Rare Event Mystery of Exploding Massive Municipal Water Tanks

[ajkoer]

While this rare event of massive sized water tanks rupturing occurs rarely, it is oftened accompanied by some loss of life and large property loss. I have put together some chemical based theories on how some of the evidently pressure detonations could be occurring. Those more familar with these large water tanks may be able to supply more insights (like what metal is employed, ventilation/pressure release valves, is the water stored pre or post aeration and/or chlorination,.etc). If a coherent list of possible causes can be produced, I will forward to OSHA, which apparently review these incidents, for considerations. As to why I am presenting on this forum is a net search reveals little insight and I can understand why a very respected scientist may feel reluctant to be associated with a topic on water tank pressure explosions.

 

First, some history of the events to ascertain some possible patterns. Here is a report of a large explosion from Fox News reported on April 07, 2011 "Two Killed From 300,000 Gallon Water Tank Explosion" (see http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/07/killed-300000-gallon-wa... ). To quote:

"Two men died Thursday when a 300,000 gallon water tank exploded in Florida, unleashing a flood and causing an adjacent building to collapse.
The victims were in the midst of repairing a pump that filled the tank inside an adjacent concrete block building. The force of the water from the explosion caused the building to collapse, MyFoxTampaBay.com reported."

Here is another incident in Tomball, Texas where a worker was killed after a water storage tank exploded (see http://www.khou.com/news/Worker-injured-in-church-water-tank... ) to quote:

"The man was cutting on the top of the tank to provide ventilation," said Lieutenant Chad Shaw with the Harris County Fire Marshal’s Office. "The tank was about three quarters full of water but there was a build-up of combustible vapors above the water. Sparks or a flame caused by the cutting ignited the vapors, causing the explosion."

Here is a report of yet another large water tank explosion in Galax, Virginia (see http://www.thecarrollnews.com/view/full_story/22210488/artic... ), and also in Chester, New York (see http://chroniclenewspaper.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/201... ) where to quote: "Internal pressure blew the end of the tank off and through the attached treatment building, completely demolishing the building,” police said.

This is also report at http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41232342?uid=3739808&a... called "Investigation of a Water Pressure Tank Explosion" that occurred in 1938 following a water pressure tank explosion in the muncipal water supply of Bricelyn, Minnesota. Apparently, some eight months prior the tank was drained and received a Zinc lining.

Less credible, but perhaps a valuable clue to the chemistry involved is even a report of an exploding fish tank (see http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/phpBB3/topic1309.html). But this may be just someone's nightmare, well perhaps not, as here is a report of a 33-ton Shark tank in a Shanghai shopping center lobby with 6 inch thick glass walls that cracked in just 2 seconds flat (see the video at http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/148711/shark_tank_exp... ). Source: New York Daily News, Dec 27, 2012 and also ABC News.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hypothesis:

For those water tank events not related to a pressure eruption, my first suggestion for this class is most likely a flammable gas, Hydrogen sulfide (H2S ), which per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_sulfide ) is both flammable and explosive. It can be formed by the action of bacteria in sulfur rich water with deficient oxygen content, to quote:

"Hydrogen sulfide often results from the bacterial breakdown of organic matter in the absence of oxygen, such as in swamps and sewers; this process is commonly known as anaerobic digestion. H2S also occurs in volcanic gases, natural gas, and some well waters."

So the chemistry (or biochemistry) here would be water in a tank loses O2 on warming and in the presence of organics fosters the creation of some H2S gas, which being very heavy, could form dangerous explosive accumulation.

--------------------------

Next, hypothesis for this class is the formation of explosives Chloramine (NH2Cl) vapors from chlorine in water (via chlorination) producing Hypochlorous acid (HOCl), which forms Chloramine in the presence of ammonia (from decaying matter):

Cl2 + H2O <--> HCl + HOCl

NH3 + HOCl <--> NH2Cl + H2O

---------------------------

 

The last hypothesis for the explosive gas formation is perhaps the least likely cause. It is formation of Nitrogen trichloride or trichloramine (NCl3), a yellow oily liquid that floats on water and only slowly undergoes hydrolysis, which is explosively sensitive to heat, shock and the presence of organic matter. Now, a source for its creation is per Wikipedia (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCl3 ) to quote:

"Nitrogen trichloride can form in small amounts when public water supplies are disinfected with monochloramine, and in swimming pools by disinfecting chlorine reacting with urea in urine from bathers"

So, a large water tank may provide a collection vessel for the formation of explosive NCl3 and its vapors. Some chemistry:

NHCl2 + HOCl <--> NCl3 + H2O
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following hypotheses relate to the class of Water Tank Pressure Explosions, which I view as more complex with respect to chemistry:

First path is per the source provided below, the decomposition of NH2Cl itself which forms many products including N2 gas leading to a possible pressure explosion/rapid decomposition reaction:

"As shown in Table 1, chloramine loss by auto-decomposition is a relatively complex process. However, the overall rate of chloramine loss for neutral pH values and above is primarily limited by the rate of formation of dichloramine (Jafvert and Valentine, 1992). Dichloramine formation occurs through both monochloramine hydrolysis (reactions 1.2 and 1.3) and by a general acid catalyzed monochloramine disproportionation reaction (reaction 1.5). The relative importance of these pathways on the formation of dichloramine is dependent on factors like pH, ionic strength, temperature, and alkalinity. Once dichloramine forms it decomposes via a series of rapid redox reactions. The products of these reactions are primarily ammonia, chloride, and nitrogen gas, however, nitrate also forms under some conditions (Vikesland et al., 1998)."

where the dichloramine is formed variously including:

NH2Cl + NH2Cl --> NHCl2 + NH3

 

NH2Cl + H2O <--> HOCl + NH3

NH2Cl + HOCl <--> NHCl2 + H2O

Link: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/12006087_Monochloram...
------------------------------------------------

A second path is a more simple model that does not require Chlorine or Hypochlorous acid. Just air (actually O2 and CO2), ammonia (from decaying organic matter) and the appropriate metal (Copper or Zinc). Per this source, "Kinetics and Mechanism of Copper Dissolution In Aqueous Ammonia", fully available after signing on to ones Facebook account at http://www.academia.edu/292096/Kinetics_and_Mechanism_of_Cop... ) Copper, for example, is capable of reacting slowly (or rapidly depending on concentrations) with ammonia and air to form a soluble cupric salt. A side product is the formation of nitrites. Upon acidification (with CO2), nitrites (like NH4NO2) can produce a rapid gaseous decomposition yielding N2.

Some of the underlying reactions cited by this source include:

2 Cu + 4 NH3 + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH

2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH + 4 NH3 (aq) + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2

Cu + [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2 <---> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH

And, with respect to this thread, an important side reaction forming a nitrite:

2 NH3 (aq) + 3 O2 + [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2 --> [Cu(NH3)4](NO2)2 + 4 H2O

Another author cites the following reaction, see "Copper-Mediated Non-Enzymatic Formation of Nitrite from Ammonia and Hydrogen peroxide at Alkaline pH", that is pertinent relating to nitrite formation noted above (please see http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=reaction%20of...Fchem%2Fchempdf%2FCT%3D23(646-656)AJ11.pdf&ei=iS-mUfCNN4nr0gGYw4D4BA&usg=AFQjCNFaObAi5_3NNOdt8e1DiRoiHzg9bg&bvm=bv.47008514,d.dmQ , which have some important subtle differences:

Cu2O + 4 NH3 + H2O → 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH

Diamminecopper(I), then generated from reduction of the copper(II) salt or added exogenously, then facilitates the oxidation of ammonia:

...[Catalyst Role]..Cu(NH3)2]OH.........................
NH3 + 3 H2O2 -----------------> HNO2 + 4 H2O

With additional ammonia, the reaction with nitrous acid proceeds as follows:

HNO2 + NH3•H2O --> NH4NO2 + H2O

 

The important subtle difference here being only a trace amount of Copper need be present with Nitrous acid and Ammonium nitrite formation being the cause of a possible significant and sudden Nitrogen gas evolution. This reaction could occur over time, as a function of the rapidity of water turnover in the tank (the lack of would could occur following a large scale evacuation for, say, a hurricane event, which is interestingly one of the reported events above in Chester, New York with hurricane Irene).

Now, I actually performed the above reaction replacing atmospheric oxygen with some dilute H2O2 to speed things up. To my surprise, Copper pennies (my Cu source) became readily covered with O2 in agreement with a cathodic reduction reaction of oxygen at the copper's surface per the author's electrochemical dissolution model.
------------------------------------------------------

The last model has relatively simple chemistry requiring an oxygen source (like air or Hypochlorous acid from the action of Chlorine and water), CO2 and a significant presence of Iron bicarbonate. The reaction is, for example:

 

2 Fe(HCO3)2 + HOCl + H2O --> 2 Fe(OH)3↓ + 4 CO2↑ + HCl

 

where one mole of Hypochlorous acid (or half a mole of O2) liberates 4 moles of CO2 gas.

---------------------------------------------------------

 

Side Notes:
The decomposition of NH2Cl is also known to be expedited in the presence of nitrites (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/12006087_Monochloram...
) and also cupric salts .These latter comments may be significant when working with fish tanks fed by ones internal copper plumbing or with exposure to zinc.

 

Municipal drinking water is frequently aerated for various reasons, I suspect, including purification, taste and to check the formation such gases. As a source see http://www.gewater.com/handbook/ext_treatment/ch_4_aeration.... to quote:

"Aeration as a water treatment practice is used for the following operations:
• carbon dioxide reduction (decarbonation)
• oxidation of iron and manganese found in many well waters (oxidation tower)
• ammonia and hydrogen sulfide reduction (stripping)

Aeration is also an effective method of bacteria control"

 

What is interesting about the above is sufficient aeration could remove nearly all the suggested paths to either a flammable gas, or ammonia and iron that could form H2S, N2 or CO2 gases. However, once Chloramine, NH2Cl, has been formed and given its reported relative stability (being one of the reason cite for its employment over Chlorine), aeration is not one of the more effective means for its removal.

In summary, the incidents relating to explosive vapors could be attributed to H2S, NH2Cl vapors (which are reportedly explosive) or the NCl3 hypothesis (flame or shock initiated explosion), but the fish tank and other obvious pressure ruptures lends support to paths forming nitrogen gas (from the auto-decomposition of NH2Cl, or from ammonia forming nitrites catalyzed by Cu, or perhaps even Zn) or CO2 gas emission (from O2 or HOCl on Iron rich water).

Edited June 6, 2013 by ajkoer

[ajkoer]

Some more history: This is a case of a water treatment tank exploding. To quote:

 

"Redding, California – June 17, 2011 Fred Crumb, 54, was killed Thursday when a large water tank exploded at the Clear Creek Wastewater Treatment Plant.

 

The California Occupational Safety and Health Administration report that Mr. Crumb was working at the sewage treatment plant when a steel 4,500-gallon tank exploded. The tank was 33 years old. According to the Shasta County Coroner’s Office, Mr. Crumb was killed as a result of critical injuries he sustained to his head in the explosion. . Redding Public Works and the California Safety and Health Administration are still investigating the explosion."

 

This could be a case of pre-aeration (H2S accumulation) or active chlorination occurring (NCl3 formation/detonation). The presence of an old steel tank, most likely corroded, may indicate some FeCl3. Ferric chloride can increase the so called 'activity level' of acids in highly salt rich solutions, so dilute HCl and HOCl (from Cl2 hydrolysis) and even H2CO3 (from CO2) are effectively stronger acids. This would lower pH and favor NHCl2, NCl3 and even Fe(HCO3)2 formation. However, is also likely, given that the steel was 33 years old, it was galvanized steel (meaning coated with Zn). As such, an electrochemical oxidation (that similarly occurs in the presence of Copper) of the NH2Cl and NH3 to nitrogen via nitrites, implying a possible rapid N2 gas decomposition, may be responsible as well

Edited June 6, 2013 by ajkoer

[CaptainPanic]

Two comments:

 

1. You obviously copy-pasted the urls from somewhere else. This broke them. A lot of the links in your 1st post, possibly all, are broken.

 

2. Please write us a short abstract next time: in 2-3 sentences, what is this about, the main point, and the main conclusion. Your post is very long, and it does not look inviting to start reading it all. Sorry.

[ajkoer]

CaptainPanic: Thanks, my transfer from a word document appears to have broken some of the links. I will repost the whole document below and, I may be able to insert (with edits) an abstract to improve the flow. I sincerely believe this thread serves a public need and thank you again for your input. ---------------------------------------------------------- REPOST (for the purpose of a report to OSHA with the help of the members of Science Forum and its administrators):

 

ABSTRACT

While the rupturing and/or explosion of massive sized water tanks occurs rarely, it is oftened accompanied by some loss of life and large property loss. With the intent of forwarding a report to the OSHA, this resport assembles some a chemical based theories differentiating by class for explosive vapors versus clearly pressure eruptions. A brief history of water tank incidents along with an interesting aquarium incident are documented. Hypotheses are delineated for each class of type of explosion. Chemistry for pressure explosions, the chief interest for this work, suggest auto-decomposition of Chloramine (NH2Cl) forming N2 gas, together with possible rapid decomposition of nitrites in the presence of select metals to N2 as a potential cause, as well as even the possible liberation of CO2 from Iron rich water.

 

HISTORY

First, some history of the events to ascertain some possible patterns. Here is a report of a large explosion from Fox News reported on April 07, 2011 "Two Killed From 300,000 Gallon Water Tank Explosion" (see http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/07/killed-300000-gallon-water-tank-explosion/ ). To quote:

 

"Two men died Thursday when a 300,000 gallon water tank exploded in Florida, unleashing a flood and causing an adjacent building to collapse. The victims were in the midst of repairing a pump that filled the tank inside an adjacent concrete block building. The force of the water from the explosion caused the building to collapse, MyFoxTampaBay.com reported."

 

Here is another incident in Tomball, Texas where a worker was killed after a water storage tank exploded (see http://www.khou.com/news/Worker-injured-in-church-water-tank-explosion-127869308.html ) to quote:

 

"The man was cutting on the top of the tank to provide ventilation," said Lieutenant Chad Shaw with the Harris County Fire Marshal’s Office. "The tank was about three quarters full of water but there was a build-up of combustible vapors above the water. Sparks or a flame caused by the cutting ignited the vapors, causing the explosion."

 

Here is a report of yet another large water tank explosion in Galax, Virginia (see )http://www.thecarrollnews.com/view/full_story/22210488/article-Water-tank-explodes-in-Galax , and also in Chester, New York (see http://chroniclenewspaper.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20121003/NEWS01/121009993/Water-tank-explodes-in-Chester- ) where to quote:

 

"Internal pressure blew the end of the tank off and through the attached treatment building, completely demolishing the building,” police said.

 

There is also a report at http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41232342?uid=3739808&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102371396667 called "Investigation of a Water Pressure Tank Explosion" that occurred in 1938 following a water pressure tank explosion in the muncipal water supply of Bricelyn, Minnesota. Apparently, some eight months prior the tank was drained and received a Zinc lining.

 

Less credible, but perhaps a valuable clue to the chemistry involved is even a report of an exploding fish tank (see http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/phpBB3/topic1309.html. But this may be just someone's nightmare, well perhaps not, as here is a report of a 33-ton Shark tank in a Shanghai shopping center lobby with 6 inch thick glass walls that cracked in just 2 seconds flat (see the video at http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/148711/shark_tank_explodes_all_over ). Source: New York Daily News, Dec 27, 2012 and also ABC News.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

HYPOTHESIS

For those water tank events not related to a pressure eruption, my first suggestion for this class is most likely a flammable gas, Hydrogen sulfide (H2S ), which per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_sulfide ) is both flammable and explosive. It can be formed by the action of bacteria in sulfur rich water with deficient oxygen content, to quote:

 

"Hydrogen sulfide often results from the bacterial breakdown of organic matter in the absence of oxygen, such as in swamps and sewers; this process is commonly known as anaerobic digestion. H2S also occurs in volcanic gases, natural gas, and some well waters."

 

So the chemistry (or biochemistry) here would be water in a tank loses O2 on warming and in the presence of organics fosters the creation of some H2S gas, which being very heavy, could form dangerous explosive accumulation.

--------------------------

 

Next, hypothesis for this class is the formation of explosives Chloramine (NH2Cl) vapors from chlorine in water (via chlorination) producing Hypochlorous acid (HOCl), which forms Chloramine in the presence of ammonia (from decaying matter):

 

Cl2 + H2O <--> HCl + HOCl

NH3 + HOCl <--> NH2Cl + H2O

---------------------------

 

The last hypothesis for the explosive gas formation is perhaps the least likely cause. It is formation of Nitrogen trichloride or trichloramine (NCl3), a yellow oily liquid that floats on water and only slowly undergoes hydrolysis, which is explosively sensitive to heat, shock and the presence of organic matter. Now, a source for its creation is per Wikipedia (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCl3 ) to quote:

 

"Nitrogen trichloride can form in small amounts when public water supplies are disinfected with monochloramine, and in swimming pools by disinfecting chlorine reacting with urea in urine from bathers"

 

So, a large water tank may provide a collection vessel for the formation of explosive NCl3 and its vapors.

 

Some chemistry:

 

NHCl2 + HOCl <--> NCl3 + H2O

 

Normally, more acidic conditions (low pH) promote the formation of Nitrogen trichloride. However, where the water has high H2S content, to de-odorize the water, more heavy chlorination can be used. The reaction are:

 

Cl2 + H2O <--> HOCl + HCl

H2S + HOCl --> H2O + S (s) + HCl

S + 2 HOCl + H2O --> H2SO3 + 2 HCl

H2SO3 + HOCl --> H2SO4 + HCl

 

all of which consumes Chlorine (actually HOCl from Chlorine hydrolysis) requiring more Cl2 to address the H2S problem. This makes the water more acidic with the creation of HCl, H2SO3 and H2SO4 contributing to the problematic pH senstive nitrite decomposition reaction discussed below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The following hypotheses relate to the class of Water Tank Pressure Explosions, which I view as more complex with respect to chemistry.

 

First path is per the source provided below, the decomposition of NH2Cl itself which forms many products including N2 gas leading to a possible pressure explosion/rapid decomposition reaction: To quote:

 

"As shown in Table 1, chloramine loss by auto-decomposition is a relatively complex process. However, the overall rate of chloramine loss for neutral pH values and above is primarily limited by the rate of formation of dichloramine (Jafvert and Valentine, 1992). Dichloramine formation occurs through both monochloramine hydrolysis (reactions 1.2 and 1.3) and by a general acid catalyzed monochloramine disproportionation reaction (reaction 1.5). The relative importance of these pathways on the formation of dichloramine is dependent on factors like pH, ionic strength, temperature, and alkalinity. Once dichloramine forms it decomposes via a series of rapid redox reactions. The products of these reactions are primarily ammonia, chloride, and nitrogen gas, however, nitrate also forms under some conditions (Vikesland et al., 1998)."

 

where the dichloramine is formed variously including:

NH2Cl + NH2Cl --> NHCl2 + NH3

NH2Cl + H2O <--> HOCl + NH3

NH2Cl + HOCl <--> NHCl2 + H2O

 

Link: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/12006087_Monochloramine_decay_in_model_and_distribution_system_waters

------------------------------------------------

 

A second path is a more simple model that does not require Chlorine or Hypochlorous acid. Just air (actually O2 and CO2), ammonia (from decaying organic matter) and the appropriate metal (Copper or Zinc). Per this source, "Kinetics and Mechanism of Copper Dissolution In Aqueous Ammonia", fully available after signing on to ones Facebook account at )http://www.academia.edu/292096/Kinetics_and_Mechanism_of_Copper_Dissolution_In_Aqueous_Ammonia Copper, for example, is capable of reacting slowly (or rapidly depending on concentrations) with ammonia and air to form a soluble cupric salt. A side product is the formation of nitrites. Upon acidification (with CO2), nitrites (like NH4NO2) can produce a rapid gaseous decomposition yielding N2. Some of the underlying reactions cited by this source include:

 

2 Cu + 4 NH3 + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH

2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH + 4 NH3 (aq) + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2

Cu + [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2 <---> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH

 

And, with respect to this thread, an important side reaction forming a nitrite:

 

2 NH3 (aq) + 3 O2 + [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2 --> [Cu(NH3)4](NO2)2 + 4 H2O

 

Another author cites the following reaction, see "Copper-Mediated Non-Enzymatic Formation of Nitrite from Ammonia and Hydrogen peroxide at Alkaline pH", that is pertinent relating to nitrite formation noted above (please see http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=copper-mediated%20non-enzymatic%20formation%20of%20nitrite&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsphinxsai.com%2Fvol3.no2%2Fchem%2Fchempdf%2FCT%3D23(646-656)AJ11.pdf&ei=NLWwUdOMJJWu4APZy4DwAQ&usg=AFQjCNFaObAi5_3NNOdt8e1DiRoiHzg9bg&bvm=bv.47534661,d.dmQ , which have some important subtle differences:

 

Cu2O + 4 NH3 + H2O → 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH

 

Diamminecopper(I), then generated from reduction of the copper(II) salt or added exogenously, then facilitates the oxidation of ammonia:

 

[Catalyst Role]..Cu(NH3)2]OH.................

NH3 + 3 H2O2 ---------------> HNO2 + 4 H2O

 

With additional ammonia, the reaction with nitrous acid proceeds as follows:

 

HNO2 + NH3•H2O --> NH4NO2 + H2O

 

The important subtle difference here being only a trace amount of Copper need be present with Nitrous acid and Ammonium nitrite formation notorious for significant and sudden Nitrogen gas evolution. This reaction could occur slowly over time, as a function of the rapidity of water turnover in storage tank. However, following a large scale evacuation for, say, a hurricane event (which is interestingly one of the reported events above in Chester, New York with hurricane Irene), the water turnover could decline.

 

Now, I actually performed the above reaction replacing atmospheric oxygen with some dilute H2O2 to speed things up. To my surprise, Copper pennies (my Cu source) became readily covered with O2 in agreement with a cathodic reduction reaction of oxygen at the copper's surface per the author's electrochemical dissolution model.

------------------------------------------------------

 

The last model has relatively simple chemistry requiring an oxygen source (like air or Hypochlorous acid from the action of Chlorine and water), CO2 and a significant presence of Iron bicarbonate. The reaction is, for example:

 

2 Fe(HCO3)2 + HOCl + H2O --> 2 Fe(OH)3↓ + 4 CO2↑ + HCl

 

where one mole of Hypochlorous acid (or half a mole of O2) liberates 4 moles of CO2 gas.

---------------------------------------------------------

 

Side Notes: The decomposition of NH2Cl is also known to be expedited in the presence of nitrites (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/12006087_Monochloramine_decay_in_model_and_distribution_system_waters ) and also cupric salts .These latter comments may be significant when working with fish tanks fed by ones internal copper plumbing or with exposure to zinc.

 

Municipal drinking water is frequently aerated for various reasons, I suspect, including purification, taste and to check the formation such gases. As a source see http://www.gewater.com/handbook/ext_treatment/ch_4_aeration.jsp to quote:

 

"Aeration as a water treatment practice is used for the following operations:

• carbon dioxide reduction (decarbonation)

• oxidation of iron and manganese found in many well waters (oxidation tower)

• ammonia and hydrogen sulfide reduction (stripping)

 

Aeration is also an effective method of bacteria control"

 

What is interesting about the above is sufficient aeration could remove nearly all the suggested paths to either a flammable gas, or ammonia and iron that could form problematic H2S, N2 or CO2 gases. However, once Chloramine, NH2Cl, has been formed and given its reported relative stability (being one of the reason cite for its employment over Chlorine), aeration is not one of the more effective means for its removal.

 

In summary suggested paths for future investigation include explosive vapors attributed to H2S, NH2Cl vapors or the NCl3 hypothesis (flame or shock initiated explosion), but the fish tank and other obvious pressure ruptures lends support to paths forming nitrogen gas (from the auto-decomposition of NH2Cl, or from ammonia forming nitrites catalyzed by Cu, or perhaps even Zn) or CO2 gas emission (from O2 or HOCl on Iron rich water).

Edited June 6, 2013 by ajkoer

[John Cuthber]

This whole idea is essentially bollocks.

The levels of free chlorine in water are typically about a part in a million.

That could generate (at best) about a part in a million of nitrogen trichloride.

At that level NCl3 is soluble in water and, obviously, not concentrated enough to cause an explosion.

 

"So, a large water tank may provide a collection vessel for the formation of explosive NCl3 and its vapors. Some chemistry:"

Yes, but not enough chemistry. You need to look up Raoult's law.

 

There are, on the other hand, sensible explanations of the tank failures you cite.

A zinc coated tank will generate hydrogen which is known to be explosively flammable when mixed with air.

 

A cutting torch will, if not properly adjusted, give rise to fumes which are flammable.

 

"What is interesting about the above is sufficient aeration could remove nearly all the suggested paths to either a flammable gas"

Except that it would promote a lot of corrosion, which also makes tanks fail.

 

Seriously, this whole idea of yours is rubbish.

[ajkoer]

John Cuthber: Thanks for your comment. My first comment is that it is generally believed that Zn does not react with water (see for example, http://www.webelements.com/zinc/chemistry.html ). However, in the presence of a salt solution, oxygen and NH3, I can accept an electrochemical oxidation reaction forming a Zinc salt. In acidic water, yes, some Hydrogen. However, my main focus is on the unexplained pressure buildup, most likely sudden, that is rupturing these tanks.

 

I did state I am skeptical on the NCl3 hypothesis, but there are known explosions that accidentally occur during water chlorination attributed to NCl3. Maintaining the proper water turbulence is usually employed to reduce the possible creation of NCl3 by promoting the hydrolysis reaction which normally occurs in hot water (see Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_trichloride ) :

 

NCl3 + 3 H2O → NH3 + 3 HOCl

 

See also this summary source (http://www.chloramine.org/literature_pdf/chloramine_facts_060911.pdf ), to quote:

 

"The three species of chloramine constantly and rapidly shift from one form to

another. The species that predominates is dependent on pH, temperature,

turbulence, and the chlorine to ammonia ratio."

 

Also, here is a small part of a preparation for NCl3 that is relevant, to quote:

 

"The chlorine is absorbed and oily drops of the trichloride float on the surface of the solution"

 

where, I would speculate, NCl3 droplets could coalesce absence any turbulence.

 

Now, NCl3 by itself is not a candidate, in my opinion, on any of pressure based explosions, which you did not comment on. Now, this link (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41232342?uid=3739808&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102372208537 ) supplied previously per a 1938 investigation, in the opening paragraph of the investigation, does point to the Zinc lining as a contributing factor to the water pressure tank explosion. Some of the chemistry I have presented, based on more recent chemistry (for example, the Cu catalysted oxidation of ammonia in air is 1962 and the second author 2011) indicate the formation of nitrites noted for their notorious N2 decomposition properties (namely rapid & violent, pH and concentration sensitive).

 

I do think the term mystery is appropriate as per this article " Tank Explosion Still Mystifies Investigators?". To quote:

 

"Officials Are Hunting For The Cause Of A Water Tank Accident That Killed A Minneola Worker. One Said There Were No Safety Violations. March 15, 1995, by Terri Coole Sentinel Correspondent MINNEOLA — Officials are still baffled about what could have caused a water tank explosion two weeks ago that killed a city worker who was crushed against a chain-link fence by a 3,000-gallon blast of water."

 

The picture below is, I believe, an example of a pressure based rupture on a water tank.

Edited June 6, 2013 by ajkoer

[John Cuthber]

That quote "The chlorine is absorbed and oily drops of the trichloride float on the surface of the solution"

is pointless.

Saying that NCl3 will coalesce on the surface is like saying that salt will fall out of a solution and settle at the bottom of the sea.

It would if there were enough of it to make a saturated solution, but there's no way that will happen with a few ppm of Cl2.

It's a ridiculous assertion.

[ajkoer]

JohnCuthber:

 

I will not try to defend the NCl3 path as I have already stated it is a weak hypothesis among better alternatives. I also will further characterize it as very unlikely. I also accept and will note the essential dilution associated with NH2Cl presence that you stated.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

My claim that Zinc is a potential issue as well as copper has mixed, but insightful, reviews in the literature. For example, this old reference from the Proceedings of the Chemical Society (Great Britain), Vol 22-24, pages 39-40, at http://books.google.com/books?id=LNEfAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=oxidation+of+ammonia+by+H2O2+in+the+presence+of+Zinc&source=bl&ots=t8qGMmn74s&sig=EjFv4ljd7Y2S2xU-Q_ONK2K3too&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ITGxUe6uMZCi4APbtIGgDA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwADge#v=onepage&q=oxidation%20of%20ammonia%20by%20H2O2%20in%20the%20presence%20of%20Zinc&f=false characterizes the oxidation of ammonia in the presence of air and zinc as sometimes leading to positive results and sometimes negative. This suggested to me a missing piece, which occurred to me is a trace amount of Copper or soluble Copper salt. In essence, a so called copper-zinc couple. The chemistry, for example, in the presence of NH3 and O2 (previously given) for Copper:

 

2 Cu + 4 NH3 + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH

 

...[Catalyst Role]..Cu(NH3)2]OH.........................
NH3 + 3 H2O2 -----------------> HNO2 + 4 H2O

HNO2 + NH3•H2O ---------------> NH4NO2 + H2O

 

2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH + 4 NH3 (aq) + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2
Cu + [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2 <---> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH

 

But now, in the presence of a Zinc plate, a significant reaction could be:

 

Zn + [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2 <---> Cu + [Zn(NH3)4](OH)2

 

so the Copper would be regenerated at the expense of Zinc, to form potentially more nitrite.

 

Even more profound is that this reaction is not limited to Zinc, but potentially could occur in the presence of any metal (or alloy thereof) that is chemically more reactive than Copper that forms a complex with ammonia. So, some metal container could be at risk, for example, an iron container coated in Zn, Sn, Cr,...

Edited June 7, 2013 by ajkoer

[John Cuthber]

Any Cu++ species would, in the presence of metallic zinc, be reduced to the metal.

So, yes, you would get a copper zinc couple.

And that would probably generate hydrogen.

 

Are you aware that they chlorinate water supplies and that destroys ammonia quite well?

 

Most water supplies have no H2O2 in them.

[ajkoer]

OK John, a zinc-copper couple will form Hydrogen with water, but only if hot water (see http://www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/elem001.html ). Not clear if the larger water tanks can be heated to measurably form Hydrogen. But I admit, H2S and H2 are not safe gases around sparks and could be responsible for some of the maintenance related explosions.

 

"Are you aware that they chlorinate water supplies and that destroys ammonia quite well?"

 

Yes, but the job isn't done until you drink the water. The problem is keeping the bacteria and decaying matter from contaminating the once clean chlorinated water. One of the argument for the use of Chloramine is its increased stability, so its is around to disinfectant after all the Cl2 is spent. Chlorine, forming HOCl, is much more effective, especially in killing viruses, if still present in the water. Per the summary source I provided the link for above, some relevant points to quote:

 

"• Chloramine is a less effective disinfectant than chlorine. The World Health Organization (WHO, PDF 950 KB) says that "monochloramine is about 2,000 and 100,000 times less effective than free chlorine for the inactivation of E. Coli and rotaviruses, respectively."

 

• Chloramine does not dissipate easily compared to chlorine.

 

• Chloramine stays in the water distribution system longer than chlorine."

 

One of the reason I introduce the aquarium example is because it is an extreme case of where the NH3 (and/or Urea) content can get high. In other words, normally the ammonia content is low, but, on rare instances, it may spike as it occurs in fish tanks.

 

Note, aeration helps to remove NH3 and limits bacteria growth. But, for whatever reason, a temporary loss in aeration can raise ammonia levels.

 

Also, yes, H2O2 is not used commercially to purify water. The citation of H2O2 is per the chemistry supplied in reference paper noted above. The reaction using even dilute Hydrogen peroxide is many times faster than waiting for atmospheric oxygen to act on ammonia, but otherwise not that different.

Edited June 7, 2013 by ajkoer

[John Cuthber]

You seem to be arguing against yourself.

Chloramines are not as good at killing bugs as chlorine.

They want to kill bugs.

They add enough chlorine to destroy anything which reduces chlorine (like ammonia and also organic stuff) and leave a little extra chlorine .

 

So, there's no ammonia (or organic stuff) left.

In principle, all the ammonia is destroyed by the reaction you haven't cited

2 NH3 + 3 Cl2 --> 6 HCl + N2

 

 

Does this thread actually have a point?

If so, please sum it up in a few lines so we can comment on it.

[arc]

This whole idea is essentially bollocks.

The levels of free chlorine in water are typically about a part in a million.

That could generate (at best) about a part in a million of nitrogen trichloride.

At that level NCl3 is soluble in water and, obviously, not concentrated enough to cause an explosion.

 

"So, a large water tank may provide a collection vessel for the formation of explosive NCl3 and its vapors. Some chemistry:"

Yes, but not enough chemistry. You need to look up Raoult's law.

 

There are, on the other hand, sensible explanations of the tank failures you cite.

A zinc coated tank will generate hydrogen which is known to be explosively flammable when mixed with air.

 

A cutting torch will, if not properly adjusted, give rise to fumes which are flammable.

 

"What is interesting about the above is sufficient aeration could remove nearly all the suggested paths to either a flammable gas"

Except that it would promote a lot of corrosion, which also makes tanks fail.

 

Seriously, this whole idea of yours is rubbish.

 

I live directly below two - 2,800,000 gal municipal water tanks. I assume all of these tanks are outside vented to facilitate water flow and the prevention of atmospheric pressure from crushing the tanks. I have seen tank implosion demonstrations also. I wonder if a partially full tank with a small or substantial draining taking place could with a venting malfunction sustain what appears to be an explosive failure due to the presence of a substantial water content. 1/2 full or so.

 

I have also on several occasions had first hand observations of light galv. steel electrical raceways with a painted surface sustain an electrolysis processes that reduced it to crumbs in less than a year. They had been outdoors on the side of a masonry buildings. There was not a surface anyplace inside that was not without a rusty fuzz that resembled velvet. The processes began on the inside and worked outwards, the paint was the only real structure left.

 

Could electrolysis provide the means for structural failure and/or means to create hydrogen gas within these tanks? arc

[ajkoer]

Since we are talking about the existence of ammonia in drinking water, it is perhaps appropriate to cite some sources (see http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/phs/phs.asp?id=9&tid=2 ) to quote:

 

"It [ammonia] is found in water, soil, and air, and is a source of much needed nitrogen for
plants and animals. Most of the ammonia in the environment comes from the
natural breakdown of manure and dead plants and animals."

 

Also, per this reference (http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/consult/_2012/ammonia-ammoniac/draft-ebauche-eng.php )::

 

"Levels of ammonia, either naturally present in the source water or added as part of a disinfection strategy, can affect water quality in the distribution system (e.g., nitrification) and should be monitored."

 

and:

 

"The concentration of free ammonia entering the distribution system can lead to nitrification and the potential increase of nitrate and nitrite in drinking water."

 

So the bottom line is a possible cause for municipal water tank pressure related explosions could be an unusual increase in nitrite concentration, especially from the oxidation of ammonia in the presence of certain metals precipitating a dangerous and rapid nitrogen gas evolution depending on conditions (including pH, concentration and water temperature).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" have also on several occasions had first hand observations of light galv. steel electrical raceways with a painted surface sustain an electrolysis processes that reduced it to crumbs in less than a year."

 

Galvanic corrosion is certainly real. Here is a comment from a Wikipedia article on this subject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion ) to quote:

 

"A common example of galvanic corrosion is the rusting of corrugated iron sheet, which becomes widespread when the protective zinc coating is broken and the underlying steel is attacked. The zinc is attacked preferentially because it is less noble, but once it has been consumed, rusting of the base metal can occur in earnest."

 

Also, some important factors listed include "the conductivity of the water within the system" and its pH. In the case of the sign, exposure to acidic exhaust could lower pH. Dust (containing minerals) and moisture form the electrolyte.

 

"Could electrolysis provide the means for structural failure and/or means to create hydrogen gas within these tanks?"

 

Yes, corrosion could increase pitting and possible structural issues. In my opinion, hydrogen gas generation should not be such an issue (assuming it is slow), assuming the presence of functioning pressure release valves, as to precipiate a gas pressure tank eruption, but I could be wrong.

Edited June 8, 2013 by ajkoer

[John Cuthber]

There are natural (and sometimes artificial ) sources of ammonia in water but ther's not much.

"Water

Natural levels in groundwaters are usually below 0.2 mg of ammonia per litre. Higher natural
contents (up to 3 mg/litre) are found in strata rich in humic substances or iron or in forests (8).
Surface waters may contain up to 12 mg/litre"

from

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/ammonia.pdf

 

And much, if not most of that ammonia is destroyed by chlorination before the water ends up in the supply.

So your suggestion makes a little sense as saying that , because there may be traces of glycerine in water and there may be traces of nitrates, the explosions are due to nitroglycerine.

 

On the other hand, hydrogen is a plausible product, especially if there's zinc present.

So is methane in some circumstances, though not usually in treated water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbeystead_disaster

[ajkoer]

John: I will consider adding Hydrogen to the pressure based tank ruptures after some experimenting. I have witness the nitrite based nitrogen gas formation reaction. Using accelerators like H2O2, overnight a pressure detonation (use a plastic container for safety) is easily obtainable. If the H2 from warming water (to accelerator) with a Zn-Cu couple can produce a gas pressure explosion, it is a good candidate, in my opinion, requiring only warm water, zinc and a small amount of a soluble copper salt.

 

The argument for adding ammonia to the input list appears reasonable as in high NH3/Urea environment (an aquarium, for example) there is, at least, one unexplained gas pressure rupture. The rarity of the events also suggest the need for an unusual concentration level of a common impurity. The chief factor favoring the nitrite theory is the known violent decomposition property of the reputedly formed NH4NO2.

 

An interesting aspect of the nitrite decomposition model is that per this reference (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=rapid%20decomposition%20of%20ammonium%20nitrite&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CFoQFjAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fsrac.tamu.edu%2Findex.cfm%2Fevent%2FgetFactSheet%2Fwhichfactsheet%2F169%2F&ei=fz6zUandA-nT0wGI54CoDA&usg=AFQjCNFRsBbL2istZBuWQrhrHLAM-wK7MA ) to quote:

 

"Bacteria oxidize ammonia in a two-step process, first to nitrite (NO2-) and then to nitrate (NO3-). The main factors that affect nitrification rate are ammonia concentration, temperature and dissolved oxygen concentration. During summer, ammonia concentration is very low and so nitrification rates are also very low. During winter, low temperature suppresses microbial activity. During spring and fall, ammonia concentration and temperature are intermediate, conditions that favor maximum nitrification rates. Spring and fall peaks of nitrite concentration are commonly seen in fish ponds."

 

So an interesting statistical correlation, but by no means definitive, based on seasonality and a larger sample, may be observed for municipal water tanks with respect to nitrite formation and reported incidents (interestingly, 2 instances of all the events I listed relating to pressure ruptures occurred in the month of April). I would also expect for flammable/explosion events, that summer months would be slightly more prevalent.

Edited June 8, 2013 by ajkoer

[John Cuthber]

"I have witness the nitrite based nitrogen gas formation reaction."

So have I, but I wouldn't waste time trying to demonstrate it with a solution that only contained a part in a million of nitrite.

"Using accelerators like H2O2, overnight a pressure detonation (use a plastic container for safety) is easily obtainable."

Not if you are using a 1 ppm solution.

 

"The argument for adding ammonia to the input list appears reasonable as in high NH3/Urea environment (an aquarium, for example)"

Aquaria are generally vented so no gas would build up.

Also, ammonia is quite toxic so they don't permit it to accumulate in aquaria.

[ajkoer]

As I cited in the reported investigation of the pressure eruption above, the water tank is equipped with a pressure release valve. So, a slow release of H2 from a trace amount of Copper catalyst, does seem to me to be the most plausible explanation.

I do admit, your concentration argument may be problematic, even if a large amount of solution is present. However, changing focus from NH4NO2 to HNO2 and NO may be appropriate. Source, per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNO2 ) to quote:

"In anything other than very dilute, cold solutions, nitrous acid rapidly decomposes into nitrogen dioxide, nitric oxide and water:

2 HNO2 --> NO + NO2 + H2O

So, upon change in temperature, or pH, the dilute Nitrous acid could decompose releasing Nitric oxide gas (NO). This gas could accumulate, cause pressure issues or act as a path to the sudden formation of nitrites upon future O2 exposure. For example:

2 NO + O2 --> 2 NO2

2 NO2 + H2O --> HNO3 + HNO2

or, with excess NO relative to oxygen:

4 NO + O2 + 2 H2O --> 4 HNO2 (see Wkipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_oxide )

So NO gas may act as a nitrite accumulation/storage vehicle, as well as a potential cause of gas pressure issues.

Edited June 8, 2013 by ajkoer

[Moontanman]

As I cited in the reported investigation of the pressure eruption above, the water tank is equipped with a pressure release valve. So, a slow release of H2 from a trace amount of Copper catalyst, does seem to me to be the most plausible explanation.

 

I do admit, your concentration argument may be problematic, even if a large amount of solution is present. However, changing focus from NH4NO2 to HNO2 and NO may be appropriate. Source, per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNO2 ) to quote:

 

"In anything other than very dilute, cold solutions, nitrous acid rapidly decomposes into nitrogen dioxide, nitric oxide and water:

 

2 HNO2 --> NO + NO2 + H2O

 

So, upon change in temperature, or pH, the dilute Nitrous acid could decompose releasing Nitric oxide gas (NO). This gas could accumulate, cause pressure issues or act as a path to the sudden formation of nitrites upon future O2 exposure. For example:

 

2 NO + O2 --> 2 NO2

2 NO2 + H2O --> HNO3 + HNO2

 

or, with excess NO relative to oxygen:

 

4 NO + O2 + 2 H2O --> 4 HNO2 (see Wkipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_oxide )

 

So NO gas may act as a nitrite accumulation/storage vehicle, as well as a potential cause of gas pressure issues.

 

 

Not in an aquarium...

[John Cuthber]

I do admit, your concentration argument may be problematic,

Good, because it also applies to nitrites, NO, NO2 and all the other weird ideas you have put forward.

 

BTW, do you realise that the reactions you have cited

2 NO + O2 --> 2 NO2

2 NO2 + H2O --> HNO3 + HNO2

give rise to a reduction in gas volume and pressure?

[ajkoer]

Yes, I agree not a path in for nitrite accumulation in an aquarium setting.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

I also just envisioned another manner employing HNO2 that is more direct, may facilitate accumulation and more frightening. As before, on warming HNO2 decomposes:

 

2 HNO2 --> NO + NO2 + H2O

 

Simultaneously, NH3 gas would be released also as a result of a rise in temperature. The frightening reaction is that it is known that ammonia fumes react with NO and NO2 gas mixture forming a white smoke of ammonium nitrite, NH4NO2:

 

2 NH3 + NO + NO2 + H2O --> 2 NH4NO2

 

Here is a quote from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NH4NO2 ):

"Ammonium nitrite forms naturally in the air and can be prepared by the absorption of equal parts nitrogen dioxide and nitric oxide upon aqueous ammonia.[2]"

This powder could accumulate on the sides of the water tank. Being an unstable and explosive compound, this may present an issue. Fortunately, Ammonium nitrite slowly decomposes at room temperature liberating nitrogen gas with the dry salt being reputedly more stable.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"BTW, do you realise that the reactions you have cited

2 NO + O2 --> 2 NO2
2 NO2 + H2O --> HNO3 + HNO2

give rise to a reduction in gas volume and pressure?"

 

The reaction chain of interest is first, Nitric oxide gas is accumulated via various ammonia oxidation paths. Second, NO is exposed to new O2 and per the reaction:

 

4 NO + O2 + 2 H2O --> 4 HNO2

 

in sufficient quantity to reform aqueous HNO2, but the solution concentration (or, at least, the local concentration at the top of the tank) may have increased. Third, it is decomposed again (heat, pH,..) to NO gas and the chain is repeated. Well, at least, until (if ever) there is a sufficient high HNO2 or NH4NO2 concentration to form a massive gas decomposition event.

Edited June 8, 2013 by ajkoer

[John Cuthber]

Are you serious?

Do you not realise that you have been talking nonsense throughout this thread?

 

Ammonia won't be released unless the conditions are alkaline.

HNO2 won't be produced unless the conditions are acid.

 

And neither is present at high concentrations in an aquarium because it would kill the fish.

[elementcollector1]

@ajkoer:

So far, every claim thrown forward by you has been debunked by basic chemistry and physics.

When are you going to accept that your hypotheses are false?

Not as in, "skeptically claimed" or "not likely". As in, entirely, completely, irrefutably false.

You've tried this odd tangent three times now - twice on ScienceMadness, and once here. What exactly does this topic mean to you that you're willing to continue three times after others have told (and proved) that it's wrong?

Edited June 8, 2013 by elementcollector1

[ajkoer]

"Ammonia won't be released unless the conditions are alkaline. HNO2 won't be produced unless the conditions are acid" In alkaline to neutral, free ammonia exists and upon warming, is expelled, there is no problem with my assertions here.

 

HNO2 exists in highly dilute solutions, again near neutral pH. I recall someone stating on how dilute these solutions are. Remember, this is a closed vessel, both reactions did not have to occur simultaneously, but within a range of the neutral conditions.

 

I agree this is a difficult nut to crack for several reasons. Sciencemadness (in spite of its name) refuses to acknowledge that there is a rare event, in spite of reported pressure eruptions in the media. So far, I have appreciated the discussion has it has generated some new ideas and questions to proposed paths as any theory presented must survive arguments as to how and why not.

 

If anyone has new theories, please present them, but claiming that all the incidents and investigations thereof, are all nonsense is really closed minded, One investigation in 1938 link the mechanism to the presence of a zinc lining, which I have embraced and discussed possible associated chemistry and one other has used it to present a whole new ammonia free pathway.

 

I am attempting to adress a serious issue involving significant property damage and loss of life. Personally attacking me, based on how I have, on many occasions embarassed a super moderator at SC (latest example, apparently not having seen/read a preparation for NCl3, he claims its sinks because of its density, but it reportedly floats in an NH4Cl solution, an important point I noted earlier) who thinks, because he has a longer career as a practicing organic (not inorganic) chemist, he is a de facto authority. I wish him the best nevertheless.

Edited June 9, 2013 by ajkoer

[John Cuthber]

At or near pH 7 nitrous acid (which has a pKa of about 3) will be about 99.99 % dissociated

So, of the bugger all nitrous acid present, almost all is not available.

We are now talking about sub part per billion concentrations of nitrous acid- difficult to detect or measure.

And you are saying that they cause explosions.

 

Are you sure you are serious?

 

 

 

". Sciencemadness (in spite of its name) refuses to acknowledge that there is a rare event, in spite of reported pressure eruptions in the media."

Simply not true.

Nobody has said the events don't happen. They just say that your "explanations" are absurd.

 

"If anyone has new theories, please present them,"

I did: hydrogen, unburned fuel gas from the torch , bacterially produced methane.

 

"but claiming that all the incidents and investigations thereof, are all nonsense is really closed minded,"

It would be closed minded to say that all explanations are nonsense.

But saying that your explanations are nonsense is just good science.

 

"Personally attacking me, based on how I have, on many occasions embarassed a super moderator at SC who thinks, because he has a longer career as a practicing organic (not inorganic) chemist isn't a basis for a scientific assessment of my arguments."

Where did that come from?

You seem not to have noticed.

I'm the one who is pointing out your mistakes and dreams.

I'm not, and I never was, a mod here (or on any other forum).

 

 

"I am attempting to adress a serious issue involving significant property damage and loss of life."

Start by learning some science.

Edited June 9, 2013 by John Cuthber

[ajkoer]

John: Lets list what you do accept (please correct me) on these large water storage tanks. Lets restrict the water to either drinking water or existing in a somewhat vented acquarium setting.

 

1. Explosion of a volatile gas from sparks, or open flame, or possibly on heating in a closed vessel from the sun.

 

2. Gas pressure eruptions are apparently occurring.

 

3. The water at some prior point has been treated (Cl2, NH2Cl or aeration).

 

4. The water has varying mineral content, Sulfur, H2S, CH4, CO2 level, bacteria levels, free NH2Cl or Chlorine levels, organic matter (per filtering levels) and associated ammonia from decay and the like.

 

5. The level of gases, organic material, ... could vary based on temperature (time of year).

 

6. The structural composition of the tank and its age may be significant. For example, zinc plated iron or non-metallic.

 

7. The only applicable chemistry relates to the one of very dilute solutions and limited change in temperature, or do you accept that chemically reactive gases can accumulate producing local concentrations varying from time to time.

 

Now the last point is important as to expanding the horizon as to the chemistry that may be at play here.

 

By the way, there is no 'my chemistry' here, as I have given, for the most part, peer reviewed published work. Of course, the applicability is an open question as the actual conditions are not precisely known and apparently vary with the seasons and local water minerals, water treatment processes, type of storage vessel access to venting, etc., and more work on showing how the reactions come about probably has to be done.

 

Further complicating the topic is the, at times, advanced nature of some of the peered reviewed work that may be applicable, the borderline quackery of the topic (close to exploding water), and my prior history of maintaining the purity of the science (over making friends, brown nosing, etc) and worst of all, being right on occasion.

 

As far as my errors at SC, what was rejected previously was my assertions on the role of metals, or more precisely Cu, and as I proposed in this thread, its applicability also to Zinc. Believe me, I miss the fact that a prior investigation into an incident actually does cited Zinc lining in a refurbished water tank as a factor, else I would have made the connection originally with the cited research on Copper oxidation of ammonia. So, Elementcollector, why don't you go back to Sciencesquirrel and tell him the truth, there a 1938 documented investigation producing corroborating evidence to part of my theory, involving the ongoing loss of human lives and loss of property? Better idea yet, you re-introduce it? I need no recognition, I already have 2 advanced degrees (MS, to be precise with enough credits for a pH in one), or someone telling me I was right. There is no apparent answer out there, or some of the media would be citing something, and not the caption 'mystery'. I would gladly combine, citing source, any suggested paths for investigation in a report to the OSHA. By the way, just writing a report to the OSHA is probably not enough to get any actual funding for a study to effect preventive measures. The media may well be needed to shine the spotlight on rare event incidents.

Edited June 9, 2013 by ajkoer