They could climb?

[TransformerRobot]

Could velociraptors climb trees?

 

I know that Jurassic Park depicts their claws as tools for killing people (not that the movie's been all that accurate), but maybe they could also be used for climbing to treetops. After all, if this is one of the dinosaurs that gave way to modern birds, velociraptor would need a good place to rest, assuming it could fly at all.

[gatechgirl]

Well, the clues we really have about their behavior can probably mostly be gathered from their fossil remains, specifically skeletal fossils. Short arms, (relatively) large "hands" with three long claws, a funky second digit on their "feet", longish tail (relative to its body)... seemed about 30ish lbs.....

Arboreal locomotion in extant animals is adapted to in a bunch of different ways. Suction or some other form of adhesion (like in frogs or something)... long arms (think monkeys)... small size (chipmunks, birds, snakes.. don't wanna break the branches I assume)... being able to grip or grasp with a hand (monkeys) or claw thing (like birds gripping a branch) or maybe a prehensile tail... maybe there's other examples of adaptions for arboreal locomotion that I can't think of right now.

I feel like their funky claws and short arms were probably more for slashing at things, hunting, killing, all that stuff like maybe how Jurassic Park depicts it. But just because a feature doesn't seem specifically adapted to a certain function doesn't necessarily mean the animal is (well, was) completely incapable of said function, so perhaps it could still climb. After all, humans don't seem particularly well adapted for getting around in the water, but that doesn't stop Michael Phelps (now I'm imagining velociraptors competing in fanciful Olympic events like tree climbing... )

Maybe it had the bird-gripping-a-branch thing going for it, the whole modern bird thing you pointed out could mildly support that hypothesis. Perhaps its tail was flexible, prehensile-like (yet kinda doubtful).

 

I just finished a really interesting terrestrial vertebrate class where we talked about things like this. Adaptions conferring to functions, being able to tell something about an animal based on what it looks well adapted for. Pretty interesting. But honestly, I'm just a lowly undergrad. These are simply my musings, definitely not fact.

[overtone]

 

After all, humans don't seem particularly well adapted for getting
around in the water, but that doesn't stop Michael Phelps (now I'm
imagining velociraptors competing in fanciful Olympic events like tree
climbing... )

If we look at tree kangaroos and similar examples of comparison, we can get an idea of the kinds of modifications that abet tree climbing in terrestrial bipeds - we don't see them in velociraptors, particularly ( that one terrestrial bipedal dinosaur with nearly opposable thumbs intrigues). There's a speculation that the juveniles of them and several other too-large terrestrial dinosaurs might have climbed trees, a safety feature of many terrestrial animals now.

 

Trees were different then.

 

btw: Humans are quite well adapted for getting around in shallow water and shoreline environments, with a variety of suitable modifications abetting breath control, diving and swimming, wading, grasp of underwater objects, suitable behaviors and preferences, etc. But that's another thread.

[techhydra]

It is said that raptors evolved into the first bird called Archaeopteryx. I think it is most likely that this species had to be able to climb initially in order to take flight. I'm not sure at which stage in their evolution this feat became possible however.

[TransformerRobot]

Velociraptor must've been even cooler than we thought.

[Moontanman]

Velociraptors were nothing like the animals in Jurassic park, kinda sad since the real deal was much more cool, like a deadly chicken!

 

 

I see no reason to assume this creature couldn't climb but microraptor almost certainly could climb.

 

[TransformerRobot]

Then what else were the feathers for? To keep it warm in colder regions? Or maybe to let it jump higher somehow?

[Moontanman]

Then what else were the feathers for? To keep it warm in colder regions? Or maybe to let it jump higher somehow?

 

Feathers almost certainly evolved for warmth before they evolved for flight...

[TransformerRobot]

Did Troodon also have feathers? Or was it not in the same gene pool as Velociraptor?

[Moontanman]

Did Troodon also have feathers? Or was it not in the same gene pool as Velociraptor?

 

 

It's thought that all dinosaurs, theropods in particular, could have had feathers at some stage of their development, even hatchling T-Rex could have had down type feathers. Sauropods shared many features of birds as well like hollow bones and advanced breathing apparatus no evidence of feathers but down type feathers on hatchlings is not impossible...

 

http://www.walkingwithdinosaurs.com/news/editorial/diplodocus-sauropods-with-feathers/1/

 

[TransformerRobot]

Then were Velociraptors warm-blooded or cold-blooded?

 

I've heard about the theory that dinosaurs were more warm-blooded like modern mammals, but I don't know if it's right or not.

[Moontanman]

Then were Velociraptors warm-blooded or cold-blooded?

 

I've heard about the theory that dinosaurs were more warm-blooded like modern mammals, but I don't know if it's right or not.

 

Most modern sources think dinosaurs were endotherms, at least to some extent, not all mammals are exactly hot blooded, sloths don't maintain high body temps and elephants have somewhat less than high body temps as well, in fact the tiny relatives of elephants called hyraxes. like elephants have imperfect endothermy. Some dinosaurs could have been endotherms just because they were so big but others apparently were active enough to have had to been endotherms. It's possible that dinosaurs had a wide range of endothermy we don't generally see in mammals. Some modern reptiles are endotherms as well as some fishes so endothermy is not a cut and dried yes or no thing...

Edited May 16, 2013 by Moontanman

[TransformerRobot]

What about the Velociraptor's environment? Would it have an effect on it being endothermic or exothermic?

[Moontanman]

What about the Velociraptor's environment? Would it have an effect on it being endothermic or exothermic?

 

 

No more than the environment affects the endothermy of a mammal or a bird, the idea behind being an endotherm is maintaining a constant body temp despite the temperature of the environment. Some dinosaurs lived at the polar regions, the long polar winters had to be cold.

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/polar-dinosaurs-200712.html

[overtone]

Insulation is normally an indication of endothermy - even in insects you only see insulating type hair when they need to keep heat in to fly or something like that.

 

As far as climbing trees or similar things, although velociraptors don't look to me as though they are specifically adapted that wouldn't mean they didn't ever climb - I've seen foxes in trees, and woodchucks.

 

And climbing is not restricted to trees: there are at least two quite different hypotheses for the origin of flight, and one of them involves traction for climbing cliffs and steep slopes. Intriguing features of the the steep slope notion include that it involves "arm" flapping in juveniles using down feathers and lends itself to cliff nesting - both features of natural Darwinian paths to flight starting with a bipedal ground dwelling animal.

Edited May 16, 2013 by overtone

[TransformerRobot]

What if Velociraptor had fur instead of feathers? Do feathers have better or weaker insulation properties?

[Moontanman]

What if Velociraptor had fur instead of feathers? Do feathers have better or weaker insulation properties?

 

Feathers are considered to be superior to fur, feathers allow animals as small as birds to retain body heat even exposed to very cold air, most small mammals require some protection from extreme cold, dens or other cover, birds do things like swim around on very cold lakes or fly in sub zero air and it's why we have down insulated clothing that is superior to fur but fur can be modified to increase it's insulation, hollow hairs for instance...

[TransformerRobot]

So, correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, if Velociraptor were alive today, unchanged from this build, it would keep it's feathers merely for warmth?

 

Is there a chance it could fly or at least glide?

[Moontanman]

So, correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, if Velociraptor were alive today, unchanged from this build, it would keep it's feathers merely for warmth?

 

Is there a chance it could fly or at least glide?

 

 

Warmth would be an important function but I've read of running stabilization as an additional function as well as helping to catching flying insects, I would guess sexual display was also an important aspect of the feathers as well. They can be an important part of the sexual display in modern birds.

[TransformerRobot]

Well is there a chance they could retain their feathers if they evolved into a more humanoid shape?

 

Or would they loose their feathers and go for a more lizard-like appearance?

[Moontanman]

Well is there a chance they could retain their feathers if they evolved into a more humanoid shape?

Rebecca as Corono.jpg

 

Or would they loose their feathers and go for a more lizard-like appearance?

 

 

If they had feathers and they lost most of them I would expect to see feathered crests and such as a sexual display.

[arc]

 

Feathers almost certainly evolved for warmth before they evolved for flight...

 

I have my own hypothesis on this. I imagine these small agile bipeds primarily feeding on flying insects, running after them and snatching them out of the air as they fly by or take to the air to escape. This chasing and jumping behavior would give advantage to the fastest and highest leaping, leading to the physiology of extremely fast bipeds that catch prey on the fly.

 

The arms and tail would show in following generations the slow adaptation to the gradually extending glide times. Spreading the forearms apart increases balance and control in the air. This also introduces the arm and tail surfaces to the advantages of increased lift by having longer scales at these extended appendage's trailing edge's. The natural urge to "swim" up by flapping the arms to move just a little higher to grab the prey should drive towards lightness of bones, increased cardiovascular development and the gradual change of reptilian scales into feathers.

 

This scenario may also have drove the decrease in large insects, being large as these predators took to the air would have its disadvantages and give the smaller prey higher chances to survive and reproduce. And this in turn would produce smaller flying predators to match.

 

The current theories of tree or cliff climbing seem rather cumbersome, relying on the proper geography or flora at the right time and place rather than the plenitude of airborne prey to drive adaptation for a already running and leaping predator.

 

"If they had feathers and they lost most of them I would expect to see feathered crests and such as a sexual display."

 

 

"Hey baby, you come here often"

 

Why do I hear 50's doo wap music?

Edited September 3, 2013 by arc

[Ringer]

I have my own hypothesis on this. I imagine these small agile bipeds primarily feeding on flying insects, running after them and snatching them out of the air as they fly by or take to the air to escape. This chasing and jumping behavior would give advantage to the fastest and highest leaping, leading to the physiology of extremely fast bipeds that catch prey on the fly.

 

The arms and tail would show in following generations the slow adaptation to the gradually extending glide times. Spreading the forearms apart increases balance and control in the air. This also introduces the arm and tail surfaces to the advantages of increased lift by having longer scales at these extended appendage's trailing edge's. The natural urge to "swim" up by flapping the arms to move just a little higher to grab the prey should drive towards lightness of bones, increased cardiovascular development and the gradual change of reptilian scales into feathers.

 

This scenario may also have drove the decrease in large insects, being large as these predators took to the air would have its disadvantages and give the smaller prey higher chances to survive and reproduce. And this in turn would produce smaller flying predators to match.

Except we see fiberous type feathers not suited for flight further back in the evolutionary lineage. So it's doubtful that these types of feathers helped much in terms of air time.

 

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/feather_evolution.htm

[TransformerRobot]

Except we see fiberous type feathers not suited for flight further back in the evolutionary lineage. So it's doubtful that these types of feathers helped much in terms of air time.

 

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/feather_evolution.htm

 

Just like how even flightless birds have feathers, right? I've seen emu up close and their feathers are almost furry looking, and not so much for flight.

[Ringer]

Just like how even flightless birds have feathers, right? I've seen emu up close and their feathers are almost furry looking, and not so much for flight.

IIRC flightless birds tend to have feathers that would be able to fly for at least part of their life, but they tend to lack the keeled sternum and other attributes of flying birds. Primitive feathers were a single hair-like filament then branched out into the leaf looking structure, as well as other feather types, of modern aves.