How far should the US take separation of Church and State?

[Hellbender]

I ikinow enough, let me say that. SInce I learned about him in history class, and also read many of this alcoholic's quotes, I think I do know who he is.

 

let me correct this:

 

I know have read enough of his alcohol driven, bigoted quoted to get a pretty good idea where he was coming from. Are you saying he was a good man? Besides, what does this have to do with your argument?

[john5746]

Thank you. i was getting tired of repeating the same thing to this person over and over again in response to his one-sided argument.

 

I am glad because he acted like a jerk. Do you expect people to argue both sides? Sometimes I do this, but it isn't the usual case.

 

Coral: I hope your daughter and you are doing well, and your Ex received justice.

 

How do you feel about Christmas, Halloween or Valentine parties. If a child doesn't participate, is this fair?

 

Concerning the teacher, that person needs therapy.

[Coral Rhedd]

Coral: I hope your daughter and you are doing well' date=' and your Ex received justice.

 

How do you feel about Christmas, Halloween or Valentine parties. If a child doesn't participate, is this fair?

 

Concerning the teacher, that person needs therapy.[/quote']

 

John, my daughter has done better than I have in many ways. Of course, I always have a fear that the other shoe will drop. I have known people who have dealt with terrible flashbacks.

 

My ex never received justice. There was a grand jury hearing. His (married) girlfriend was county clerk. She rigged the wheel and all his friends sat on the grand jury. Since my daughter testified at age five the chances were slim anyway. He was no billed even though two child psychologists found her accounts credible.

 

In truth, I am not much of an agnostic or atheist. Just sort of indifferent to trying to decide where my head is at on such issues. I just think everyone's rights and beliefs should be respected and that public school is not the place for anything that smacks of indoctrination.

 

To me Christmas, Halloween, and Valentines are secular holidays.

 

I live now in a largely Hispanic Catholic community and I had a lit teacher in college who was Jewish. Her son attended a local public school. At my teacher's son's school they held a very religious Christmas pageant. She and her husband sued when her son was ridiculed for nonparticipation. They won but were essentially driven from the community afterward.

 

She landed a much better job. She is well-published in academic journals and is a fabulous teacher. I really missed her when she left because she was a sort of mentor for me and really taught me how to understand the Brontes.

 

However, for me her leaving may have been a good thing. If she had stayed I probably would have gotten my M.A. with an emphasis in lit and then I would have needed a Ph.D. to get a job. The horror of it!

 

As it is my M.A. has an emphasis in Creative Writing. Syntax is right about one thing: My choices sometimes s**k.

[Hellbender]

I am glad because he acted like a jerk. Do you expect people to argue both sides? Sometimes I do this, but it isn't the usual case.

 

He was being a total jerk. What I mean by one-sided is that he never considered any viewpoint or idea but his own, instead telling us that out points were essentially baloney.

[Aardvark]

As it is my M.A. has an emphasis in Creative Writing. Syntax is right about one thing: My choices sometimes s**k.

 

Don't take any notice of Syntax, he's just acting like a dumb troll. I'm so sorry to hear about that teacher, why do some people act like that? Petty tyrants everywhere.

 

An MA in Creative writing? Are you writing anything, what sort of stories do you favour?

[Coral Rhedd]

Don't take any notice of Syntax' date=' he's just acting like a dumb troll. I'm so sorry to hear about that teacher, why do some people act like that? Petty tyrants everywhere.

 

An MA in Creative writing? Are you writing anything, what sort of stories do you favour?[/quote']

 

"Are you writing anything?" A writer's dreaded question. It always evokes guilt and the anwer is always, "Not enough."

 

I don't write fiction or poetry for a living. I would starve. When I do write, with foolish hopes at the back of my head, I write literary fiction. I like to think is rather dark with humorous touches. I try to avoid sentimentality at all costs but sometimes it sneaks in. Rarely published.

 

To keep food on the table, I sometimes write resumes and business plans. I would like to expand to doing grant writing.

 

I sort of had Syntax's number early on. It think he helped prove my point.

 

Thanks for the kind thoughts

[john5746]

In truth' date=' I am not much of an agnostic or atheist. Just sort of indifferent to trying to decide where my head is at on such issues. I just think everyone's rights and beliefs should be respected and that public school is not the place for anything that smacks of indoctrination.[/quote']

 

I bounce between agnostic and atheist. I am inclined to agree with you on the pledge as far as school is concerned(getting rid of the GOD part).

 

To me Christmas, Halloween, and Valentines are secular holidays.

 

I agree, but in the bible belt, Halloween stirs up some problems.

 

I live now in a largely Hispanic Catholic community and I had a lit teacher in college who was Jewish. Her son attended a local public school. At my teacher's son's school they held a very religious Christmas pageant. She and her husband sued when her son was ridiculed for nonparticipation. They won but were essentially driven from the community afterward.

 

That does stink. I probably would have told my child to participate and explain that it is a different culture' date=' etc. I would expect christians to do the reverse, but they have the right not to participate without stress. Now, the next time someone complains, they may have to eliminate it altogether.

 

As it is my M.A. has an emphasis in Creative Writing. Syntax is right about one thing: My choices sometimes s**k.

 

I know people with all kinds of degrees. There are no guarantees. I think if you pick something you enjoy and are half good at, it will pay off. If not financially, you will at least enjoy doing it.

[syntax252]

Syntax is right about one thing: My choices sometimes s**k.

 

When did I say that your choices "suck?"

 

And again' date=' you mentioned earlier that I wanted to hurt you? What makes you think that I wanted to hurt you?

 

All I am saying is that you do not have a right to deny someone else the right to acknowledge God, just because you [b']think[/b] that that would constitue some sort of child abuse.

[Coral Rhedd]

Syntax, please see my post #148 in answer to your last question. As to your other questions, I suggest you review what I actually wrote -- in context.

[syntax252]

Syntax, please see my post #148 in answer to your last question. As to your other questions, I suggest you review what I actually wrote -- in context[/b'].

 

OK, here is your post #148.

 

I sadi:

 

No one is trying to deny atheists their rights. It is the other way around. It is the atheist that is telling the religious person that they must not exercise thair constitutional right to express their beliefe in God.

 

 

And you replied:

 

You belief depends upon your ability to recite the pledge?

 

So again I ask you--what makes you think that I wanted to hurt you?

[Coral Rhedd]

Does you belief depend upon your ability to recite the pledge? Yes or no.

 

I never said you wanted to hurt me. I said you were not capable of hurting me. To expand, any opinion you may have about me personally or even opinions you may have about choices I made in my life do not especially interest me. Therefore, how could you possibly hurt me?

 

This meant that if you were attempting to do so, you were wasting your time.

[syntax252]

Does you belief depend upon your ability to recite the pledge? Yes or no.

 

I never said you wanted to hurt me. I said you were not capable of hurting me. To expand' date=' any opinion you may have about me personally or even opinions you may have about choices I made in my life do not especially interest me. Therefore, how could you possibly hurt me?

 

This meant that if you [b']were[/b] attempting to do so, you were wasting your time.

 

No, my belief does not depend on anything.

 

Is the belief of an atheist dependent upon not hearing someone else say the word "God?"

 

It would seem reasonable that you at least thought that I was trying to hurt you, or you would not have brought it up.

 

As to choices you have made in your life, I still don't see where you are comming from on that one.

 

Anyway, back to the pledge. If the words "under God" were taken out of the pledge, as you seem to desire, and then during the pledge, some of the students said "under God" anyway, do you think they should be diciplined or corrected for that?

[Coral Rhedd]

No. But if you will look back at previous posts, you will glean that I don't think there should be a pledge at all. I don't believe school and the activities of should be for anything but educational purposes.

 

As a former substitute teacher, I saw an enormous amount of time wasted on non-educational activities. I also don't think that they should have that dreadful television station pipe in that mandatory news with its mandatory advertising of skateboards and sugary treats.

 

Perhaps you haven't actually visited a public school lately and seen the chaos that often reigns.

 

Oh yes, and they should take out the vending machine full of caffienated sodas and candy. They should stop selling cheetos and pizzas in the hallways.

 

As you can see syntax, I am a purist and my postition is consistent: The purpose of school is education, not indoctrination, whether such indoctrination be for the benefit of Pepsi Cola or the United States Government.

 

I will be offering no futher comments in this thread. My participation in it is ended.

[syntax252]

No. But if you will look back at previous posts' date=' you will glean that I don't think there should be a pledge [b']at all[/b]. I don't believe school and the activities of should be for anything but educational purposes.

 

As a former substitute teacher, I saw an enormous amount of time wasted on non-educational activities. I also don't think that they should have that dreadful television station pipe in that mandatory news with its mandatory advertising of skateboards and sugary treats.

 

Perhaps you haven't actually visited a public school lately and seen the chaos that often reigns.

 

Oh yes, and they should take out the vending machine full of caffienated sodas and candy. They should stop selling cheetos and pizzas in the hallways.

 

As you can see syntax, I am a purist and my postition is consistent: The purpose of school is education, not indoctrination, whether such indoctrination be for the benefit of Pepsi Cola or the United States Government.

 

I will be offering no futher comments in this thread. My participation in it is ended.

 

 

And I take it that that is your fall back way of having the last word in a discussion that you are incapable of sustaining?

[john5746]

And I take it that that is your fall back way of having the last word in a discussion that you are incapable of sustaining?

 

No, she made her point and is finished.

 

 

It would seem reasonable that you at least thought that I was trying to hurt you' date=' or you would not have brought it up. [/quote']

 

You made some personal attacks, it was obvious to everyone that you were being a jerk. Others brought it up, not her. You can disagree with someone without making idiotic comments about them, some day you may mature enough to understand this.

 

Anyway' date=' back to the pledge. If the words "under God" were taken out of the pledge, as you seem to desire, and then during the pledge, some of the students said "under God" anyway, do you think they should be diciplined or corrected for that?[/quote']

 

How about "under Whites" or "under Homosexuals" or "under Allah"

 

As I have stated, I see no problem with the pledge either with God in it or not. I can see how someone can be offended. I don't think it is important enough to fight over either way. I don't see how it improves the school, etc.

 

I would much rather my children be taught by someone like Coral without the pledge, praying, moment of silence, school uniforms, etc. than tought by an immature person like yourself.

[Newtonian]

Having spent an age reading the thread,i enter with a metaphorical bowed head.Apart from insenstivity, i found the majority of Syntax252's posts common sense.Also John's,and i fail to see why 'under God' should be so objectionable.Its a voluntary choice you either say it or dont.

Why should it be removed,its quite reasonable to assume that alot of people in america are christian.Hence thats why it there in the first place.

I thought america was a democracy?

If the majority of americas population were athiest,im sure the words would be removed,and their utterence still offensive.

I think it shows intollerence and disrespect for other religions,when the minority asks for a voluntary statement to be removed because it offends them hearing it said.

 

Which reminds me of home(UK).I cannot even fly my national flag,because it may cause offence to the ethnic community.And be considered racist!

You americans should grow up,theres far greater things to worry about in this world.

[swansont]

I thought america was a democracy?

If the majority of americas population were athiest' date='im sure the words would be removed,and their utterence still offensive.

[/quote']

 

A representative democracy, with certain rights guaranteed. As Larry Flynt said, "You can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper." It's more than "majority rules."

 

One of the right we have is the freedom to follow whichever religion we choose (or none at all) without the government foisting it upon us.

[Hellbender]

If the majority of americas population were athiest' date='im sure the words would be removed,and their utterence still offensive.

I think it shows intollerence and disrespect for other religions,when the minority asks for a voluntary statement to be removed because it offends them hearing it said.[/quote']

 

I'm sure if we changed "God" to "Allah", Christians would be the first ones to start whining about religious freedom.

[Hellbender]

and i fail to see why 'under God' should be so objectionable.Its a voluntary choice you either say it or dont.

Why should it be removed' date='its quite reasonable to assume that alot of people in america are christian.[/quote']

 

sure, its voluntary. But why does it have to be there in the first place? Because christians think this is their country? It is voluntary, but state owned schools should not favor one religion over another, and having everyone stand up, every morning and declaring an allegiance to their country under the Jueo-Chrisitian god is a perfect example of that. Before 1954 the word "God" wasn't said in it. America is a secualr country. Because a majority of Americans are christian we should favor that one religion? That not being very secular.

 

 

You americans should grow up,theres far greater things to worry about in this world.

 

So? Does this invalidate any problem? Problems are still problems that should be dealt with no matter what. We can't put everything on hold just becasue we don't live in a perfect world.

[Hellbender]

And I take it that that is your fall back way of having the last word in a discussion that you are incapable of sustaining?

 

no, she just doesn't want to endure the frustration of having to repeat herself to you, over and over again. You don't even consider any points we present. Thats her choice, stop trying to bait ther.

[Hellbender]

Is the belief of an atheist dependent upon not hearing someone else say the word "God?"

 

what the heck is this supposed to mean?

[Newtonian]

sure, its voluntary. But why does it have to be there in the first place? Because christians think this is their country? It is voluntary, but state owned schools should not favor one religion over another, and having everyone stand up, every morning and declaring an allegiance to their country under the Jueo-Chrisitian god

I dont know what the actual religious denominations are percentage wise in america.However after independence if the majority of your country is made up of christians then you cant be surprised the word God will show up (imagine you living in a country of liquorish allsorts worshippers,"Our Bertie who's head tastes like aniseed,hallowed by thy liquorish legs,forgive us for eating them")

Like john has previously said,you cannot move to israel and moan about the star of David everywhere,or your trying to watch baseball and theres loads of people wailing at a wall "shut up will you,im atheist"(i dont imagine you would get a good reception).Your argument is intollerence towards others.Whilst the majority wish to keep it,they certainly do not force the individual to say it.

Instead of moaning how maligned you all are as athiests,get a life.

 

Or buy paint and go graffiti ATHEISM RULES on gov buildings or something

 

 

I

[Newtonian]

Anyway atheism as far as im aware, isnt a movement.Your not part of a club or cult.Its individuals anywhere in the world who dont believe in God.

Its a bit rich thinking your individual opinion counts more than millions,who just happen to be religious.

[atinymonkey]

Which reminds me of home(UK).I cannot even fly my national flag' date='because it may cause offence to the ethnic community.And be considered racist!

[/quote']

 

Horse shit.

 

There were literally millions of flags out thoughout 2004 with the football supporters pinning them to anything accessible. You could not go two yards without seeing a flag.

[Hellbender]

I dont know what the actual religious denominations are percentage wise in america.However after independence if the majority of your country is made up of christians then you cant be surprised the word God will show up (imagine you living in a country of liquorish allsorts worshippers' date='"Our Bertie who's head tastes like aniseed,hallowed by thy liquorish legs,forgive us for eating them[/i']")

Like john has previously said,you cannot move to israel and moan about the star of David everywhere,or your trying to watch baseball and theres loads of people wailing at a wall "shut up will you,im atheist"(i dont imagine you would get a good reception).Your argument is intollerence towards others.Whilst the majority wish to keep it,they certainly do not force the individual to say it.

Instead of moaning how maligned you all are as athiests,get a life.

 

Or buy paint and go graffiti ATHEISM RULES on gov buildings or something

 

 

I

 

hmm since you are obviously bigoted on this, I don't see hopw any argument will get through to you, but here goes. Unlike Israel, America is a secular state, which means there is a seperation of church and state. I don't care if christians worship god, aslong as it is in they don't feel they have to include me in their worship in some way. Schools are places of learning, not places to favor one religion over another. You obviously don't know a whole lot about this country. Just becasue some people are in the majority, doesn't mean we should favor them. That is bigotry. Just becasue whites are the majority in the US, that deosn't mean we shouldn't allow blacks to have right, does it?

Why do you hate atheists so much? Becasue we don't believe in your god? Saying atheists need to "shut up and get a life" is demeaning and insulting and will be reported to a moderator. Maybe you think being a bigot is amusing, but most people don't.