Would it be correct to say that the presence of Probability within Quantum Mechanics and other areas of Physics, make PREDICTION impossible.

[kristalris]

Kris...as far as the time thing is concerned...we have determined just in our Universal State that Time is Relative as well as things like Time Dilation are a reality. This is just in our Universal Reality.

 

Now you stated 12 hours 3 minutes..etc...ago...you were in a different time zone.

 

That time passage is experienced and observed to pass by you. If I was flying in a Space Craft orbiting earth at Relativistic Speeds and left earth at the moment you left your position in that other time zone...and came back to Earth at the moment you made that statement...let's say I spent a total about of passed time for me of 5 Minutes to leave and come back right as you typed how long a time had passed for you since you had been in that other time zone.

 

So for me...5 minutes had passes due to the velocity and distance I was orbiting Earth...for you...12 hours plus passed...and this is because of Time Dilation.

 

Now imagine a Multiversal System...and it's true I cannot prove it to exist but it would account for the way Quantum Mechanics works and how Quanta can be both particle and wave...but imagine a Multiverse as a giant infinite forest. Each tree is an independent Universal Grouping and each branch infinite in number on each tree is a Divergent Universal Reality.

 

Each Tree being a Group of Universal Realities would have the same natural laws for every branch or Universal Reality upon that tree. Thus each Tree or Universal Group would have natural laws and constructs completely different than every other tree or Universal Grouping.

 

This would allow for Universal Groups where say...Life does not exist...and such a Group would have Infinite Divergent Universal Realities...each one not having life but existing as a Branch off that Groupings original Baseline Reality.

 

Split Infinity

Before I can answer this I'd like to hear from Mike whether he thinks me answering this is helpful to his OP?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Before I can answer this I'd like to hear from Mike whether he thinks me answering this is helpful to his OP?

 

Fire away ! Fine by me ! Go ahead.

[cladking]

 

 

His point was...there is no such thing as IMPOSSIBILITY. There is no such thing as Statistical IMPOSSIBILITY. The fact that the couple in the paper had won shows us that THINGS AND EVENTS WILL HAPPEN IF THEY CAN...AND EVEN IF WE CALCULATE THEY CAN'T...THEY STILL FIND A WAY TO OCCUR.

 

This is simply untrue. Even everything that happens is effectively a statistical impossility. The tiniest grain of sand had to cleave from a boulder in exactly the right way and be worn by collisions while segregating with other grains by waves dancing on the tide. You can't even properly address the impossility of what exists far less make predictions about how a grain of sand will cause a catastrophy leading to political turmoil in 25 years.

 

Tolstoy might have made his statement in a different way; "War and Piece". This ship has sailed. It is what it is and no kind of infinity can change it.

 

We can't and never will be able to predict anyrthing at all. The world is choreographed not determined. The dance is impossibly complex and humans no longer see their cues but it dances along without us.

 

He then asked me...after he flipped a quarter and it came up heads...."What is the probability that it came up heads?" I was about to say immediately....50/50...but knowing him now...I stopped my mouth from flapping and thought. I then said...100%

 

It's funny that it was a simple question about a coin that got me started on one of my current tacks. It was asked where the terms "heads and tails" originated. Like many etymologies this might not be so simple as it sounds because people have long played fast and loose with language. Flippping coins has long interested me on several levels anyway and primarily as a magician who can make it come up either. The aerodynamics are also interesting since most US coins sail more cleanly with the "tails" side up; it tends to be the default position when all else is equal.

 

The word for "coin" actually originated in a fossil which is a large component of the Great Pyramid. It was an animal that lived in the ocean that was disc shaped. These might have been used for currency even before the invention of money which was simply official weights of silver and gold stamped by an authority. These animals had a dorsal and ventril side and there's some limited evidence that the Greeks (who actuall "coined" the term "numis") tarred the dorsal side to fascilitate differentiation when they played games with them. This is all speculative, of course, at this point in time. "Heads" became the side with the bust and "tails" was the opposite.

 

So what are the odds of a flipped coin coming up "heads"? If you use a US quarter then what are the odds that Washington ever even existed? What are the odds he'd toss a silver dollar across the Potomac or become president? What are the odds that the quarter you're flipping was made before the aerodynamics were reversed in 1996? What effect does the wear on the older version have on the odds of the flip? What are the chances that a meteor will destroy the coin while still in the air?

 

Perhaps this is a good perspective; there are only two odds for anything 0% or 100%.

[SplitInfinity]

This is simply untrue. Even everything that happens is effectively a statistical impossility. The tiniest grain of sand had to cleave from a boulder in exactly the right way and be worn by collisions while segregating with other grains by waves dancing on the tide. You can't even properly address the impossility of what exists far less make predictions about how a grain of sand will cause a catastrophy leading to political turmoil in 25 years.

 

Tolstoy might have made his statement in a different way; "War and Piece". This ship has sailed. It is what it is and no kind of infinity can change it.

 

We can't and never will be able to predict anyrthing at all. The world is choreographed not determined. The dance is impossibly complex and humans no longer see their cues but it dances along without us.

 

 

It's funny that it was a simple question about a coin that got me started on one of my current tacks. It was asked where the terms "heads and tails" originated. Like many etymologies this might not be so simple as it sounds because people have long played fast and loose with language. Flippping coins has long interested me on several levels anyway and primarily as a magician who can make it come up either. The aerodynamics are also interesting since most US coins sail more cleanly with the "tails" side up; it tends to be the default position when all else is equal.

 

The word for "coin" actually originated in a fossil which is a large component of the Great Pyramid. It was an animal that lived in the ocean that was disc shaped. These might have been used for currency even before the invention of money which was simply official weights of silver and gold stamped by an authority. These animals had a dorsal and ventril side and there's some limited evidence that the Greeks (who actuall "coined" the term "numis") tarred the dorsal side to fascilitate differentiation when they played games with them. This is all speculative, of course, at this point in time. "Heads" became the side with the bust and "tails" was the opposite.

 

So what are the odds of a flipped coin coming up "heads"? If you use a US quarter then what are the odds that Washington ever even existed? What are the odds he'd toss a silver dollar across the Potomac or become president? What are the odds that the quarter you're flipping was made before the aerodynamics were reversed in 1996? What effect does the wear on the older version have on the odds of the flip? What are the chances that a meteor will destroy the coin while still in the air?

 

Perhaps this is a good perspective; there are only two odds for anything 0% or 100%.

Clad...if we knew the position and state f every single particle existing in our Universe...and because our Universe is FINITE...regardless of any Multiversal Quantum Interconnectivity existing...thus our Universe is a CLOSED SYSTEM...so because of this and if we knew....IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE TO PREDICT ACCURATELY TO 100% EVERY POSSIBLE ACTION, REACTION, STATE, CONDITION, EVENT, HAPPENING, OCCURRENCE FROM THEN ON TILL THE END OF OUR UNIVERSES EXISTENCE.

 

WE WOULD BE ABLE TO KNOW....EVERYTHING THAT WOULD HAPPEN AND BE ABLE TO PREDICT WITH 100% ACCURACY SUCH THINGS AS....Where would exist and be located a single Proton or Neutron as well as what would be it's future state or function or condition or action or in what construct will it be existing....or non-existing in the case it might be swallowed by a Black Hole....from the moment we knew where all the particles in the Universe were positioned and every subsequent moment until the end of our Universes Existence.

 

We could know what you would be doing and where you would be doing it at and with who and what the weather would be 20 years from now....and even know if for some unfortunate reason you had passed away...if you were say buried in one of those Hermetically Sealed Zinc-lined Coffins which will not remained sealed as the body decays the building up of Gases such as Methane and others will create to great a stress upon such a coffin due to the interior atm. pressure of the building gases due to decay and the coffin will then EXPLODE to a point and thus rupture it's seal at which time the Atoms and Molecules that comprise your body will be able to be relocated by a variety of means one of being Bacteria consuming what was once your body and thus we would be able to actually know where the location of one ATOM that was a part of your left index finger located at one time as part of the flesh that was located 20 Microns deep through a layer of skin right at the very center point of a fold that existed to allow the bending of that index finger and that fold being located 2.11673 Centimeters from the edge of the cuticle...as that atom in particular we were able to trace it's journey from that finger then injected by a Bacterium which itself was digested by another Organism which itself was digested by a Multicellular animal only 1/2000ths of a centimeter long and that creature moved upwards by 1.89 meters and then itself was consumed by another creature which eventually exited the concrete vault that held your coffin and was eated by an insect that traveled by flight some 2.5 miles North/Northwest until it was smashed upon the window of a 2038 Ford F-150 Pickup that was just purchased by an Allen Daily who then drove the truck 5.9 miles to his home which was located only 2.1 miles from your home...and in his driveway he took some Windex and washed away the bug mush as well as you One Time Fingers Atom which was then attached to the paper towel he used and this was thrown into his Home Bio-Degrade Compost Unit where part of your finger has now become compost for Allen's Garden and eventually that Atom is used and becomes part of a Tomato Plant and is part of a Tomato itself which is picked and eaten 6 months later by Dan's 6 year old daughter Sally and 24 hours later the digested remenants of that Tomato/Your Finger are being flushed down a toilet where that atom is floated off to a sewage processing plant and becomes part of the Water that is released into the river clean and out to the ocean it goes where it is again used to help create and grow a baby shrimp which eventually is caught and sold to a cheap sushi bar where it is left out of the fridge too long and make a girl named Chloe sick as she uses the Ladies Room and in an attempt to vomit puts her fingers down her throat and does so but your ATOM/Finger ends up getting stuck under her Left Fingernail where for a time exists some SYMMETRY...until she cleans it.....etc...etc...etc..

 

POINT IS....if we knew where the position of all the Particles in the Universe were...we would know every single possible thing about everything to happen and will happen...till the end of our Universes Existence.

 

Split Infinity

[cladking]

C

POINT IS....if we knew where the position of all the Particles in the Universe were...we would know every single possible thing about everything to happen and will happen...till the end of our Universes Existence.

 

I think you're wrong on far more levels than I can imagine.

 

Have you ever played pool? Ever try a combination shot where you hit a ball driving it into a second ball which in turn drives a third ball into a pocket. These balls are spherical and can be seen to model the laws of motion (most of the time). They are huge and the three of them can take up 5% of their combined trajectory. Only the best players can make such shots and even the best will require half a second to lay it out in his mind before attempting it.

 

What you're proposing is essentially a quadrillion ball combination shot with balls that are nearly infinitely small, of unknown size and shape, and flying about in a heavy soup of other balls and forces which we don't even understand. We could never gain the computational ability to projecvt more than the tiniest fraction of a second intoi the future even if we could somehow learn the places and trajectories of the particals. Even at that there would be errors everywhere because we can will never find two things that are identical and these dissimilarities between reality and our observations will play havoc on future states.

 

Further, you are assuming that there is no such thing as free will. You might claim you're making no such claim but, of course you are. If the future is predictable at all then you'd know if my great great grandson will have one apple or two apples. Such things are as unknowable as why a butterfly flaps it's wings in China at the exact right instant to cause a typhoon in India. All life follows a choreographed script but there is room in the dance for the butterfly to flap its wings at one moment or 2.73 seconds later. There is room for a boy to have one apple or two.

 

On another level it's nearly irrelevant anyway if the universe really were so predictable since the computational ability to project it would require the room taken up by an infinite number of universes.

 

Reality simply can't work the way you are suggesting.

[SplitInfinity]

I think you're wrong on far more levels than I can imagine.

 

Have you ever played pool? Ever try a combination shot where you hit a ball driving it into a second ball which in turn drives a third ball into a pocket. These balls are spherical and can be seen to model the laws of motion (most of the time). They are huge and the three of them can take up 5% of their combined trajectory. Only the best players can make such shots and even the best will require half a second to lay it out in his mind before attempting it.

 

What you're proposing is essentially a quadrillion ball combination shot with balls that are nearly infinitely small, of unknown size and shape, and flying about in a heavy soup of other balls and forces which we don't even understand. We could never gain the computational ability to projecvt more than the tiniest fraction of a second intoi the future even if we could somehow learn the places and trajectories of the particals. Even at that there would be errors everywhere because we can will never find two things that are identical and these dissimilarities between reality and our observations will play havoc on future states.

 

Further, you are assuming that there is no such thing as free will. You might claim you're making no such claim but, of course you are. If the future is predictable at all then you'd know if my great great grandson will have one apple or two apples. Such things are as unknowable as why a butterfly flaps it's wings in China at the exact right instant to cause a typhoon in India. All life follows a choreographed script but there is room in the dance for the butterfly to flap its wings at one moment or 2.73 seconds later. There is room for a boy to have one apple or two.

 

On another level it's nearly irrelevant anyway if the universe really were so predictable since the computational ability to project it would require the room taken up by an infinite number of universes.

 

Reality simply can't work the way you are suggesting.

 

Nevertheless...what I state is true. The only way it will work is if EVERY SINGLE PARTICLES POSITION AND CONDITION AND STATE are know...and it also must take into account SR and GR as far as Particle Position specific to Linear Time.

 

But if all this is known...it is like unlocking the box that has the key to unlock the knowledge that is too complex to imagine...but it is still a reality.

 

Split Infinity

[cladking]

Nevertheless...what I state is true. The only way it will work is if EVERY SINGLE PARTICLES POSITION AND CONDITION AND STATE are know...and it also must take into account SR and GR as far as Particle Position specific to Linear Time.

 

But if all this is known...it is like unlocking the box that has the key to unlock the knowledge that is too complex to imagine...but it is still a reality.

 

You're certainly in excellent company. Many scientists have thought and many still think the world is deterministic. A mechanical universe was the prevailing view in the 19th century. I don't believe there is a shred of evidence to support this view and it is nothing but interpretation and extrapolation from countless experiments. Even one experiment that denies a theory is sufficient though. There seems ample logic to dismiss the idea.

 

Even before I began work on redeveloping ancient science I had given up the idea that anything can be predicted. We can engineer events or we can "predict the past" and apply it to the future but the future will always be determined by events that happen in the future and these events are largely the result of chance.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

You're certainly in excellent company. Many scientists have thought and many still think the world is deterministic. A mechanical universe was the prevailing view in the 19th century. I don't believe there is a shred of evidence to support this view and it is nothing but interpretation and extrapolation from countless experiments. Even one experiment that denies a theory is sufficient though. There seems ample logic to dismiss the idea.

 

Even before I began work on redeveloping ancient science I had given up the idea that anything can be predicted. We can engineer events or we can "predict the past" and apply it to the future but the future will always be determined by events that happen in the future and these events are largely the result of chance.

 

Go and have a look the pair of you on Maths v Hypothesis link http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/72725-is-mathematics-alone-a-safe-medium-for-exploring-the-frontiers-of-science-or-should-observation-and-hypothesis-lead-in-front/page-6

 

mike

[cladking]

Go and have a look the pair of you on Maths v Hypothesis link http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/72725-is-mathematics-alone-a-safe-medium-for-exploring-the-frontiers-of-science-or-should-observation-and-hypothesis-lead-in-front/page-6

 

mike

 

Go and have a look the pair of you on Maths v Hypothesis link http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/72725-is-mathematics-alone-a-safe-medium-for-exploring-the-frontiers-of-science-or-should-observation-and-hypothesis-lead-in-front/page-6

 

Ironically I was too busy posting to get your note in a timely fashion.

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/72725-is-mathematics-alone-a-safe-medium-for-exploring-the-frontiers-of-science-or-should-observation-and-hypothesis-lead-in-front/page-6

 

I was half expecting a little "friendly fire" when I opened this thread.

[SplitInfinity]

You're certainly in excellent company. Many scientists have thought and many still think the world is deterministic. A mechanical universe was the prevailing view in the 19th century. I don't believe there is a shred of evidence to support this view and it is nothing but interpretation and extrapolation from countless experiments. Even one experiment that denies a theory is sufficient though. There seems ample logic to dismiss the idea.

 

Even before I began work on redeveloping ancient science I had given up the idea that anything can be predicted. We can engineer events or we can "predict the past" and apply it to the future but the future will always be determined by events that happen in the future and these events are largely the result of chance.

 

You are confusing what I am stating as being a Predictable Deterministic Future. What I am saying as far as knowing the condition and position and state of every Particle in the Universe will allow us to know every possible action and interaction and particle position till the end of our Universal Time....is specific and a ONE OF MANY DIVERGENT UNIVERSAL REALITY TIMELINES that exist in INFINITE NUMBER AND VARIETY....as every possible state or version of reality MUST EXIST and because of this and because in such a Multiversal State specific to One Universal Grouping CONTAINING INFINITE DIVERGENT UNIVERSAL REALITIES all interconnective and all Divergent off a single BASELINE REALITY...will all exist as a whole in a NON-LINEAR TIMELINE.

 

Given this just as to a much smaller degree....when we look at FRACTAL PATTERNS IN CHAOS THEORY....this gives us insight to a much larger system known as the MANY WORLDS INTERPRETATION. And this might help some here who are not familiar with this concept and theory which allows us an explanation to such things we ALL WANT TO KNOW SUCH AS....Why Quantum Particle/Wave Forms exist as both Particle and Wave? Why are such Quanta such as Photons and Electrons capable of Dual or Multiple Functions? How and why do Photons and Electron and other Quantum Particle/Wave Forms have FREQUENCY? And EVERYONE'S SCI-FI FANTASY QUESTION....HOW are Particles of Mass....Protons and Neutrons....INTERCHANGE with Particle/Wave Forms of ENERGY? Coming up from WIKI.........Many Worlds Interpretation.

 

The Many-Worlds Interpretation is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction and denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse. Many-worlds implies that all possible alternative histories and futures are real, each representing an actual "world" (or "universe"). It is also referred to as MWI, the relative state formulation, the Everett interpretation, the theory of the universal wavefunction, many-universes interpretation, or just many-worlds. MWI is one of many multiverse hypotheses in physics and philosophy. It is currently considered a mainstream interpretation along with the other decoherence interpretations, the Copenhagen interpretation,^[10]and deterministic interpretations such as the Bohmian mechanicsBefore many-worlds, reality had always been viewed as a single unfolding history. Many-worlds, however, views reality as a many-branched tree, wherein every possible quantum outcome is realised.^[11] Many-worlds claims to reconcile the observation of non-deterministic events, such as the random radioactive decay, with the fully deterministic equations of quantum physics.

In many-worlds, the subjective appearance of wavefunction collapse is explained by the mechanism of quantum decoherence, which resolves all of the correlation paradoxes of quantum theory, such as the EPR paradox^[12][13] and Schrödinger's cat,^[1] since every possible outcome of every event defines or exists in its own "history" or "world".

In lay terms, the hypothesis states there is a very large—perhaps infinite^[14]—number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes.

 

This is but ONE MULTIVERSAL BASED THEORY where time exists in an interconnective state to all Divergent Universal Realities but such Time is of a NON-LINEAR NATURE as to accessibility within and between all such Non-Linear Based Divergent Universal States...an example might be the ability of some people...SENSITIVES...a name expressing the nature of both the person as well as such a persons abilities....being able to connect to a variety of Universal Linear Timelines via Telepathic or Spiritual awareness.

 

This and a great deal more Multiversal Theories as well as M or Brane Theory....would certainly provide the answers for Dark Matter and Dark Energy as well as allow us to understand Particle/Wave Duality and much more.

 

Although such Theories are extremely complex as well as their reality being of a nature that anything that exists does so to provide a purpose.

 

Split Infinity