Self Help via Cognitive Behavioral Therapy

[EdEarl]

As more has been learned about neurology, including brain plasticity and feedback mechanisms, cognitive behavioral therapy appears as a practical means for anyone to improve their state of mind.

presents some of the evidence related to mindful meditation and some other techniques.

 

[John Cuthber]

There was a talk on "mindfulness" at work a while back. They cited the benefits that had been shown in various studies.

At they end they invited questions.

I asked what the reference intervention had been in those studies.

The speaker looked a bit put-out and eventually admitted that there wasn't one. A few people in the audience started laughing.

 

So, they were happy to stand up and speak about a subject and say how good it is, even though they knew that there was no valid evidence.

 

In effect they had repeatedly done an experiment with no "control" population.

 

These people are psychologists and understand experimental technique.

You have to ask yourself why they deliberately chose not to do the experiments properly, knowing that this was almost certainly going to bias the outcome in favour of a positive (though meaningless) result.

If it works, why not do a proper test on it, rather than publishing badly done ones?

 

.

[EdEarl]

Here are reports/studies with a control group.

 

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/11/meditations-positive-residual-effects/

 

https://ischool.uw.edu/news/2012/06/levy-and-wobbrocks-research-shows-meditation-helps-workers-multitask

 

http://www.academia.edu/536073/Short-Term_Training_in_Loving-Kindness_Meditation_Produces_a_State_but_not_a_Trait_Alteration_of_Attention

 

http://www.psych.uncc.edu/pagoolka/acm2009.pdf

Edited June 24, 2013 by EdEarl

[John Cuthber]

From the 3rd one

"All participants were college students at a small, midwest-ern university. Participants in the meditation group were students in a psychology course, led by the first author (CJM), in which this research was conducted. They were research assistants for this project. Enrollment in this course determined the sample sizes."

"meditators were aware that if they did adhere to the training program, and a significant effect were found,they may be co-authors on a manuscript."

 

Well, that looks like a biassed sample group to me, so the experiment is, at best, questionable. It leads me to wonder why they chose to do that.

To be fair, they give an answer

"This design was motivated by the intensive time commitment required of meditators and served to incentiv-ize adherence to the training regimen."

So, it's a self- selected group rather than a randomly chose one. Does it look legit to you?

 

 

The 4th is interesting,

Looking at table 1 they compare the effects of "sham" meditation with "real" meditation.

Apparently, real meditation raises systolic blood pressure while sham meditation reduces it.

Both reduce diastolic blood pressure, but the sham version works better.

Both raise heart rate: the sham version has a stronger effect.

There's no statistically significant difference between the two interventions for the other two parameters which are measured.

 

In most cases the sham treatment had more effect.

 

And the paper's conclusion?

"A brief meditation intervention was effective in reducing overall negative mood including depression, tension, fatigue, confusion, anxiety, and lowering HR when compared to the sham meditation and control groups. Sham meditation was effective in significantly reducing state anxiety and tension.

Comparisons with a sham meditation group are an effective way of controlling for the demand characteristics associated with meditation practice in experimental trials. This study demonstrated the efficacy of brief mindful training above and beyond the demand characteristics of a sham meditation condition"

 

They claim it reduces 6 parameters ("depression, tension, fatigue, confusion, anxiety, and lowering HR") when they only measured 5, and two of those are not what they are citing.

 

They say "A brief meditation intervention was effective in ... lowering HR when compared to the sham meditation and control groups"

If you look at the data for the first session (fig 3) you see that the reductions in mean blood pressure from the control group, real and sham groups are

93.1, 93.6 and 92.9% respectively.

i.e. the "real" meditation gives rise to the smallest drop in blood pressure (though there's no statistically significant difference- all three interventions are really indistinguishable.

 

At least they admit that "Sham meditation was effective in significantly reducing state anxiety and tension."

and they say "This study demonstrated the efficacy of brief mindful training above and beyond the demand characteristics of a sham meditation condition""

Let's say that they have not demonstrated it very convincingly.

[EdEarl]

There are many more studies on meditation with control groups, they show a variety of results. I used Google searching for the following:

"meditation control group site:edu"

 

There are also links like the following:

http://www.sais-jhu.edu/events/2013-04-28-100000-2013-04-28-120000/yoga-and-meditation-class

http://wellness.med.miami.edu/x177.xml

http://www.med.umich.edu/cvc/health/classes_stress.html

 

I am biased from my personal experience. Others may make up their own mind.

[John Cuthber]

"There are many more studies on meditation with control groups, they show a variety of results."

So does roulette.

[EdEarl]

"There are many more studies on meditation with control groups, they show a variety of results."

So does roulette.

Your point?

[MonDie]

I've worked on something that might be called a meditative state. I focus on repressing a variety of types of thoughts. The mental state becomes stronger and more immediate with each rehearsal. It is useful as a sort of thought interference. It puts a stop to certain thought patterns, e.g. libidinous thoughts, anxious thoughts, wandering thoughts. However, it tends to be hit or miss for certain matters.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[EdEarl]

The mental state becomes stronger and more immediate with each rehearsal.

Yes, "Practice makes perfect."

 

I focus on repressing a variety of types of thoughts.

Humor can help. Imagine she has a bit of spinach stuck between two teeth.

 

it tends to be hit or miss

For sure, if one thing fails try another; there are many useful techniques.

[John Cuthber]

Your point?

My point is that real science is repeatable.

 

Is "mindfulness" based on a clear set of principles which permit the creation of a testable hypothesis?

Or is it a quasi religion?

Edited June 24, 2013 by John Cuthber

[studiot]

My point is that real science is repeatable.

 

Always?

 

Suppose you worked for CSI and you could only collect enough sample for one DNA test, or one fingerprint.

 

How valid is that forensic science?

Or say you are a phlebotomist taking blood from an elderly patient for an INR test in order to adjust the warfarin dose.

What is good science if you sample is undersized, due to the difficulty of collection?

 

Sometimes (quite often actually) you have to work with what you've got.

You can't exercise full control as you might wish to.

Edited June 24, 2013 by studiot

[iNow]

I'm curious why cognitive behavioral therapy is being referenced here, instead of just discussing the potential positive impact of meditation on levels of stress and anxiety. The two seem independent and unrelated in my mind, as CBT is more about extinguishing phobias through exposure therapy and dealing with various traumas.

 

As to John's criticisms, I'd make a more general point in response. Essentially any time you sit down to relax and attempt to clear your mind of the various things competing for your attention and breathe slowly and thoughtfully you will reduce stress, as measured by cortisol (and similar compounds), blood pressure, and pulse rate. Even if you don't buy into the underlying (and frankly mostly nonsensical) mysticism that often accompanies meditation, there's still something to be said about restfulness, stillness, and relaxing breathing, all of which tend to be common in meditative practices.

Edited June 24, 2013 by iNow

[EdEarl]

My point is that real science is repeatable.

 

Is "mindfulness" based on a clear set of principles which permit the creation of a testable hypothesis?

Or is it a quasi religion?

Physical sciences are repeatable, until measurement inaccuracies make doubt. What is the size of an electron?

 

Social science and medical experiments provide measurement challenges, and often cause doubt when various experiments give contradictory results. Often, a preponderance of evidence is accepted, even if a some experiments do not give consistent results. Even if meditation works due to a placebo effect, it cannot harm a person as poorly tested medicine can (e.g., Thalidomide).

 

In your opinion, is medicine a quasi religion?

 

IMO neither meditation nor medicine are quasi religions.

 

I'm curious why cognitive behavioral therapy is being referenced here

CBT and meditation use a persons thoughts to change their state of mind and/or change their brain via its plasticity. IMO they are very much related. But, you make a valid point about the primary use of CBT vs meditation.

[MonDie]

EdEarl, I hope I didn't somehow accidentally offend you.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Mondays Assignment: Die

[EdEarl]

EdEarl, I hope I didn't somehow accidentally offend you.

Not at all. My replies to you were serious with a little stress relieving humor. I hope I did not accidentally offend you.

[MonDie]

Not at all. My replies to you were serious with a little stress relieving humor. I hope I did not accidentally offend you.

 

No, you didn't offend me, although it may look like you were trying to after I edited the post, removing most of its content.

 

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/04/%E2%80%98turn-down-the-volume%E2%80%99/

It reminds of the time when I meditated while hearing the clock ticking from the other room. It soon became obvious that the ticking was changing volume depending on my attention toward it. If I recall correctly, it was louder when I wasn't attending to it.

[Alexey Kononovich]

Several improvements of Self Help via Cognitive Behavioral Therapy

 

The concept of the conditioned reflex or skill is familiar to everyone. We also know that skill is formed by multiple reiteration of a type of behavioral reaction during any times. This effect has been studied in details, so we will not concentrate on it.

Now let's turn to our memory. How to memorize a poem? How to remember the state capital or a word in a foreign language? A common method is to repeat. As it is said – «reiteration is mother of learning». And as we have mentioned above, we will call a skill something that was formed by behavior type reiteration.

Therefore

Knowledge = Skill = Repeat * Behavior

Psychosis is illogical knowledge. There a lot of discussions what has to be considered as illogical so let’s assume illogic as index, with the value everyone can choose himself.

We obtain

Psychosis = Illogic * Knowledge = Illogic * Skill = Illogic * (Repeat * Type of behavior)

or

Psychosis = Illogic * (Repeat * Type of behavior)

Interpreting
the results we see that the reason of psychosis is a reiteration of illogical behavior.

The reason of reiteration of illogical behavior is often a high level of discomfort felt by people. If there is an idea that brings relief, people will scroll through it many times, regardless of degree of absurdity. This effect is observed in all, without exception, the people I'm meeting, so we can assume that it is common for most

Example:

Here is a simple example that demonstrates an effective strategy for the treatment of psychosis.

Let's say a
person believes that 5 multiplied by 5 is 40.

Lat's call this the "multiplication table delirium". If a person repeats that 5x5 = 25 big number of times, then when a situation arises to multiply 5x5, he counts in right way. I mean the problem is solved, the person is healthy. As you know, at the moment there are no pills that guarantee replacement of 40 for 25 in conditional-reflex chain
5x5 = 40.

Mentioned above have been checked in practice.

For people who had never contacted with psychiatry, the above-mentioned examples will lead to sense that it can be read in any textbook that describes the basics of Psychiatry. If it is about you, you can easily check it too. Just ask questions to any psychiatrist or look up in any textbook.

psychosis pathophysiology was found

[EdEarl]

Alexey, your post agrees with other things I have read, including the case of John Forbes Nash, Jr, a famous mathematician, who suffered from a "dream-like delusional hypotheses" (his words), and who learned to reject his delusions. A movie and documentary were made about his life.

 

Learning to cope is natural and as you say, everyone learns and knows to study to improve their learning experience. However, few people appreciate the breadth and scope of things that can be learned. Even if a person has some understanding of how teaching themselves can benefit their phobias, neuroses, habits, depression, etc., many (perhaps most) will not make the effort necessary to cure themselves.

 

Welcome to SFN

[John Cuthber]

"Even if meditation works due to a placebo effect, it cannot harm a person as poorly tested medicine can (e.g., Thalidomide)."

Nope,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

 

 

"What is good science if you sample is undersized, due to the difficulty of collection?"

Well, the question was raised in connection with people doing research on humans.

Are humans rare?

If not then the choice of a population that's too small to give valid repeatable data is a poor choice.

But that choice is deliberate- it's part of the experimental design. You can design the experiment to give a valid outcome for a given level of effect and probability by choosing the right sample size.

 

So, if someone does an experiment with too few participants to get a valid, repeatable outcome, then they are not doing science at all.

And, if they decide to do such an"experiment" knowing that the outcome will be invalid because of things like self section or an inadequate sample size, then you have to question their motivation.

 

Why are they setting up an experiment which they know will give a bogus result?

Is it incompetence or dishonesty?

[EdEarl]

Live an learn, I had not previously head of the nocebo effect.

 

Living is dangerous. Water is necessary for life, but it can also kill. It seems almost absurd to consider swallowing a glass of water as dangerous, but a person suffering from dysphagia can become dehydrated.

 

My Google search for an estimate of how many people meditate worldwide did not yield a reliable number, perhaps there are a billion.

 

My Google search for an estimate of how many people were harmed by meditation found nothing. I found neither news story nor estimated number of people harmed.

 

Granted, neither search was exhaustive. I merely spent about the same length of time doing each one, about 3 minutes.

 

John, you have expressed serious concern about meditation. I can accept it, but I do not share it.

 

People will make up their own mind about the value or harm of meditation.

[Alexey Kononovich]

"Even if meditation works due to a placebo effect, it cannot harm a person as poorly tested medicine can (e.g., Thalidomide)."

Nope,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

 

Sorry for my English, i study it now, im ukrainian mathematician. We described effect of pla-cebo and no-cebo.

 

Pla-cebo really appears. Please remember, that people believe in power of used medicines

 

No-cebo really appears too. Appears because of efforts of sence removal. Usual way of solving tasks consists an aim, that can be remembered any moment. At first we found how to heal psychosis and didnt understand how to treat neurosis. Problem was in no-cebo effect. When patient trying to bring himself to no-pain, he can not clearly imagine no-pain, because of pain. Nay patients with high willpower can increase their pain to very high lvl because of hight number of offers iteration. Whatever all people stop soon or later.

 

We described by math many sings, like intuition, logic, sexuality and others. Official publication will be 2-3 monther later till know due to official experiments. If you want to understend how effectively use our mind, we have to turn to the very beginning of Permanent Happiness Theory.

 

Ill be happy to answer your questions

 

Welcome to SFN

 

Thanks a lot. I'll do my best Official researches will last 2-3 monthes, im trying to speed up the process. Westing a time is a westing of lifes, it's very very inefficieofnt wait 3 monthes more. Russians ( in Ukraine we have no psy forums. Furthermore my native language is russion ) began understand, but it's to slowly. May be your people more attiduted and logic possible in a total

Edited June 28, 2013 by Alexey Kononovich

[EdEarl]

Russians ( in Ukraine we have no psy forums. Furthermore my native language is russion ) began understand, but it's to slowly. May be your people more attiduted and logic possible in a total

Some people in the US are working in the area of positive feedback to improve and heal themselves, but not many. I think eastern cultures with a long tradition of meditation are most advanced in this kind of thinking.

[John Cuthber]

"My Google search for an estimate of how many people were harmed by meditation found nothing."

It wouldn't.

However I invite you to consider how much time is spent (in my view, at least largely, wasted) by these billions of people who meditate rather than do something truly beneficial.

 

That loss of productivity is harm.

Imagine that they chose to work in a soup kitchen instead.

Then more people would be looked after.

Those who were not looked after, because people were meditating, rather than helping in the kitchen, were harmed by meditation.

 

Obviously, no search is going to find that but if your estimate is correct (and I guess it's close enough) then billions of hours of effort is being wasted.

Isn't that shameful?

[EdEarl]

Those who were not looked after, because people were meditating, rather than helping in the kitchen, were harmed by meditation.

 

Obviously, no search is going to find that but if your estimate is correct (and I guess it's close enough) then billions of hours of effort is being wasted.

Isn't that shameful?

Well, on a scale of 1-10 I would consider people who waste time beating their spouses, abusing their children, mugging strangers, etc. 10 compared to meditating as 1. And, people who waste time watching TV, listening to music, visiting art galleries, etc. as 1.

 

On the other hand, if one considers that sleep seems to be a waste of time, but must not be, because sleep deprivation is bad for us. Is it really possible to consider relaxation of any kind a waste of time and shameful, whether it is meditation, listening to music, or reading Frankenstein? Although, I will grant that people who never do anything beneficial for others and spend all their time gaming, watching TV, reading Frankenstein, or whatever may be wasting their lives. But, I should refrain from such a judgement.

 

Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged!