Homos Vs. Hetros..again

[atinymonkey]

Maybe the case studies weren't done well enough. I was listening to talk radio one day. A woman called up. She said she grew up with 2 mothers' date=' and it was the most terrible experiance. She was treated like garbage in school and subjected to terrible harrasment. Kids would gang up on her, etc. Not to mention the psychology involved, "Why do I have 2 mums, I'm different and Inferior." You get the idea.

[/quote']

 

I've spoken to a number of people who suffered gross mental, physical and sexual abuse over the course of childhood. The experience was far worse than a bit of name calling at school, or the shock of teenage rebellion. Both parents are always heterosexual, so I guess following your logic we should ban parenthood altogether.

 

If it were me, I would have told all my teachers that my parents were dead. I would die first rather than be seen with them.

 

Honestly, I suspect you would still love your dad no matter who he loved. Even if it was another man.

[Sayonara]

So the question is what rules should gays and lesbians adhere to.

The same ones as everybody else.

 

 

Personally, I think they should have the same contract rights of union as the straight married couples do. They should be allowed to live together in peace without the laws bearing down on them.

Absolutely agree. You could probably drop the "personally", in fact, because there's no reason why it should be considered an opinion.

 

 

1...NO ADOPTIONS of any kind. Kids should have a real mother and real father. PERIOD. Want to adopt?.....adopt a pet.

Some sort of justification would be nice.

 

 

2...NO showing off affection in restaurants. Geez...think of the kids again. Wait till you get home.

Special pleading, and really quite offensive.

 

 

3...OK to gay clubs. Police should treat it like any other club or bar.

Afaik they do. Is there some sort of current problem with gay clubs that needs to be addressed?

 

 

4...Insurance, spousal rights etc should be allowed.......in peace.

Agree.

 

 

What I do know is that the gays and lesbians go out of there way to push their way into thinking they can be a true married couple as defined by whatever is holy.

Some do, some don't. They aren't a special section of the population all sharing the same brain; they're as diverse as any other community.

 

 

 

Maybe the case studies weren't done well enough. I was listening to talk radio one day. A woman called up. She said she grew up with 2 mothers, and it was the most terrible experiance. She was treated like garbage in school and subjected to terrible harrasment. Kids would gang up on her, etc. Not to mention the psychology involved, "Why do I have 2 mums, I'm different and Inferior." You get the idea.

Are you suggesting that a study of gay parents needs to have a 100% shiny happy glossy result in order to come to any sort of favourable result, and that one bad experience will mean they "fail"?

 

Because if so, then you need to apply the same criteria to any study of heterosexual parents, and now nobody is allowed to adopt. And if not, then one anecdotal example of a disgruntled child really means nothing to this debate. Hence the need for studies.

 

 

I don't oppose the idea that gay couples can adopt, I just think further studies should be done before making these sorts of conclusions. Everybody will react to a situation differently and unless you're careful, there could be serious problems in the long run.

Agree.

 

Although "no gays can adopt until we've run studies on children adopted by gay couples" is obviously not going to work, and if society wants to remain democratic then people are just going to have to get over it for the time being.

 

 

To say there won't be any problems is foolish, but I doubt those problems will be a direct result of some sort of defecit in gay parent's abilities. More likely they'll be a consequence of social discrimination.

Very incisive. We've had this debate before, and that was a major point.

 

 

If it were me, I would have told all my teachers that my parents were dead. I would die first rather than be seen with them.

That says more about you than it does about them (allowing for the fact that they're hypothetical, of course).

[JohnB]

There is only one area where I have concerns with gay adoption.

 

How do two males explain to their adopted daughter about the changes of puberty? The reverse is also true of the male child of a lesbian couple.

 

As a male I can read all the books I want to on the subject, but as I can't experience it, I can never know what a girl goes through. Just as a woman cannot know what a boy goes through at that time.

 

Any time I've asked this question, the usual reply is that they would get a friend of the relevent sex to explain things. But isn't the argument that a homosexual couple are just as well equipped as a heterosexual couple to raise children? To shuffle parental responsibilities onto a third party seems to negate this idea.

 

Please note, I am not referring to the ability of a homosexual couple to raise a child in a loving and caring fashion. It is my firm belief that a homosexual couple are just as likely to raise a child well as a heterosexual couple are. It's just the "mechanics" of the situation I'm concerned with.

 

I will add that statistics in Oz show that male children of a one parent family are 3 times more likely to get in trouble with the police. As in most one parent families the child is with the mother, this is put down to a lack of strong, positive, male role model for the child. Would the same reasoning not apply to a lesbian couple? I'm not saying it does, just asking the question. Is there any research in this area?

(Also, in my personal experience, most lesbians and bi girls are actually far hotter, on average, than your average straight female. But that could just be me...)

No, it's not just you.

 

As to the kissing in public thing. I'm straight, totally. Seeing two guys kiss makes me queasy in the stomach. However, I'm also violently allergic to crustacea, so seeing someone eat crab also makes me feel queasy. (I actually have to leave the room.) And as I wouldn't dream of asking a person not to eat crab, I don't see how I can complain about the other either.

 

And yes, I have gay friends of both sexes.

[atinymonkey]

To be fair, I don't know many parents who still feel the need to have the 'changes during puberty' talk. Those that do need to find a better school for the offspring, or appreciate how embarrassing the talk is.

[Sayonara]

Any time I've asked this question, the usual reply is that they would get a friend of the relevent sex to explain things.

Many (and I really do mean many) heterosexual parents explain poorly, or ask someone else to do it (esp. a godparent), so I don't see why homosexuals should be held to some golden standard that isn't likewise being pushed onto anyone else.

 

 

But isn't the argument that a homosexual couple are just as well equipped as a heterosexual couple to raise children? To shuffle parental responsibilities onto a third party seems to negate this idea.

No, the argument has to be that they are not as well-equipped.

 

The default position is that everyone has the right to be a parent, and that every child has the right to a parent. Society doesn't force anyone else to defend their rights before they can act on them, in a game to which the rules are being made up on the spot, and this is no different.

[coquina]

There is only one area where I have concerns with gay adoption.

 

How do two males explain to their adopted daughter about the changes of puberty? The reverse is also true of the male child of a lesbian couple.

 

They have to deal with it the same way a single or widowed parent of an opposite sex child has to. Of course, the adoption agency places the children, maybe they wouldn't be likely to place an opposite sex child in the home.

 

In the case of same sex parents and children, I would hope (and expect) that the gay parents would not try to force their lifestyle on the child, but would allow the child to choose his/her own preference, and support them, what ever it was.

[Aardvark]

Studies have shown very well that there is no damage or negative effect at all caused by being raised by gay parents. Ergo' date=' there is no logical basis for that rule.

 

 

 

Unless you support the same rule for heterosexual couples, the proposal is biased and discriminatory?

[/quote']

 

Which studies are you refering to concerning gay parents? As far as i am aware this is not a settled area so i think you may be overstating your case.

 

On a slighty different note, there is nothing wrong with discrimination or bias as such. Discrimination or bias can be applied against bad and unsuitable things. For instance i am biased and discriminate against rotting food as opposed to fresh food. What matters is whether discrimination and bias can be reasonably justified.

[Bettina]

1...NO ADOPTIONS of any kind. Kids should have a real mother and real father. PERIOD. Want to adopt?.....adopt a pet.

 

 

Some sort of justification would be nice.

 

Ok....forgetting the school embarassment for every year of your life, trying to hide while sitting in church with two dads holding hands, the ridicule and staring, not having any friends over because their real parents object, how about this from personal experience.

 

I have no mother so when I was 12, I had some "female problems". There was no way I could "show" my dad what I was talking about. I hid a lot of stuff for months and without getting into details, dad caught on and brought me to the women who lives across the street. I also found out then that he signed papers to make them my guardians if anything should happen to him. She and I talked for a long time and I understood and felt better. I also communicate with my dads "female friend" now and then when I need to. She's nice and I like her.

 

When your a girl, and you need to talk, life without a mother is awful. I would have given half my life to have a real mother, and although I want them to be able to lead a good life, Gay couples are NOT normal and I will never change my opinion about what I said.

 

P.S. Yes, I would have still loved them because they would have loved me but your all thinking of your own personal pleasure and not the kids your trying to raise.

 

Bettina

[Sayonara]

Right, so why can't gay adoptive parents do what your dad did?

[Bettina]

I know your way smarter than I am, and I'm going to lose this debate, but having to bring your daughter to a "Normal family" for something that should have been an internal affair smarts of being in the wrong environment to begin with.

 

All due respect

Bettina

[Verusamore]

I don't think being gay comes ONLY from the beginning but may possibly be ( would that mean Freud was right ).

 

sayo ,

Right, so why can't gay adoptive parents do what your dad did?

Because it is impossible to understand every moment on what her dad has experienced to make him a good parent , why not clone A.Einstein & raise those those children to be just like him -- the point being is that you cannot raise the child to attain the same exact qualities ...

[Mokele]

Afaik they do. Is there some sort of current problem with gay clubs that needs to be addressed?

 

Actually, there are still instances in which gay clubs are treated differently by cops (singled out for checks of underage drinking more often, etc). I recall one annecdote I heard about a lesbian strip club across the street from the regular strip club. Guess which one got busted by cops for every tiny infraction of the ill-defined rules, and which never got touched?

 

However, the situation *is* better than it was 30 years ago, by a huge margin. Generally, this sort of behavior by police only occurs in intolerant areas (such as much of the Southern US).

 

Ok....forgetting the school embarassment for every year of your life, trying to hide while sitting in church with two dads holding hands, the ridicule and staring, not having any friends over because their real parents object, how about this from personal experience.

 

I went through exactly that.

 

But wait, I'm the product of a 'normal', mixed-sex, non-divorced, nuclear family. How did this happen? Answer: because I'm a nerd.

 

*Everyone* gets teased, some worse than others, and it's for the most arbitrary of things. If that was enough to render people unfit parents, we'd ban marriages of smart people (kids will be nerds) and mixed-race couples (kids get teased for that, too).

 

The solution to the problem is for the schools to exercise some control over their students, not to punish the targets of such bullying.

 

P.S. Yes, I would have still loved them because they would have loved me but your all thinking of your own personal pleasure and not the kids your trying to raise.

 

By that logic, divorce should be illegal.

 

Because it is impossible to understand every moment on what her dad has experienced to make him a good parent , why not clone A.Einstein & raise those those children to be just like him -- the point being is that you cannot raise the child to attain the same exact qualities ...

 

I think the point is that the option is there, not that all gay parents would take it. If the option is there, then the good gay parents will take it. That the bad don't take it no more impugns the capabilities of the whole group than the failures of bad heterosexual parents impugn the capabilities of *that* whole group.

 

What makes a parent good or bad is a lot of things, but sexuality has not been shown to play any role in that, nor is there any reason to assume it would. As such, there's no reason to expect gay parents to substantially differ from straight ones. Just like with straight parents, you have good and bad.

 

But, let's not forget that they don't just hand over kids to anyone for adoption, so that selection process means that gays who wind up adopting are more likely to be good parents, simply because the bad ones (or at least the worst ones) were denied adoption.

 

------

 

Oh, and let's not forget one thing: A gay couple cannot have "accidents". Every child would be wanted. And you wouldn't have couples who're only together because one got knocked up. For a gay couple, children are presaged by long discussions about it and lots of thought, as opposed to being presaged by 'Ooops, the condom broke.'

 

Mokele

[Phi for All]

I think expecting everything to be "normal" with your life will lead to:

1. A rude awakening

2. Constant disappointment

3. Rampant boredom

 

Expecting your parents to live up to your expectations of "normal" will also lead to the above, along with bitterness and resentment. How old do you have to be to understand that your parents have to play with the cards they're dealt and must simply make the best of them?

[Bettina]

Ok....forgetting the school embarassment for every year of your life, trying to hide while sitting in church with two dads holding hands, the ridicule and staring, not having any friends over because their real parents object, how about this from personal experience.

I went through exactly that.

But wait, I'm the product of a 'normal', mixed-sex, non-divorced, nuclear family. How did this happen? Answer: because I'm a nerd.

You had two dads holding hands?

 

I think expecting everything to be "normal" with your life will lead to:

1. A rude awakening

2. Constant disappointment

3. Rampant boredom

 

Expecting your parents to live up to your expectations of "normal" will also lead to the above, along with bitterness and resentment. How old do you have to be to understand that your parents have to play with the cards they're dealt and must simply make the best of them?

 

As a child growing up I expect to have a real mother and father, or a divorced and remarried pair, or even just a father or just a mother, or even be adopted. All these are morally normal. I don't expect to grow up with two dads and no mother. Those people you claim as "normal" didn't play the cards they were dealt. They chose them.

There are so many NORMAL couples praying and hoping to adopt, I find it disgusting that they would place a girl or boy with gay or lesbian couple.

Sorry....I don't want to offend anyone but it's just not right, and if it were up to me I would make it a law.

 

Geez, I would give you everything else.

 

Bettina

[ecoli]

It's not up to you to decide what's normal or not. Why should we discriminate against gays?

[Phi for All]

Those people you claim as "normal" didn't play the cards they were dealt. They chose them.

I didn't claim them as normal. I'm merely trying to point out that normal is subjective, and your idea of normal is bound to clash with that of many others.

 

And when it comes to emotional feelings, if you are attracted to the same sex, then it's not really your choice to force yourself to be attracted to the opposite sex. Try to imagine what it would be like if someone told you you couldn't be attracted to the younger man you mentioned earlier, but you had to be attracted to someone else who just disgusted you, not because they were gross but just because you couldn't imagine being intimate with them.

 

Expect life and others to always be your idea of normal and you'll always be disappointed.

[Mokele]

All these are morally normal.

 

Why should anyone else be forced to live according to your conception of what's moral or normal?

 

It's called "Freedom".

 

Those people you claim as "normal" didn't play the cards they were dealt. They chose them.

 

Factually incorrect. No person choses to be gay. No competent psychologist supports the notion that it's a choice. No individual with an informed viewpoint thinks it's a choice.

 

Furthermore, I know from direct, 1st person experience, that which gender (or both) you are attracted to is not a choice.

 

There are so many NORMAL couples praying and hoping to adopt, I find it disgusting that they would place a girl or boy with gay or lesbian couple.

 

Factually incorrect. There are many, MANY more children in need of adoption than there are parents trying to adopt. Gay parents adopting will not take kids away from straight couples.

 

I don't want to offend anyone

 

Then try having views not based on nothing more than imposing your obsolete moral standards on others.

 

if it were up to me I would make it a law.

 

Those who would legislate their morality on others are the truest enemies of freedom.

 

Mokele

[Phi for All]

Those who would legislate their morality on others are the truest enemies of freedom.

 

Mokele

I'm embroidering that on the black armband I'll be wearing to the inauguration tomorrow.

[AL]

What is the proper way to raise a child? I don't view child-raising as an exact, quantitative science. I view it as an art, and there's more than one way to do it right. Some parents believe in spanking, others regard it as abuse. Whatever works for you, do it. Children have varied personalities that it'd probably be impossible to apply a single one-size-fits-all formula for parenting. Some kids are easy-going and others require nothing short of boot camp to put them in their place.

 

Also, my parents never taught me anything about puberty, yet I didn't freak out or become confused when it happened. My parents are very much conservative when it comes to sex, so I suspect they avoided the topic of sexual development because they felt awkward about it. Had my parents been homosexual, maybe they would've been less uptight enough to actually talk to me about these things.

[Sayonara]

I know your way smarter than I am, and I'm going to lose this debate, but having to bring your daughter to a "Normal family" for something that should have been an internal affair smarts of being in the wrong environment to begin with.

What does that have to do with the suitability of [specifically] homosexuals as adoptive parents?

 

If you want to show that homosexuals are less deserving of parenthood than heterosexuals, you need to show how things will be different, not how they can be the same.

 

 

Because it is impossible to understand every moment on what her dad has experienced to make him a good parent , why not clone A.Einstein & raise those those children to be just like him -- the point being is that you cannot raise the child to attain the same exact qualities ...

That made no sense as a reply to my question.

 

 

As a child growing up I expect to have a real mother and father, or a divorced and remarried pair, or even just a father or just a mother, or even be adopted. All these are morally normal. I don't expect to grow up with two dads and no mother. Those people you claim as "normal" didn't play the cards they were dealt. They chose them.

You can expect whatever you like, but nobody chooses their parents.

 

If you think that two same-sex parents are not morally normal, then you must think of them as either morally abnormal, or immoral. Since biology is self-evidently amoralistic, this view needs to be justified if it is going to be used as an argument.

 

 

There are so many NORMAL couples praying and hoping to adopt, I find it disgusting that they would place a girl or boy with gay or lesbian couple.

You have yet to show how gay couples are any less capable or deserving in terms of being parents, so that can only be seen as discrimination. The use of the word "disgusting" is suggestive of greater issues, which are yours.

 

 

Sorry....I don't want to offend anyone but it's just not right, and if it were up to me I would make it a law.

Show that it's not right.

 

You couldn't make it a law, because random "I don't like it" reasoning from one person just doesn't wash.

[Verusamore]

Right, so why can't gay adoptive parents do what your dad[/b'] did?

I don't see how you didn't understand my reply ,afterall I did reply my answer to be basically stated as;

you cannot raise the child to attain the same exact qualities ...

 

Can anyone else tell me if they have problems understanding this ,I think I answered this quite clearly .

[Sayonara]

I am asking why her dad (or any other straight parent/s, adoptive, biological, divorced, married - whatever) can refer his child to someone else, but gay parents can't.

 

Unless what you mean to say is not the same as what you actually typed, you did not answer that question.

[Bettina]

I am asking why her dad (or any other straight parent/s' date=' adoptive, biological, divorced, married - whatever) can refer his child to someone else, but gay parents can't.

 

Unless what you mean to say is not the same as what you actually typed, you did not answer that question.[/quote']

 

I don't know if your testing me, but I thought I answered the question. Either way, I'm beginning to realize that your moral values are much different that mine are and so this question will never arrive at an answer that will satisfy both of us.

 

1. A normal family with a male dad and female mother can deal with a child asking any question even if its "show and tell". It remains a family matter like it should.

 

2..My case was not normal. I have no mom. Well, I have, but she left us when I was 10 because I was the accident she couldn't deal with, but thats another story. My dad at 64 years old and had NO CHOICE but to seek help. If he remarries which I hope he does, I will be comfortable again having a real family. If he turns gay and marries a man, I would live across the street.

 

3..Gay male parents with a daughter would -ALWAYS- have to seek help because their family is not normal, never will be, and horrible for the daughter. Believe me, the daughter will never "show and tell" with either dad.

 

 

Bettina

Please don't ban me

[ecoli]

2..My case was not normal. I have no mom. Well' date=' I have, but she left us when I was 10 because I was the accident she couldn't deal with, but thats another story. My dad at 64 years old and had NO CHOICE but to seek help. If he remarries which I hope he does, I will be comfortable again having a real family. If he turns gay and marries a man, I would live across the street.

[/quote']

 

Would your father abandon you because of who you were? From what you've told us, I don't think so. Why would you leave your dad, just because he decided he was gay. He would still be the same person, why do you consider this a factor that would casue you to stop loving him?

[Phi for All]

I don't know if your testing me, but I thought I answered the question. Either way, I'm beginning to realize that your moral values are much different that mine are and so this question will never arrive at an answer that will satisfy both of us.

Imo, what's in question here is why you think it's wrong for a same sex couple to raise children. You say it's wrong but you don't really give relevance to that statement. You speak as though a same sex couple will be blatantly having sex in front of their child and I think that's an erroneous fundamental attribute many people burden gay couples with. A hetero couple can could just as easily display such behavior. Displays of affection, however, like kissing and hugging between any parental couple are different and show stability to a child and help them feel safe.

 

1. A normal family with a male dad and female mother can deal with a child asking any question even if its "show and tell". It remains a family matter like it should.

I'm not sure what you mean by "It remains a family matter like it should". As a parent with a daughter myself, I know there are certain things my child will not come to me to learn, nor will she go to my wife. I hope she will seek out someone she trusts for this information. Solitude and ignorance in personal matters can only be bad.

 

2..My case was not normal. I have no mom. Well, I have, but she left us when I was 10 because I was the accident she couldn't deal with, but thats another story. My dad at 64 years old and had NO CHOICE but to seek help. If he remarries which I hope he does, I will be comfortable again having a real family. If he turns gay and marries a man, I would live across the street.

I'm glad you understand he had NO CHOICE. This is what i meant earlier by playing the cards you're dealt. Some kids in your situation, in an effort to have a "normal" family, would have insisted he remarry immediately no matter who the woman was, possibly insuring a miserable existense for poor dad.

 

3..Gay male parents with a daughter would -ALWAYS- have to seek help because their family is not normal, never will be, and horrible for the daughter. Believe me, the daughter will never "show and tell" with either dad.

Again, you're making assumptions for every daughter based on your personal feelings. I think many young women would prefer the compassion a gay male father(s) would have for them over a woman who felt her daughter was "the accident she couldn't deal with". Btw, imo, you're mom made the biggest mistake a person could ever make, and I'll bet she regrets it with every fiber of her being.

 

 

Bettina

Please don't ban me

SFN has banned many people over the years, but none for expressing honest feelings and opinions in a sincere, courteous manner such as yours.