critical density with a margin of error of .5%. This equals 5.9 protons per cubic centimeter. It is constant and is a fact.

Please show me the facts, your word that this is the facts is not evidence of anything.

I told you nature was my evidence but you have yet to grasp the concept. The laws of physics are irrefutable and yet incomplete. The importance of God is that God is not only the lawmaker but attains the complete set of rules. Enlightenment is gained as these rules are understood.

And I have told you that nature is not evidence of anything but nature the rest of your statement is simply what you claim to be true with no evidence what so ever...

 

Oh and by the way... Which God? Odin? Zeus? Adriana?

Edited May 15, 2013 by Moontanman

[photon propeller]

 

Please show me the facts, your word that this is the facts is not evidence of anything.

 

And I have told you that nature is not evidence of anything but nature the rest of your statement is simply what you claim to be true with no evidence what so ever...

 

Oh and by the way... Which God? Odin? Zeus? Adriana?

I have told you that the very essence of nature is governed by predetermined laws. Is it such a stretch to envision a lawmaker? What one names something does not change its nature. A name is merely a label. God is the best we have come up with.

[Moontanman]

I have told you that the very essence of nature is governed by predetermined laws. Is it such a stretch to envision a lawmaker? What one names something does not change its nature. A name is merely a label. God is the best we have come up with.

 

 

I can envision a brobdingnagian creature that ingests dark matter and excretes universes just as easily as i can imagine an all powerful being, in fact the all powerful being is more difficult to imagine since it raises some questions of contradictions but my creature that simply excretes universes has no contradictions...

[seriously disabled]

People believe what suits them but this doesn't prove anything.

 

People have (and probably always had) a panic fear of death (which could probably be final) and they also need a way to cope with the very cruel things which happen to people and animals (animals probably suffer more than humans because we kill many of them and we sell their bodies for food) in this world so they invent God/s to make themselves feel better but this of course does not prove the existence of God.

Edited May 15, 2013 by seriously disabled

[dumbbloke]

Actually, it's not God's fault at all. it's the fault of the perpetrators of the evil. We live in a time of suspended judgement, this would is perfectly imperfect so that the next world can be perfect and correct all the problems, resolve all the injustices and reward all the good and evil properly. If it weren't so, this world would be unable to be a fair test of us to see if we would do all things whatsoever He should command us. If the test isn't fair, then we would never qualify to recieve the rewards promised. It would be impossible. Unpleasant, unfair, terrible--yes, and absolutely necessary for our salvation. It HAS to be this way.

[krash661]

Actually, it's not God's fault at all. it's the fault of the perpetrators of the evil. We live in a time of suspended judgement, this would is perfectly imperfect so that the next world can be perfect and correct all the problems, resolve all the injustices and reward all the good and evil properly. If it weren't so, this world would be unable to be a fair test of us to see if we would do all things whatsoever He should command us. If the test isn't fair, then we would never qualify to recieve the rewards promised. It would be impossible. Unpleasant, unfair, terrible--yes, and absolutely necessary for our salvation. It HAS to be this way.

tell me the difference between a god that exists but does not manifest in this reality and a god that does not exist.

[Moontanman]

Actually, it's not God's fault at all. it's the fault of the perpetrators of the evil. We live in a time of suspended judgement, this would is perfectly imperfect so that the next world can be perfect and correct all the problems, resolve all the injustices and reward all the good and evil properly. If it weren't so, this world would be unable to be a fair test of us to see if we would do all things whatsoever He should command us. If the test isn't fair, then we would never qualify to recieve the rewards promised. It would be impossible. Unpleasant, unfair, terrible--yes, and absolutely necessary for our salvation. It HAS to be this way.

 

 

So the sexual brutalization of children just has to happen?

[photon propeller]

I will offer this quote on topic "Whatever there is of God and goodness in the universe, it must work itself out and express itself through us. We cannot stand aside and let God do it" Albert Einstein

[Moontanman]

I will offer this quote on topic "Whatever there is of God and goodness in the universe, it must work itself out and express itself through us. We cannot stand aside and let God do it" Albert Einstein

 

An appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, Einstein was not a an expert on theology his remarks on God are no better or worse than anyone elses. How about you answer my question about the sexual brutalization of children instead of appealing to authority.

[photon propeller]

An appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, Einstein was not a an expert on theology his remarks on God are no better or worse than anyone elses. How about you answer my question about the sexual brutalization of children instead of appealing to authority.

My appeal is for you to recognize that some very intelligent people are not satisfied with the default position, and that scientific experts like Einstein also recognized that the complex essence of nature implies a deity. As far as the sexual brutalization comment you and dumbloke can have your own conversation

Edited May 17, 2013 by photon propeller

[Moontanman]

My appeal is for you to recognize that some very intelligent people are not satisfied with the default position, and that scientific experts like Einstein also recognized that the complex essence of nature implies a deity. As far as the sexual brutalization comment you and dumbloke can have your own conversation

Again, an appeal to authority is not evidence of anything but that person belief which is no better or worse than anyone elses...

[jp255]

Actually, it's not God's fault at all. it's the fault of the perpetrators of the evil. We live in a time of suspended judgement, this would is perfectly imperfect so that the next world can be perfect and correct all the problems, resolve all the injustices and reward all the good and evil properly. If it weren't so, this world would be unable to be a fair test of us to see if we would do all things whatsoever He should command us. If the test isn't fair, then we would never qualify to recieve the rewards promised. It would be impossible. Unpleasant, unfair, terrible--yes, and absolutely necessary for our salvation. It HAS to be this way.

The 'this world is perfectly imperfect to allow for the next work to be perfect' mentality seems like wishful thinking. Evidence?

 

As to blaming god. Unacceptable harm (as deemed by our secular ethics) is within the realm of possibility in this universe. God created this universe which allows for these possibilities. I ask you, why is it not reasonable for one to blame God?

[photon propeller]

The 'this world is perfectly imperfect to allow for the next work to be perfect' mentality seems like wishful thinking. Evidence?

 

As to blaming god. Unacceptable harm (as deemed by our secular ethics) is within the realm of possibility in this universe. God created this universe which allows for these possibilities. I ask you, why is it not reasonable for one to blame God?

Do we blame the car maker for the crash? The car was intended for transportation. The driver chooses to text while he drives and he crashes. It is the drivers fault not the car maker. Crashing is the result of negative choice just as suffering is, whether it is self inflicted, inflicted by others, or an act of nature. Choice is the important factor and is the privilege of the living.

[Moontanman]

Do we blame the car maker for the crash? The car was intended for transportation. The driver chooses to text while he drives and he crashes. It is the drivers fault not the car maker. Crashing is the result of negative choice just as suffering is, whether it is self inflicted, inflicted by others, or an act of nature. Choice is the important factor and is the privilege of the living.

 

 

Actually if the car is defective the fault is the car makers...

Edited May 19, 2013 by Moontanman

[jp255]

Do we blame the car maker for the crash? The car was intended for transportation. The driver chooses to text while he drives and he crashes. It is the drivers fault not the car maker. Crashing is the result of negative choice just as suffering is, whether it is self inflicted, inflicted by others, or an act of nature. Choice is the important factor and is the privilege of the living.

Moontanman makes a good point. Overall, Do you think this universe has an acceptable probability of harmful events?

 

The comparison isn't valid though IMO. The car maker makes cars and you point out that we don't have to use them. Firstly, i'd ask how one can choose not to be in or use the universe? Secondly, God gives life the choice to live? I'm not so sure it is a fact that life gets the choice to live in this universe before living.

[aj locksmiths]

Because there is no god it is a 2000 year old fairy tale. If there is a so called god then show me what he has done for man kind. <link removed by mod>

Edited May 20, 2013 by imatfaal
removal of link per rule 7

[photon propeller]

Actually if the car is defective the fault is the car makers...

Way to state the obvious, except in my example the driver is at fault because of his poor choice to text while driving. The point was every effect has a specific cause. The choice I speak of is the choice of ones actions. You have no point other than to dodge the point.

 

Because there is no god it is a 2000 year old fairy tale. If there is a so called god then show me what he has done for man kind. <link removed by mod>

This is the typical arguement of those who are used to dealing with main stream religious ideas. You must know how one defines God before chiming in. My advise is read all the posts before commenting. In answer to your question, God has created our realm, set the rules, and allowed us to choose our path.

[pwagen]

God has created our realm, set the rules, and allowed us to choose our path.

Where's your evidence?

[krash661]

God has created our realm, set the rules, and allowed us to choose our path.

so god created everything from nothing, in a somewhere, but no where because nothing exist place ?

[Moontanman]

Way to state the obvious, except in my example the driver is at fault because of his poor choice to text while driving. The point was every effect has a specific cause. The choice I speak of is the choice of ones actions. You have no point other than to dodge the point.

 

Ok, I'll give you that but why do innocents have to suffer due to actions of others they have no control over, if the driver is texting and his passengers are maimed by the crash how is that their choice? Your argument makes sense if everyone has a choice but that is demonstrably not true...

 

This is the typical arguement of those who are used to dealing with main stream religious ideas. You must know how one defines God before chiming in. My advise is read all the posts before commenting. In answer to your question, God has created our realm, set the rules, and allowed us to choose our path.

 

God has also allowed us to choose the path of others as well, this is blatantly immoral, in fact "a God" by any definition is immoral when defined by his works....

[photon propeller]

 

Ok, I'll give you that but why do innocents have to suffer due to actions of others they have no control over, if the driver is texting and his passengers are maimed by the crash how is that their choice? Your argument makes sense if everyone has a choice but that is demonstrably not true...

 

 

God has also allowed us to choose the path of others as well, this is blatantly immoral, in fact "a God" by any definition is immoral when defined by his works....

We are responsible for the effects of our own choices. Unfortunately, the choices of others affect us. In that case they are responsible. This is liability. Sometimes it is simply mother nature. We must learn from our mistakes and be more prepared and informed so to avoid or invite the effects of others choices.