the mercury plasma ion propulsion engine

[robomont]

i decided to "speculate about an engine design i believe is functional and possibly being used on craft.

the design is the medical caduceus coil.the indian vedas called it the mercury motor.i have no proof of them both being the same thing but when you add in the rumors of the military tr3b having a mercuryvplasma engine it starts to make sense.

the idea is to have a iron tubing apparatus with liquid mercury inside.

a hot plate is mounted on bottom.the mercury is boiled until it is plasma.the plasma goes to the top ball and ionizes the air.some of the plasma pours over into the coil winding and creates a magnetic solenoid.the solenoid then pulls the ionized air down and under the craft.this provides thrust.it also creates a plasma around the craft.this plasma also creates a kind of shield around the craft protecting it from debree.as long as there are atoms around the craft that can be ionized then there is propulsion.the voltage determines the speed and current is set to match weight of craft.but in my design its self regulated.only more heat is applied to boiler.to increase lift or speed.in an electronic version of this engine the speed could be increased up to the limit of ionization and magnetic field strength.

 

the energy to move the craft should be about the same anywhere but gravity would effect it some and viscosity of substance it was in.

therevis video of a tr3b having a glowing orb surrounding it.then later the orb expands to encompass the entire ship.

this would be the plasma i talk of.this same glowing orb phenomena has been seen through time and is even shown in paintings of ancient.the plasma orb tends to be multi colored like what happens to air when it is ionized with each element creating a color because of its electron shells.like neon does.so by deduction.these craft could be thousands of years old.just as the indian vedas have been dated at over four thousand years old.which means the mercury engine design has been around a long time.it may even be possible to cycle the plasma at a frequency that makes the craft invisible to the human eye.it also may be possible to use it create a cloud around the craft.the bible talks of the jews following a cloud by day and fire by night.the hible is also thousands of years old.

what do yall think of my speculation?could this be space propulsion?do you think the usa gov has this tech.does this mean we regularly travel in space?what would be the top speed of this engine in outer space?

[robomont]

sound of crickets chirping ?on a science forum?

[swansont]

No science.

[robomont]

swanson .are you saying this theory will not work?

what defines science? you?

not trying to be rude but.

just looking for some feedback on how to improve the design.

if you helped me i would put your name in my list of folks that helped.

[swansont]

swanson .are you saying this theory will not work?

what defines science? you?

not trying to be rude but.

just looking for some feedback on how to improve the design.

if you helped me i would put your name in my list of folks that helped.

 

I'm saying you don't have a theory. You don't have a design. You have a collection of statements that do not follow from each other; they are asserted with no justification whatsoever. That you cite the Vedas and rumors of a military project detract from what little credibility you create.

 

I don't define science. But my science training means I can often recognize BS when I see it, and I see it here.

[robomont]

the start of the thread is the theory.the quotes from history are the hints at facts.and finally this is the speculative area that i was corralled to by the mods.

my guess.im onto something since the mods are being so aggressive at shooting down speculation without showing whats wrong with the theory.

on conspiracy sites we call them disinfo agents and government shills.getting paid minumum wage to cover up facts.

[EdEarl]

Forgive me for being critical, but your post is difficult to read, which makes you appear poorly informed.

 

NASA builds and uses ion engines. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_engine

 

That article says, "Older designs used mercury, but this is toxic and expensive, tended to contaminate the vehicle with the metal and was difficult to feed accurately."

 

The Wikipedia article gives links and references to many more sources of information. An ion engine has a weak thrust that is ineffective on Earth or within the atmosphere because gravity is very strong by comparison. Maybe ion engines are used on military space vehicles and maybe not. The technology has been widely discussed in unclassified documents, one as old as 1906. Any country that is interested can develop the technology for use in space. Military conspiracy is unlikely, since its best use is for interplanetary travel. It is not powerful enough for interstellar travel.

 

You can avoid criticism by writing more clearly and doing research before post. Some of the people who post here have spent more than 10,000 hours studying to become an expert and earn a PhD. Until you can match that effort and achievement, you will find it difficult to gain respect from those who have.

 

I wish you good luck and happy learning.

[swansont]

the start of the thread is the theory.the quotes from history are the hints at facts.and finally this is the speculative area that i was corralled to by the mods.

my guess.im onto something since the mods are being so aggressive at shooting down speculation without showing whats wrong with the theory.

on conspiracy sites we call them disinfo agents and government shills.getting paid minumum wage to cover up facts.

 

The Galileo gambit does not gain you credibility, and appeal to conspiracy negates it completely. There are no facts to cover up. I am not a minimum-wage government shill.

 

Your "theory" is that if you get mercury hot magic will happen. Or at least that's how it reads. You basically have an unwritten Sidney-Harris-like "Then a miracle occurs" between most of your steps.

 

"the mercury is boiled until it is plasma" How hot is that? The first ionization potential of Mercury is 10 eV. Ballpark (kT) value of temperature is 110,000K. I think that's a little above the melting point of your iron tubing.

 

"some of the plasma pours over into the coil winding and creates a magnetic solenoid" What coil? How does a plasma create a "magnetic solenoid"?

 

"this provides thrust" How does it do that? What interaction is taking place?

[robomont]

i too have over 10.000hours of research.just not lucky enough to go to college and get more accurate info.i have a library of close to a hundred books.now i collect rare ones on occasion.i now spend half my time on conspiracy sights and half doing research.about 16 hours a day .every day.

 

the caduceus has a spiral coil.the oldest pics of caduceus have a tornado shaped coil with about ten windings total split between the use of two tubes.these tubes are both wound in the same direction.the plasma flowing in these tubes makes the steal tubing magnetic.causing a large magnetic solenoid.this tornado solenoid then pulls the ions outward and down.also giving the ionized air a slight spin creating a vortex underneath the craft and causing lift.

im building a prototype in august.ive got angel investers.what im doing now is refining the theory to improve performance.thats why i wanted a nerd to do the math for me.rather than just slapping something together.the construction will go forward regardless.the date has been set.im just offering a spot in the glory.no takers .no problem.the build will go on.

if i havent defined the parameters enough then ask me anything.right now it will be three ft. tall .the amount of mercury will be 1/2lb.the internal space will be approximatly 15cubic ft.the coil will be hydraulic half inch steel tubing.a vacuum will be pulled and 1kw from an electric hotplate will be applied..the main collumn will be exaust tubing and the boiler on bottom and ball on top will be freon tanks .pollished and welded to column.the coil windings will tap in the column at te halfway point and the other end at the boiler.i hope this info helps.any of these statements can be modified to be more practical if the math to proves it.time is ticking.and august isnt far away.

 

mercury becomes plasma at 700°F+- not 110,000k?

[EdEarl]

I have read that many people nowadays have spent 10,000 hours becoming expert gamers. However, that does not prepare them for either an art, humanities, science or other career as an expert. One must study relevant subjects and attain a PhD to be a recognized expert. Even so, one must continue to work hard to earn continued respect.

[John Cuthber]

i too have over 10.000hours of research.just not lucky enough to go to college and get more accurate info.i have a library of close to a hundred books.now i collect rare ones on occasion.i now spend half my time on conspiracy sights and half doing research.about 16 hours a day .every day.

 

the caduceus has a spiral coil.the oldest pics of caduceus have a tornado shaped coil with about ten windings total split between the use of two tubes.these tubes are both wound in the same direction.the plasma flowing in these tubes makes the steal tubing magnetic.causing a large magnetic solenoid.this tornado solenoid then pulls the ions outward and down.also giving the ionized air a slight spin creating a vortex underneath the craft and causing lift.

im building a prototype in august.ive got angel investers.what im doing now is refining the theory to improve performance.thats why i wanted a nerd to do the math for me.rather than just slapping something together.the construction will go forward regardless.the date has been set.im just offering a spot in the glory.no takers .no problem.the build will go on.

if i havent defined the parameters enough then ask me anything.right now it will be three ft. tall .the amount of mercury will be 1/2lb.the internal space will be approximatly 15cubic ft.the coil will be hydraulic half inch steel tubing.a vacuum will be pulled and 1kw from an electric hotplate will be applied..the main collumn will be exaust tubing and the boiler on bottom and ball on top will be freon tanks .pollished and welded to column.the coil windings will tap in the column at te halfway point and the other end at the boiler.i hope this info helps.any of these statements can be modified to be more practical if the math to proves it.time is ticking.and august isnt far away.

 

mercury becomes plasma at 700°F+- not 110,000k?

Firstly, I saddened to hear that you spend time looking at conspiracy sites. You have been wasting your time.

Secondly, having been told (with an explanation) that Hg vapour doesn't get converted to a plasma unless you heat it to about 110000K why post "mercury becomes plasma at 700°F+- not 110,000k?"?

 

Thirdly, Swansont already asked you what you needed to explain, but rather than answering the questions you say pointless things like "three ft. tall .the amount of mercury will be 1/2lb.the internal space will be approximatly 15cubic ft."

and so on.

 

So, once again, here are the important questions

What coil? How does a plasma create a "magnetic solenoid"

"this provides thrust" How does it do that? What interaction is taking place?

 

Incidentally, if you really plan to boil half a pound of mercury, be sure to put up some hazmat warnings for they people who come to recover your body.

 

And, re. "the oldest pics of caduceus have a tornado shaped coil with about ten windings total split between the use of two tubes."

No, they do not.

That's just silly.

They have two snakes.

[swansont]

 

mercury becomes plasma at 700°F+- not 110,000k?

 

The boiling point of mercury is just under 700 ºF. Is that what you mean? You will make a mercury vapor? That's not a plasma.

[robomont]

you are correct.my bad.do you know how to convert plasma temp into °F.?

what temp would mercury turn to plasma.i cant find a straight up answer.i know pressure would count in the equation.but im starting from the point of a vacuum.i realize mercury vapor lamps start with an arc and also they are in glass.but it is plasma and ionizes and is not really that hot.maybe a thousand°F at most for light fixtures or they would melt.

[John Cuthber]

The plasma in a light bulb is created electrically.

To make the same plasma by just heating the mercury would take something like 110,000 K. That's near enough to 200,000 F.

Yes, I do mean a fifth of a million degrees Fahrenheit.

So, you are not going to get a mercury plasma by heating it (and , actually, the pressure doesn't have much effect)

 

Now, can you please answer the questions.

 

What coil? How does a plasma create a "magnetic solenoid"
"this provides thrust" How does it do that? What interaction is taking place?

[ACG52]

This: http://www.engr.colostate.edu/ionstand/graduates/papers/Longhurst%20Dissertation.pdf is a dissertation prepared for NASA in 1978 on Mercury Ion thrusters.

 

In Appendix B, on page 108, it gives the averaged temperature of mercury plasma as 7.5 ev. 1 ev is equal to 11,604 K,

 

So the average temperature of mercury plasma is 83,548.8 K

 

Converting to Fahrenheit, it's an average of 150,000 F.

Edited June 3, 2013 by ACG52

[John Cuthber]

OK, a sixth of a million F.

Still not happening in a steel tube.

 

BTW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_precision

[ACG52]

Or any other material containment.

 

Just using the figures supplied.

[swansont]

This: http://www.engr.colostate.edu/ionstand/graduates/papers/Longhurst%20Dissertation.pdf is a dissertation prepared for NASA in 1978 on Mercury Ion thrusters.

 

In Appendix B, on page 108, it gives the averaged temperature of mercury plasma as 7.5 ev. 1 ev is equal to 11,604 K,

 

So the average temperature of mercury plasma is 83,548.8 K

 

Converting to Fahrenheit, it's an average of 150,000 F.

 

Good to have a cite on this, thanks. I gave a temperature using kT for the energy to get a ballpark number (within an order of magnitude or better) as a plausibility argument. In reality there will be a thermal distribution of energies, so it can be cooler and still able to cause some ionization.

[robomont]

then what keeps a mercury vapor lamp from melting?

[swansont]

then what keeps a mercury vapor lamp from melting?

 

It's not in thermal equilibrium. The plasma is not induced by heating it, it's from electric discharge.

[John Cuthber]

Also, not much of it is actually a plasma.

[robomont]

energy=energy=energy.

[John Cuthber]

energy=energy=energy.

So?

[robomont]

the energy from a mercury vapor is in many frequencies.not just infrared.alot of it is ultraviolet.which tends to ionize.so it is possible to not melt a container.

thats what bothers me.you guys know the answer but dont spill it.any first year physics student knows that.yet you guys can crunch big numbers.somethings fishy.

Edited June 8, 2013 by robomont

[John Cuthber]

So, once again, here are the important questions
What coil? How does a plasma create a "magnetic solenoid"
"this provides thrust" How does it do that? What interaction is taking place?

 

The issues with the temperature of the plasma reflect the fact that "temperature" isn't as well defined as people usually think.

 

Stop worrying about that, and answer the questions. If you can't answer them it may be because the ideas behind those questions are wrong and the system simply won't work.