The concept of a god

[tar]

Split Infinity, and Monday's assignment die,

 

So we seem to be all arguing in the favor of some sort of moderation. That the outliers, the too strong number ones, or the too strong number two's, are taking things too far, and take them in a way that makes reality unreal for the rest of us.

 

Interesting to me, is the fact that we, as humans, have been at this being human thing, for quite a few years, quite a few lifetimes and for quite a few rises and falls of civilizations. And its always been important to us, to be right. And we have not come up empty in finding ways to be right. Nor did we ever lack the desire to share those ways with our loved ones, our neighborhoods or our societies.

 

Yesterday, a Mr. Rogers video went viral (in response to the Boston Bombings), where he explained how his Mom had told him to "look for the helpers", when experiencing horrible occurences. The helpers are always there, they are always true.

 

No doubt we count on each other to share our findings about how the world works, so that we can benefit from technology and, statistical realities, and work those things into our decisions and actions. No doubt we all depend on experts in fields other than ours, to survive and prosper, to be happy, to be right, to fit with our world.

 

It seems to me, that we have a need to share, a responsibility to share, and an automatic response that associates us, in the intuitive sense with the world around us, that is not limited by our own, or by another's rational thought about the situation.

 

Interesting to me, is that if we give each other the same human judgment, that we ourselves possess, we actually would be right, and could feel good about that fact, in and of itself.

 

Regards, TAR2

[MonDie]

So we seem to be all arguing in the favor of some sort of moderation. That the outliers, the too strong number ones, or the too strong number two's, are taking things too far, and take them in a way that makes reality unreal for the rest of us.

 

I am not advocating moderation (see anchoring heuristic), I'm simply shifting the focus. If I heard a good argument for God's existence, I would believe in God. If I heard a good argument for God's nonexistence, I would believe in the lack of gods. The thing is, it's hard to arrive at a solid conclusion when God isn't consistently defined. For example, if God simply has to be some creative intelligence, maybe God is just a metaphysical supercomputer. However, I would make the case that "God" should be defined according to its etymology. If I discovered a metaphysical supercomputer, I wouldn't call it The Burial Mound Spirit.

 

 

Interesting to me, is the fact that we, as humans, have been at this being human thing, for quite a few years, quite a few lifetimes and for quite a few rises and falls of civilizations. And its always been important to us, to be right. And we have not come up empty in finding ways to be right. Nor did we ever lack the desire to share those ways with our loved ones, our neighborhoods or our societies.

 

Yes, people certainly do enjoy being right.

 

One thing I would like to touch upon is how most religions pecieve and talk about Heavenly Rewards as they would be given that are specific and benificial only to a Human Body. Such religions go on and on about such rewards and these rewards could only be beneficial to a person with a living biological body.

 

Maybe inductive reasoning tells them that a spirit mansion is nonetheless a mansion.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[chris logan]

Then you get the wonderfully circular logic of these types of things. If you don't want to be saved you are being misguided, thus you have to be saved. The thought process is similar to a parent making a child get a flu shot. A little hurt so it won't be as bad later on. If you truly believe in an afterlife that lasts forever, and religious authorities consider themselves parents, which is either permanent torture or eternal bliss (purgatory is for losers) then that little bit of torture is justified. Not saying it's right, just saying that it almost makes sense.

But at the same time there is the reverse....Like buy that new Harley and enjoy it NOW and listen to your mom complain LATER. It's amazing, people talk about 'living in the present' and still they worry so much about the afterlife, which is something no one can prove, because, well excuse me for this one, 'dead men tell no tales' because they are dead.

[tar]

chris logan,

 

Still, people have a conscience, and judge themselves on the basis of it. As well as holding others to the same criteria.

 

Many, who do not believe in a God/Judge, still care about how their Mom would feel about their actions or lack thereof. Whether Mom is alive or not. My theory anyway.

 

Many threads ago, iNow had a great one going, talking about how religion hijacked human neurology. In that thread, we learned about how us humans develop the ability to imagine unseen others. When the various components of the feat develop, and what areas of the brain are active when this ability is excercised.

 

In my muses, it is not an entirely different thing we do, when we imagine an unseen other, that exists in reality, and when we imagine an unseen other that has passed away, or moved out of our lives, or for that matter, never existed in the first place.

I used to have conversations, in my mind, with Immortal, as I was driving home from work, imagining what he would say, and constructing a line of argument, I might try against his philosophy later that night. He got banned. Dead to the threadworld of ScienceForum, but I still consider his position, and his logic, and his lack thereof, AS IF he was reading and responding, even though I know he can't respond.

 

As well, people are known to have, especially in childhood, imaginary friends, with personality, feelings, and judgement. Unseen others, with whom a conversation, outloud or silently, can be had.

 

Not a stretch too far, in my thinking, to see that this same facility can be highjacked, or repurposed, or used, to form an unseen other, out of the real forces and forms of reality. Something like the "scientific community" or the "church", or "the human spirit", or life on Earth or the Sun, or the power apparent in the stars, personified and conversed with, and judged against, as an unseen other.

 

I do not think that dead men tell no tales. I have read too many books written by such. They are as alive to me, as Immortal currently is.

 

Regards, TAR2

[Ringer]

But at the same time there is the reverse....Like buy that new Harley and enjoy it NOW and listen to your mom complain LATER. It's amazing, people talk about 'living in the present' and still they worry so much about the afterlife, which is something no one can prove, because, well excuse me for this one, 'dead men tell no tales' because they are dead.

That's a different line of reasoning. You are making a risk/reward judgment for yourself, not someone else. To make them similar you would have to change it to taking someone's money to buy them a new Harley so they can enjoy it now, then listen to complaints. It doesn't sound quite as reasonable. Then again, I'm not that big on philosophy of ethics so if we go any further I'll probably just be lost.

[TheVillageAtheist]

Is the belief of a god important? does it really matter if a person believes in a higher power or not? How does that belief impact our world? Why should people debate whether or not god exists, can't it be a simple case of 'live and let live'?

 

Yes, religion is extremely important in our world. It is a motivator for good and bad behavior, sometimes exceptionally good or bad behavior. It colors our language and our culture. It is the hinge of hugely consequential social and political debates.

 

The reason we should debate the merits of religion or the existence of God is that, like any philosophy, it has real consequences. A thousand years ago, when Islam was inclusive and promoting art and science, you would hope that people continue believing to foster the atmosphere of discovery and scholarship. Today, with terrorism and poverty and oppression perpetrated and perpetuated by Islamic fundamentalists, you might want to convince people to leave the faith.

[SplitInfinity]

Yes, religion is extremely important in our world. It is a motivator for good and bad behavior, sometimes exceptionally good or bad behavior. It colors our language and our culture. It is the hinge of hugely consequential social and political debates.

 

The reason we should debate the merits of religion or the existence of God is that, like any philosophy, it has real consequences. A thousand years ago, when Islam was inclusive and promoting art and science, you would hope that people continue believing to foster the atmosphere of discovery and scholarship. Today, with terrorism and poverty and oppression perpetrated and perpetuated by Islamic fundamentalists, you might want to convince people to leave the faith.

Although I agree that for some people Religion is a good thing in that Religions have a basic Reward/Punishment doctrin that does have an effect upon Human Behavior.

 

There in lies the root of a Greater Problem.

 

If people could evolve to the point that treating another in a good way...a way that they themselves would like to be treated...would be THE SOLE PURPOSE OF HUMAN KINDNESS AND UNDERSTANDING...this world would be a far better place.

 

I mean...how sad is it that for many...the only reason they do not behave in a murderous or vicious manner is the threat of Eternal Damnation?

 

Split Infinity

[chris logan]

Although I agree that for some people Religion is a good thing in that Religions have a basic Reward/Punishment doctrin that does have an effect upon Human Behavior.

 

There in lies the root of a Greater Problem.

 

If people could evolve to the point that treating another in a good way...a way that they themselves would like to be treated...would be THE SOLE PURPOSE OF HUMAN KINDNESS AND UNDERSTANDING...this world would be a far better place.

 

I mean...how sad is it that for many...the only reason they do not behave in a murderous or vicious manner is the threat of Eternal Damnation?

 

Split Infinity

well if it makes them better people, I guess that's okay... but read previous posts, sometimes people do horrid things in the name of god..

[MonDie]

I was suggesting that religious belief is usually spread by bad arguments that appeal to system 1. For example, arguing that a particular atheist is mysogynistic [sic] to make the case that atheism leads to mysogyny [sic]. That's a bad argument that preys upon at least one fallacious way of thinking people are prone to, namely, focusing on individual cases rather than overall statistics.

 

Of course, this wasn't supposed to imply that an atheist can't be misogynistic. But even if there are some misogynistic atheists, I'm still an (ignostic) atheist. I wouldn't know anything about the issue since I'm just an hermitic 20 year old guy that's not part of any movement.

 

---

 

Anyway, what about the Soviets? Does irreligion necessarily make things better?

Correlations between ideologies/behaviors mustn't suggest a causal relationship.

 

By the way, if you're an agnostic atheist, die, heretic!

Edited April 20, 2013 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[SplitInfinity]

Of course, this wasn't supposed to imply that an atheist can't be misogynistic. But even if there are some misogynistic atheists, I'm still an (ignostic) atheist. I wouldn't know anything about the issue since I'm just an hermitic 20 year old guy that's not part of any movement.

 

---

 

Anyway, what about the Soviets? Does irreligion necessarily make things better?

Correlations between ideologies/behaviors mustn't suggest a causal relationship.

 

By the way, if you're an agnostic atheist, die, heretic!

 

There is a big difference between a person being an atheist or agnostic as apposed to a system of Government that is against Freedom of Religion.

 

Now I am agnostic but I would never dream of forcing another to either not believe in a GOD nor would I attempt to force them to believe in a GOD or any particular religion.

 

What I get irked about is when a few people come to my door early in the morning in some attempt to preach to me what in their minds in the ONE TRUE RELIGION. Then I get handed some panflets and then they attempt to give me a few books...which they say are free but a DONATION would be appreciated.

 

The problem is that many religious people just can't respect another person who say's...No thank you. As many of the door to door type do so as their religion states they must spread the word or they feel that unless a person such as myself converts or follows their religious beliefs that that will be the only way to save my SOUL! LOL!

 

I always tell such religious types...My SOUL...if I have one...is just fine thank you....NOW GET OFF MY FRONT PORCH!

 

I have this theory...I think that if an actual GOD exists...and an actual Heaven and Hell...there has GOT to be some place inbetween where all these Bell Ringing Pains get sent and for a thousand years they have to get waken up early every morning from a sound sleep to answer their door by OZZIE OZZBORNE...as he then asks...Blimey! Have you seen my pet BAT?

 

Split Infinity

[TheVillageAtheist]

Anyway, what about the Soviets? Does irreligion necessarily make things better?

 

Correlations between ideologies/behaviors mustn't suggest a causal relationship

 

 

Ideology can be dangerous regardless of the brand. However, religious ideology tends to be dangerous with more frequency than non-religious ideology.

 

I also would hesitate to classify the soviets as irreligious. Yes, atheism was a bit of a prerequisite for Stalinism, but Stalinism was also something of a pseudo-religion. North Korea is a more crystalline example of this: A non-theistic nation that has simply replaced traditional gods with the Dear Leader.

Edited April 20, 2013 by TheVillageAtheist

[MonDie]

Ideology can be dangerous regardless of the brand. However, religious ideology tends to be dangerous with more frequency than non-religious ideology.

 

I also would hesitate to classify the soviets as irreligious. Yes, atheism was a bit of a prerequisite for Stalinism, but Stalinism was also something of a pseudo-religion. North Korea is a more crystalline example of this: A non-theistic nation that has simply replaced traditional gods with the Dear Leader.

 

Some religious people would say non-religious ideology is more dangerous.

 

With the mention of correlation ≠ causation, I was suggesting that people with certain violent proclivities may be more attracted to or more attached to religions or ideologies.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[TheVillageAtheist]

Some religious people would say non-religious ideology is more dangerous.

 

They'd be wrong.

 

Religious ideology, more than any other kind, breeds violence because of the grand claims it makes for itself. It positions God as the creator, the source of all life, and makes him the ultimate moral authority. And adherence to his creeds promises the ultimate reward, while the ultimate punishment is meted out to those who do not. No non-religious ideology could possibly make such claims, and without such claims there are--as history has proven--far fewer people willing to sacrifice their integrity and common sense. Yes, non-religious ideologies can and do lead to violence and other ills, but not with the rate or consistency of religion.

 

With the mention of correlation ≠ causation, I was suggesting that people with certain violent proclivities may be more attracted to or more attached to religions or ideologies.

 

If most people came to their religion by choice, I might agree. But the vast majority of people who belong to a given sect do so because they were born into it, so it's difficult to say that violent people are more prone to religion when it in fact was not violence that lead them there but chance.

 

And we have plenty of evidence of otherwise normal, well-adjusted people killing themselves and others in the name of their faith.These two Boston bombers, for example. One was a boxer, but he was by most accounts a pretty normal guy. He wasn't torturing cats, or fitting the profile of the kind of person you're imagining would be drawn to violent ideologies. It's going to turn out that he did this for Allah.

 

How many of the 9/11 hijackers were otherwise normal people? Many had college degrees and careers. So I'm not buying that religious violence is perpetrated even predominantly by crazy people. History shows us again and again that religious ideology is a powerful influence on the human psyche, and makes even normal, peaceful people do terrible things. No other ideology that I can think of is capable of such a thing.

Edited April 21, 2013 by TheVillageAtheist

[tar]

Any ideology can wind up at odds with another ideology, and it only matters at that point, who is in position to push the other off the bridge.

[MonDie]

If most people came to their religion by choice, I might agree. But the vast majority of people who belong to a given sect do so because they were born into it, so it's difficult to say that violent people are more prone to religion when it in fact was not violence that lead them there but chance.

 

The extent to which they believe and the way they act on those beliefs could be influenced by personal psychological attributes. However, if it's consistently true that religious perpetrators are psychologically unique from nonreligious perpetrators, you have a good case for religion having a unique effect.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[tar]

Mondays Assignment Die,

 

Being unique psychologically may be behind both religious and nonreligious anti-social acts and thoughts.

 

Consider the ununique tendency we all have, to side with our own unique attributes and circumstances. There is not a one of us, that is not born into a unique situation, in reference to the rest of the world. We each are at a particular place and time, of a differnciating sex, height, wheight, intelligence, native language, wealth, personality and so forth, with a unique "story" or group of "stories" against which we reference our lives. And we each have a unique history of what we have experienced, what we have learned, what capabilies we have aquired and each have a pretty good "unique" idea of what we "should" be doing next, to put the world "right", or to associate ourselves in the correct manner, with it.

 

We each have free will, to the extent that we excercise our own unique will.

 

But unique from what, and consistent with what other wills is an important consideration. For both the religious, and the nonreligious actor. For both evil acts and good ones it depends a lot on who one has assigned or recognized to be the judge of the situation.

 

Regards, TAR2

Edited April 21, 2013 by tar

[SplitInfinity]

 

People forget that Human Beings are part of the Animal Kingdom. We are one culmination of Billions of years of Biological Evolution and we are specifically evolved to be a part of the Earth's enviroment.

 

As the Human Race and ancestors of that existed a s Bi-Pedal...we have been around in one form or another for close to 5 Million Years and we have evolved some traits that have allowed us to be at the top of the food chain.

 

Now when most people are asked what traits evolved broght us to the top of this chain most would reply...Our large and complex brain of course. Now this is absolutely true but there are a few other evolved traits that are just as important.

 

One of the traits is the unparralled Fat Storage and Metabolic Energy Conversing ability of Humans. There exists no other animal on Planet Earth that can out run or out distance by duration of passed time and distance covered...a Human Being. Because of our highly efficient manner in which we store Fat to be converted to energy as well as how a person can regulate the energy burn necessary to run extremely long distances...a Human will track down and run down any other existing Land Animal on Earth. Because of this evolved trait Humans were able to kill prey thus increase our intake of protein which led to development of a large and complex brain.

 

Being Bi-Pedal was necessary for this development and we evolved to becoming as such as the one time African Jungles dissapeared due to climate change and dry grassy Savannahs replaced the trees our ancestors once climbed and as a result Humans became Bi-Pedal and walked upright in order to be able to see both prey and predator at a distance as well as to be able to roam these vast grassy plains.

 

Point of all this is our original insticts and choices based upon Free Will were not governed by Religion or even the concepts of right and wrong...they were governed by SURVIVAL. Killing another Human Ancestor was driven by territory, food supply, water supply, availability of breeding age females and the rise of the Alpha Male which was a necessary evil for the ensured survival of the clan.

 

Today we do not have such issues to such a degree but still they persist and what people seem to forget...WE ARE NOT ALL THAT REMOVED...if we are removed at all...from our greater animalistic state that was necessary for our survival.

 

Split Infinity

[tar]

SplitIninity,

 

So what are you saying? That God is a placeholder for the Alpha Male? The Ultimate Alpha Male? That whatever benefit it was to submit to the alpha male, is still an important consideration?

 

Could be.

 

People do tend to submit to the leader who is the most knowledgeable, the strongest and the most capable.

 

Many leaders are strong, smart, or knowledgeable, or some combination of those traits. Not often do people trust in the laziess, stupidest, weakest, and most foolish and uncoordinated to follow. Not many reasons to do that.

 

While there has been a shift to a large extent, from personal power, to accrued financial, and military, and technological power, we may still have a "need" to imagine we have a chief that trumps and can overpower all comers. That we are on the side of this idealised supreme leader.

 

Seems to be so in North Korea. Most groups of people operate with at least a figurehead in that position, if not an actual King, Queen, President, Chief, Mullah, Chairman, General, Grand Poopa, dictator, Pope, or "spiritual" leader.

 

Its sort of either that, or anarchy.

 

Perhaps putting ones faith in an Immortal leader that can not be killed, is actually a good strategy.

 

Unfalsifyable, unstrikable, impervious to any possible weapon, no way to defeat.

A power one can imagine even the strongest, smartest, richest most capable person or group of people, having to answer to.

 

Regards, TAR2

[SplitInfinity]

SplitIninity,

 

So what are you saying? That God is a placeholder for the Alpha Male? The Ultimate Alpha Male? That whatever benefit it was to submit to the alpha male, is still an important consideration?

 

Could be.

 

People do tend to submit to the leader who is the most knowledgeable, the strongest and the most capable.

 

Many leaders are strong, smart, or knowledgeable, or some combination of those traits. Not often do people trust in the laziess, stupidest, weakest, and most foolish and uncoordinated to follow. Not many reasons to do that.

 

While there has been a shift to a large extent, from personal power, to accrued financial, and military, and technological power, we may still have a "need" to imagine we have a chief that trumps and can overpower all comers. That we are on the side of this idealised supreme leader.

 

Seems to be so in North Korea. Most groups of people operate with at least a figurehead in that position, if not an actual King, Queen, President, Chief, Mullah, Chairman, General, Grand Poopa, dictator, Pope, or "spiritual" leader.

 

Its sort of either that, or anarchy.

 

Perhaps putting ones faith in an Immortal leader that can not be killed, is actually a good strategy.

 

Unfalsifyable, unstrikable, impervious to any possible weapon, no way to defeat.

A power one can imagine even the strongest, smartest, richest most capable person or group of people, having to answer to.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

In our past the rise of an Alpha Male was an absolute necessity for the survival of the clan. And becoming an Alpha Male was not just due to strength but also due to intelligence...the ability to develop tactics and strategies and being able to make the right choices to ensure survival of the clan.

 

Now this still goes on to this day and reguardless of the rise of Women in Leadership...it is still basically the same just that women are able to accend to such positions as they no onger have the problem or fear of being physically dominated.

 

I talk about this as I am trying to show how Good or Evil is relative to ones condition and situation.

 

Split Infinity

[tar]

Split,

 

I think you are right.

 

It fits with my thinking, that good is what fits, and evil is what does not work.

 

It is an inside out way of thinking, but I think it may be what we do when we think of God.

 

Maybe not accidental that God and good are so close in form in English. (I will have to do a little study and see if the relationship between correctness and ultimate leadership of the supernatural sort, exists in other languages as well.)

 

By the way, I read the other day that "supernatural" first came about due to the placement of metaphysical studies "after" the study of natural sciences in books and courses. This is important because I have been using "supernatural" as a synomym for unnatural or unreal, and it may be nothing of the sort. It may be best to consider supernatural as that which we do with the natural after we internalize it. Thus considering any idealization of nature a supernatural endeavor.

 

Regards, TAR2

[tar]

Did the quick study. Out of 67 languages in Google translate, the God good and Devil evil similarity did not show up once. One or the other pair showed up occasionally, but the similarity is pretty much accidental.

[tompaine111]

Here is the concept of god:

 

Whether you believe there is a god or you do not believe, is a relatively minor problem.

 

And here is why.

 

If we assume the classic idea about god, it is that god is perfect.

 

And that god created all things. That he is eternal, having no starting or ending point, is everywhere all the time, knows all things, and has unlimited absolute power., can and does control everything. (Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent.)

 

 

Now, here is where the concept of god to us mortal presents a strange and terrifying contradiction, that you can test (at least using your mind):

 

If God created all things, and he is perfect..then you must ask, why aren't all things perfect. Because they are in fact, not perfect. People suffer, die, children and killed, and people sin. Humans are not perfect. If you believe in evil, which almost all religions describe as a part of this world, such as the satan and his demons, then you must ask, how is it also that imperfect angels, a creation of god, came to be.

 

This creation process from a perfect god, but realizes evil and imperfection presents the contradiction.

 

In this, we must come to realize that this can be only explained with several ideas, and none of them are very good for supporting the classic "god theory".

 

Based solely on what humans "know" about god, and the above unsettling facts about our own existence, an imperfect one, at best, Here are a few ideas that run counter to popular belief models about god:

 

1. God is not at all what we believe god to be. (How can an imperfect human actually know ANYTHING perfect? name one thing that is perfect, and for that moment in time, you have just performed a god power. Humans are not god, not perfect. We cannot know perfect)

2. God might not exist at all.

3. God exists, but is not perfect.

4. God may have been at one point in time a perfect entity, but at the moment that imperfect events and even thoughts occured, that ended the perfect streak.

5. It is possible that there are (or were) competing gods, very powerful and with a heirarchy (some have more power and influence than others) his helps to explain how we arrive at a god and satan world, where chaos and imperfection is what we experience.

 

 

Now, I could go on and on and on...the list of different ways to describe and solve this puzzle of how a perfect god could really be given credit for this world is quite endless.

 

But I will leave you all with an interesting question, one that all believers and thinking humans who grapple with the silly ideas defended by "religion", should be compelled to at least be highly critical and skeptical of:

 

it is this:

 

Setup. God is perfect, or was, before all of this universe and humans and angels came into being. When there was only God, alone. There was nothing but God. It was perfect.

 

What possible motivation and what possible benefit or expectations would god have by creating all of this.

 

After all, we are talking about a god who knows everything, has all of the power, can be everywhere all the time.

 

To create a world KNOWING full well that it would be less than perfect, seems insane..the act of a very strange and sad god.

 

If god wanted company, he would have created another clone of himself....perfectly.

 

the fact that god did not do this, and elected to make this world...well, I think that tells us something about a perfect god.

 

I don't know god. I have no idea what perfect is.

 

But I know what perfect IS NOT...and that is humans, sin, and the world that we live in.

 

As fascinating and incredibly complex as my existence is, it is a complete mystery to who I shall call my master. Or what talents I truly believe this god possesses.

 

I think this was the argument made by satan fundamentally. if god had desired to create, he should have done it full on, perfectly.

 

What we witness is that he failed to perform that. He allowed sin, and imperfection. And then has the nerve to insist WE ALL CARRY SIN ON OUR SHOULDERS.

 

I think satan is alot more like humans than we believe. And god...even closer, although what we are told to believe is that god is nothing like us

 

But if god exists, while he has more power than humans, he is ultimately responsible for all the problems he created.

 

that is perhaps the most important fundamental contradiction that all thinking people need to grasp.

 

Summary: we do not know of anything perfect. We cannot even describe a single thing as perfect, as timeless, as all present, all powerful.

 

Humans do not know God..

 

get used to that fact. It is unfortunately a strange arrangement made exclusive by God.

 

How bout them apples?

[DARK HUNTER]

I'm an theist in the sense of the classical description of God. But I bear an open mind...

I have 3 theories:

 

1: God doesn't exist and the reason God appears in almost all cultures of the world is because of some common,almost evolution-envoked need to describe the various phenomena around them to satisfy their instinctual curiosity. In the lack of scientific knowlegde it is far easier to just say that there is a higher being making things happen.

 

2. There is a God and he is a lot like today's most popular religions describe him. Rather a being with common characteristics among those religions.

 

3. If there is a God than this is most likely it: God does exist but in a somewhat different shape. He isn't an invisible grey bearded man sitting in the sky watching everything you do every minute of your entire life but a non/semi sentient natural force. Like an undetectable web penetrating all space with which the human mind can weakly interact (a form of mental energy?). This one is a little difficult to understand at first.

[SplitInfinity]

Here is the concept of god:

 

Whether you believe there is a god or you do not believe, is a relatively minor problem.

 

And here is why.

 

If we assume the classic idea about god, it is that god is perfect.

 

And that god created all things. That he is eternal, having no starting or ending point, is everywhere all the time, knows all things, and has unlimited absolute power., can and does control everything. (Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent.)

 

 

Now, here is where the concept of god to us mortal presents a strange and terrifying contradiction, that you can test (at least using your mind):

 

If God created all things, and he is perfect..then you must ask, why aren't all things perfect. Because they are in fact, not perfect. People suffer, die, children and killed, and people sin. Humans are not perfect. If you believe in evil, which almost all religions describe as a part of this world, such as the satan and his demons, then you must ask, how is it also that imperfect angels, a creation of god, came to be.

 

This creation process from a perfect god, but realizes evil and imperfection presents the contradiction.

 

In this, we must come to realize that this can be only explained with several ideas, and none of them are very good for supporting the classic "god theory".

 

Based solely on what humans "know" about god, and the above unsettling facts about our own existence, an imperfect one, at best, Here are a few ideas that run counter to popular belief models about god:

 

1. God is not at all what we believe god to be. (How can an imperfect human actually know ANYTHING perfect? name one thing that is perfect, and for that moment in time, you have just performed a god power. Humans are not god, not perfect. We cannot know perfect)

2. God might not exist at all.

3. God exists, but is not perfect.

4. God may have been at one point in time a perfect entity, but at the moment that imperfect events and even thoughts occured, that ended the perfect streak.

5. It is possible that there are (or were) competing gods, very powerful and with a heirarchy (some have more power and influence than others) his helps to explain how we arrive at a god and satan world, where chaos and imperfection is what we experience.

 

 

Now, I could go on and on and on...the list of different ways to describe and solve this puzzle of how a perfect god could really be given credit for this world is quite endless.

 

But I will leave you all with an interesting question, one that all believers and thinking humans who grapple with the silly ideas defended by "religion", should be compelled to at least be highly critical and skeptical of:

 

it is this:

 

Setup. God is perfect, or was, before all of this universe and humans and angels came into being. When there was only God, alone. There was nothing but God. It was perfect.

 

What possible motivation and what possible benefit or expectations would god have by creating all of this.

 

After all, we are talking about a god who knows everything, has all of the power, can be everywhere all the time.

 

To create a world KNOWING full well that it would be less than perfect, seems insane..the act of a very strange and sad god.

 

If god wanted company, he would have created another clone of himself....perfectly.

 

the fact that god did not do this, and elected to make this world...well, I think that tells us something about a perfect god.

 

I don't know god. I have no idea what perfect is.

 

But I know what perfect IS NOT...and that is humans, sin, and the world that we live in.

 

As fascinating and incredibly complex as my existence is, it is a complete mystery to who I shall call my master. Or what talents I truly believe this god possesses.

 

I think this was the argument made by satan fundamentally. if god had desired to create, he should have done it full on, perfectly.

 

What we witness is that he failed to perform that. He allowed sin, and imperfection. And then has the nerve to insist WE ALL CARRY SIN ON OUR SHOULDERS.

 

I think satan is alot more like humans than we believe. And god...even closer, although what we are told to believe is that god is nothing like us

 

But if god exists, while he has more power than humans, he is ultimately responsible for all the problems he created.

 

that is perhaps the most important fundamental contradiction that all thinking people need to grasp.

 

Summary: we do not know of anything perfect. We cannot even describe a single thing as perfect, as timeless, as all present, all powerful.

 

Humans do not know God..

 

get used to that fact. It is unfortunately a strange arrangement made exclusive by God.

 

How bout them apples?

 

I would just LOVE to read someone talk about GOD in a manner that does not refer to the word GOD as a person, a male or female, an entity, an Alien or having any connection whatsoever to Good or Evil as I find such words and their meanings too subjective as well as whether a person is a relatively..."Good Guy or Gal"....or a Raving Lunatic....or a Murderous Bastard...I find to be conditions of Human Behavior that originate from our Mental and Physical States as well as Driving Instinct as well as Disease.

 

All these conditions or physical or mental states and they can be developed over time by condition, disease, environment, GENETICS...which is the big one...as just about all the things I mention here are created or rooted within the Human Genome...and even...BRAINWASHING...ie...Garnishing Control over another thoughts, decision making abilities and beliefs that extend from the real world to the perception of a Reality that only exists within the Brainwashed individuals mind.

 

So...say a person shoots another dead. Now why did they do it? The possibilities are endless. For protection, for revenge, by accident, due to insanity, due to chemical interference with the Brains decision making abilities or area that allows empathy or regret, Genetic disposition to be violent, childhood abuse...etc...etc...etc...

 

The point is that in anyone of these possibilities...there is a REASON why a person commits what would be considered an EVIL ACT. That reason is one they could be aware of or not. Because of this...it is logically possible to use Gene Therapy and this will be used to a greater and greater extent in the future...to either cure Mental Diseases, Genetic Anomalies, Chemical Dependence, Hormone or other Brain Chemical imbalances....etc...etc...etc..

 

In ALL CASES...there is a REASON why people do what they do...be it good or what we call EVIL.

 

And just so the people who are overly SELF-RIGHTEOUS that would disagree....the reason why a person DOES A GOOD DEED...and after doing so...FEELS GOOD ABOUT DOING IT....thus they want to do it more...is because once doing such a Good Thing...chemicals and hormones such as Endorphins, Dopamine, Oxytocin, Adrenaline...etc...etc...etc.

 

When a person goes to Church and sings a song or goes to a Religious Rock Concert and throws their head back and holds their arms in the air...and even when a person drops off some old cloths at the Salvation Army Depot...and after doing so feels good....THEY ARE FEELING GOOD BECAUSE THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN A CRACK ADDICT SMOKES A PIPE IS HAPPENING TO THEM....a release into the brain of these chemicals.

 

So...just remember...the feeling you get when you drop off some canned goods at a Survival Center or make Baked Goods for a Church Bake Sale...and after doing so and being apart...You Feel Good...the same exact thing is happening in the Mentally Ill Psychopath Who Get's Off Raping and Murdering their Victims...their Brain is being drenched in Chemicals that make both you and them FEEL GOOD.

 

Split Infinity

[photon propeller]

Some times doing whats best doesnt always feel good, in fact it can hurt like hell. What sets humans apart is the ability to contemplate a desired outcome or consequences and execute the act whether it feels good or not. It is the beauty of choice and God has granted mankind the privilege. Positive and negative both have a time and place and are always intrinsic to nature.