Possibility for Mass Transport System could take us up a gear.

[Acme]

Jerico

Minding that Mike's idea is completely unfounded and that he needs to actually build the oscillating device he describes and see it fail instead of arguing continually back-and-forth on the theory of it, there is a kernel of truth in the Tesla business.

 

Tesla's oscillator was an air driven cylinder & piston job and used a clever arrangement of valves/ports to operate. Beyond that, the Jericho affair has him attaching said oscillator to a New York building with said oscillator set to oscillate at the resonant frequency of the building and after some short time the entire block was [said to be] rumbling. Whether true or no, this is no more or less than the same principle by which a wine glass may be shattered by a singer or other tone generator. If I recall correctly Nikola bragged he could shatter the Earth given enough time. Tesla also is said to have used an oscillator attached to a platform to generate the so-called brown noise and had no less than Mark Twain mount the thing and in short order Mark crapped his drawers.

 

The moral of the story is.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Jerico

.

.

I see, " and the walls came tumbling down "

Very good .

 

 

Minding that Mike's idea is completely unfounded and that he needs to actually build the oscillating device he describes and see it fail instead of arguing continually back-and-forth on the theory of it, there is a kernel of truth in the Tesla business.Tesla's oscillator was an air driven cylinder & piston job and used a clever arrangement of valves/ports to operate. Beyond that, the Jericho affair has him attaching said oscillator to a New York building with said oscillator set to oscillate at the resonant frequency of the building and after some short time the entire block was [said to be] rumbling. Whether true or no, this is no more or less than the same principle by which a wine glass may be shattered by a singer or other tone generator. If I recall correctly Nikola bragged he could shatter the Earth given enough time. Tesla also is said to have used an oscillator attached to a platform to generate the so-called brown noise and had no less than Mark Twain mount the thing and in short order Mark crapped his drawers. :lol:The moral of the story is.

.

.

Fascinating ! I knew I was on to something big. I will have to watch out for what actually resonates with 40 kHz. . ? Perhaps my brain! I will fall to bits when I switch my machine on ?

 

 

I have built the device in the 1970's/ 1980's with positive feedback magnetising AC coils and Amplifier, around a double pronged giant tuning fork . This worked in anti phase each prong. It was pretty dramatic , but impossible to make force measurements. The second device was ,in university labs at slow oscillation of a single pronged ( swinging prong ) there measurements were taken and recorded with a strain detector. There were detectable traces on a graph recorder. I have not yet built the 40 kHz at 4 inch displacement oscillating anti phase tuning fork style arrangement . That is a lot more difficult !

 

Ps a tuning fork naturally oscillates in anti phase , that is the root of operation of this system . This is a naturally occurring phenomenon . Which is why I keep bringing up the subject of electrons . I believe they follow this same natural type of counter oscillation when in pairs of electrons ( + and - ) spin .

 

 

From PM

 

Mike, thanks for your reply. I actually thought of making use of the centrifugal forces a while ago, when I was writing my work about why a top remains erect etc and I initially thought I could use the centrifugal forces as a climbing device but I did not think it through and went on to with my work. But I sort of understand what you're trying to do now. If something feels lighter, because of centrifugal forces, surely it can have practical uses.

 

But your Tuning fork oscillator sounds like how a tadpole moves. But your idea sounds interesting and I understand what you're trying to do as I have used a similar idea to explain why I think radiation exits a body in packets. And I modeled this body as a hollow pendulum with a hole in it. So I see what you're trying to. Did you build any devices or have any initial drawings of how this is supposed to work? "

 

" My initial thoughts are that one can use two pendulums or oscillators so that the device can remain stable when the oscillations begin. The next would be see whether this generates any lift. - Have you done any preliminary designs on this? Or preliminary tests on it? "

 

.

 

. See comments to Acme ,in this post , above , of my previous attempts to build and test the proposed device . I will attempt to find my notes and drawings and post selected parts .

 

I will look forward to further possible discussions around " the counter oscillating masses in a partial arc condition , and how the centrifugal forces thus developed . " show themselves . ( or don't )

 

MAIN PRINCIPLE OF OPERATION .

 

..

 

 

CONVERSION OF STRAIGHT LINE INERTIA

TO ORBITAL FOR COMPONENTS OF DEVICE

 

.

 

MIKE

Edited March 24, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

.

.

I have not yet built the 40 kHz at 4 inch displacement oscillating anti phase tuning fork style arrangement . That is a lot more difficult !

Ps a tuning fork naturally oscillates in anti phase , that is the root of operation of this system . This is a naturally occurring phenomenon . Which is why I keep bringing up the subject of electrons . I believe they follow this same natural type of counter oscillation when in pairs of electrons ( + and - ) spin . .

 

Professional Strawman said

 

Sent Today, 02:00 AM

Mike, I was watching some Prof Laithwaite's videos and one of them caught my attention, where a board of aluminum [i think] oscillates instead of going in one direction, when he changed the wiring, in his linear motor. Could you perhaps arch the linear motor so that the oscillations can produce centrifugal forces? Whether this generates a push should be an interesting experiment.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

.

.

I have not yet built the 40 kHz at 4 inch displacement oscillating anti phase tuning fork style arrangement . That is a lot more difficult !

Ps a tuning fork naturally oscillates in anti phase , that is the root of operation of this system . This is a naturally occurring phenomenon . Which is why I keep bringing up the subject of electrons . I believe they follow this same natural type of counter oscillation when in pairs of electrons ( + and - ) spin . .

 

 

But didn't you say that this scales up? That is, 20 KHz at 4 inches should give half as much lift? Or 20 kHz at 2 inches would give 1/4?

 

All we would need is an obvious measurement that the weight of something decreased. Full levitation is not required as proof of concept. Show us a 10% reduction in weight on a scale for starters.

[Strange]

Ps a tuning fork naturally oscillates in anti phase , that is the root of operation of this system . This is a naturally occurring phenomenon

 

How much should the vibration of a tuning fork reduce its weight? If we know that, then we can tell you whether that is easy to measure or not.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

How much should the vibration of a tuning fork reduce its weight? If we know that, then we can tell you whether that is easy to measure or not.

I have done the math. But only for the one I am interested in : namely with prongs the length of the radius of the earth. * Set up with a vibration frequency of 40 kHz , and a peak amplitude of 4 inches. ( each prong ) . Then the wight loss is enough to overcome Gravity .

 

( that is by my calculations )

 

Mike

 

* rather than having prongs the radius of the earth , one can make a linked sprung system that has a partial section of arc support system ( > 8" ). following the circumferential line of the earth ( nearly strait but not quite ) this is easier ,

Edited March 25, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Acme]

I have done the math. But only for the one I am interested in : namely with prongs the length of the radius of the earth. Set up with a vibration frequency of 40 kHz , and a peak amplitude of 4 inches. ( each prong ) . Then the wight loss is enough to overcome Gravity .

( that is by my calculations )

Mike

Your calculations aside, your described fork is a physical impossibility. It's just plain pwrong.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Your calculations aside, your described fork is a physical impossibility. It's just plain pwrong.

See footnote on post 206

 

Mike

[Strange]

I have done the math. But only for the one I am interested in : namely with prongs the length of the radius of the earth.

 

So how about doing the calculations for a real tuning fork so we can see if the idea is testable.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

So how about doing the calculations for a real tuning fork so we can see if the idea is testable.

What frequency , say an audible frequency like 1000 hz ( 1 kilohertz ) ? Shall we say the portion of the tuning fork mainly doing the moving ( the prong ends , say last 1 cm ) ? Each prong end say 25 grams ? (0.025 Kgm ) Length of a prong , namely radius of partial arc 5 cm ( which = 0.05 metre )

 

We could say the total forward displacement of one fork prong is say ( 1 mm ) . It does this displacement 4 times every hz or cycle . So in 1 second the prong end will travel a distance of say

1000 hz x 4 x 1 mm/sec . So V = 4 000mm/sec = 4 meters/ sec

 

Centrifugal force ( for each prong ) = m x v squared / r = 0.025 x 4 x4 / 0.05 newtons = 8 newtons .

 

This is per prong .

 

The joining of the two prongs of a tuning fork tend to be a curvy 'Y' You might have to measure this as strain in the joining area of the fork's two prongs .

 

To get it to continuously ring you have to magnetically couple one prong to a coil receiver , feed it through an amplifier and back through an electromagnet to the opposite prong. Ensuring the anti phase is arranged as tuning forks only work in anti phase.

 

Note A

 

I would suppose , that the reason the small tuning fork works , is not because of any centripetal force caused by gravity generating a reactive centrifugal force as in the machine I am proposing, but because each prong is acting and reacting against the other fork through the ' Y' link at their base. Hence while one prong is going to the left , the other will be going to the right . So this system will run irrelevant of any effect of gravity. In the case of the large couplet , I am proposing the similar counter oscillation will be set up , but at a curvature radius = radius of earth , and of movement velocity RMS 17,700 mph . Under these conditions gravity will be a significant force centripetally acting on the oscillating masses, and thus will invoke counter centrifugal forces equivalent but opposite to gravity.

 

Mike

Edited March 26, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Acme]

See footnote on post 206

 

Mike

Linked sprung prongs? Yea, that'll work.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Linked sprung prongs? Yea, that'll work.

Hi Acme . I have edited a Note A above in the last post . Hopefully explaining the operation .

 

Mike

[Strange]

Centrifugal force ( for each prong ) = m x v squared / r = 0.025 x 4 x4 / 0.05 newtons = 8 newtons .

 

I am not going to question your assumptions or calculations as, after all, this is your theory. Have you thought about the result you have obtained?

 

What you are saying is that an everyday object which weighs slightly over 50 grams will reduce in weight by about 800 grams when used. Why do you think no one has noticed that?

 

To get it to continuously ring you have to magnetically couple one prong to a coil receiver , feed it through an amplifier and back through an electromagnet to the opposite prong. Ensuring the anti phase is arranged as tuning forks only work in anti phase.

 

I don't think that is necessary. Partly because tuning forks are designed to ring for a reasonable time. But also because a massive effect like this could be detected in a fraction of a second. If it existed...

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

What you are saying is that an everyday object which weighs slightly over 50 grams will reduce in weight by about 800 grams when used. Why do you think no one has noticed that?

 

..

Well I have certainly noticed tremendous forces at work , in arc tracing , moving mass. Often these are held tight within machine manufactured discs, cogs, flywheels . Always remembering that a flywheel is no more than a single prong of a tuning fork , repeated many times about a circle. And in one direction only.

 

These forces are there , away from the centre , centrifugal . But locked into a wheel , say flywheel, unnoticed by many .

 

One lesson I was conducting , physics lesson , with children behind a perspective screen for safety.

A small 3" x 1.5" electric motor , I squeezed on a plastic propeller with a plastic ring about its circumference.

I ran it up to full revs .

 

It shattered ,having partially shot toward the ceiling , centrifugal force had blown it apart. Ripped it to shreds.

I am sure jet engine designers must take these forces into account during design, of these rotating devices.

 

Partial arc is merely one small portion of a circular device but moving in two directions over a small angle of rotation.

 

Mike

I don't think that is necessary. Partly because tuning forks are designed to ring for a reasonable time. But also because a massive effect like this could be detected in a fraction of a second. If it existed...

.

I think, like the flywheel , the developed force , produced by centrifugal action , thus in this case ' away from the prong base ' not quite central . But effectively the centrifugal force ,reacting to the centripetal force of the top mass of the prong , wishing to move with inertia in a strait line is being pulled into a partial arc of a circle about the base of the prong. The reaction to this pull towards the centre of the base of the prong , is the reactive centrifugal force away from the base of the prong. This could only be measured by a strain gauge in the base of one of the prong, or the base of both prongs

 

It is this oscillating strain or force , at the base of one prong is transferred to the other prong , and so to induce the oscillating action on the other prong ( in anti phase ) .

 

In this condition the force remains in a closed system , as with the gyroscope .

 

The secret is to release the force out of the closed system . I believe this occurs when the Velocity is sufficient .

 

When you scale up to Earth radius and motion of mass to 17,700 mph then

 

The oscillating masses I believe will balance the force of gravity

 

Mike

Edited March 26, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

Too much waffle and not enough rigour. No data.

 

I would suggest you get hold of a tuning fork, a block of wood and some kitchen scales.

 

Drill a hole in the wood so it acts as a stand for the tuning fork. Put the tuning for in the stand and put the whole thing on the scales. Make sure the fork is not vibrating and record the weight.

 

Now take the fork out, strike it against a solid surface and put it back in the wooden stand. Record the weight.

 

Repeat a few times to check for sources of errors. Repeat with different tuning forks and scales to eliminate other sources of error.

 

Report the results here.

 

You might want to wear some protective clothing because if the effect were as large as you claim, as soon as you put the vibrating tuning fork in the stand it will shoot up into the air and bounce of the ceiling.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Too much waffle and not enough rigour. No data.

 

I would suggest you get hold of a tuning fork, a block of wood and some kitchen scales.

 

Drill a hole in the wood so it acts as a stand for the tuning fork. Put the tuning for in the stand and put the whole thing on the scales. Make sure the fork is not vibrating and record the weight.

 

Now take the fork out, strike it against a solid surface and put it back in the wooden stand. Record the weight.

 

Repeat a few times to check for sources of errors. Repeat with different tuning forks and scales to eliminate other sources of error.

 

Report the results here.

 

You might want to wear some protective clothing because if the effect were as large as you claim, as soon as you put the vibrating tuning fork in the stand it will shoot up into the air and bounce of the ceiling.

I appreciate what you are saying Strange . I have in fact done precisely , or nearly similar to what you say , as I am sure you can imagine . ( back in the 1970' s ) . It is not quite as easy as you imagine or describe , at least then it was not possible , as there were no sensitive digital measuring devices then . So I built a large tuning fork and fed it electro magnetically , as I previously described , fed with / through an amplifier . It bounced around all over the place , I am sure you can imagine . The vibrations hitting

Everything .

 

I got involved with the computer PC boon , and ended up making cables for computers in a manufacturing business. Even built myself a lab on the factory to do R.&D on centrifugal project , while cables were manufactured , never got time . Marriage, children ,( four daughters ) bringing them up , grown up , moved away then back to university , where I made it my final year project . " In search of Centrifugal forces . " theory and experiment . Teaching for 10 years , And here we are today 35 or so years later . Wow life isn't half full .

 

Mike

Edited March 26, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

But didn't you say that this scales up? That is, 20 KHz at 4 inches should give half as much lift? Or 20 kHz at 2 inches would give 1/4?

 

All we would need is an obvious measurement that the weight of something decreased. Full levitation is not required as proof of concept. Show us a 10% reduction in weight on a scale for starters.

 

I do not remember saying about scaling . However I have given that some thought , seeing as you mention it . Also Strange has also said why don't I make a small version and test .

 

I think , the small local tuning fork would not work in response to gravity , but rather in response to tension in the structure. My investigations have shown me the two prongs and joining ' Y ' are a closed system . Although the base can be applied to a sounding board to give vibrations for measurements of comparative sounds , it works well on its own in your soft fingers . It is clear the force for movement comes from a tap on a blocks somewhere . Once this initial energy input is introduced the and forces are started by the tensions in the prong sideways movement and tension . The restorative action is induced by this tension , which produces waves and tensions to travel to the other prong . Whereby the system stabilises into an oscillating , resonant system . Gravity would have little if no effect at this level of velocity and energy .

A driven system could be made by stimulating one prong with the resonant frequency . This would then spread to both prongs and quickly ,if not instantly into anti phase resonance . Here still though the system is not working with gravity , but with tension in the metal and sprung return tension in the extended prong. So I believe it would settle down to a balanced , closed system . Similarly with quarks and the strong force with different distances having totally different effects.

 

It is when the system proposed is driven so hard with a massive amount of energy , so as to work at 40 kHz 4inch max displacement ., each prong working in anti phase . Having a simulated radius of the radius of the earth . Then prong end speed ( 17,000mph could be driven to 40khz, ( then the mass causing centripetal ( towards the centre of the earth ) as it reacts with gravity kicks in . And the reactive centrifugal force causes the devices to float due to speed of movement being bent by gravity centripetally gaining the centrifugal reaction to the inertia change , thus overcoming gravity.

 

The thing I would say . This sort of different responses at different orders of magnitude , is oft quoted when discussing . (Say a magnet sticking a sign or toy figure to a fridge ) being stronger than gravity. Yet away from the fridge gravity is the major player everywhere . ( Nearly .)

 

I do not think you could invoke this effect at orders of magnitude this different in velocity and radius .

 

 

(A). I think what is happening here is that at small scale internal tensions are what influences the system and the system balances internally. ( would drop to the floor )

 

(B) . In the large scale system external gravity and internal oscillating masses dominate the system and the system is balanced externally by working against gravity . ( can do nothing else but stay in orbit 8 foot above the ground when run up to the figures previously quoted ..40 kHz , 4" displacement .. RMS 17,700mph )

 

Mike

Edited March 26, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Professional Strawman]

A nice video about centrifugal forces.

 

[swansont]

 

It is when the system proposed is driven so hard with a massive amount of energy , so as to work at 40 kHz 4inch max displacement ., each prong working in anti phase . Having a simulated radius of the radius of the earth . Then prong end speed ( 17,000mph could be driven to 40khz, ( then the mass causing centripetal ( towards the centre of the earth ) as it reacts with gravity kicks in . And the reactive centrifugal force causes the devices to float due to speed of movement being bent by gravity centripetally gaining the centrifugal reaction to the inertia change , thus overcoming gravity.

 

The thing I would say . This sort of different responses at different orders of magnitude , is oft quoted when discussing . (Say a magnet sticking a sign or toy figure to a fridge ) being stronger than gravity. Yet away from the fridge gravity is the major player everywhere . ( Nearly .)

 

I do not think you could invoke this effect at orders of magnitude this different in velocity and radius .

 

 

This is why you need the model with the maths. So you can quantify the effect and see how big the claimed response would be.

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

 

Mike

 

Over a year ago this thread was reopened to allow you to post the workings of your model. To date I see nothing but handwaving, baseless assertions, chummy banter etc.; it is time to put up or shut up.

 

Your next post includes "the science bit" - ie a set of assumptions, the equations which make up the model, the interactions/results that can be observed, and any emprical evidence - or I will lock the thread.

 

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

!

Moderator Note

 

Mike

 

Over a year ago this thread was reopened to allow you to post the workings of your model. To date I see nothing but handwaving, baseless assertions, chummy banter etc.; it is time to put up or shut up.

 

Your next post includes "the science bit" - ie a set of assumptions, the equations which make up the model, the interactions/results that can be observed, and any emprical evidence - or I will lock the thread.

 

I trust I can do this in bits , otherwise it will become a sea of reading that no one will read .

So assuming that is o.k. First

 

The ASSUMPTIONS:-

 

1) That the total physics that normally apply to a satellite usually travelling in orbit say 500 miles up above the earth , will equally apply 10 ft above the earth surface. Be it that it is travelling very fast in near earth orbit. Thus the physics is able to apply to my device near the earth surface .

 

2) That there is no difference apart from a minor difference in radius to the speed of operation of 17,700 mph of the satellite 500 mile up to that at 10 ft above the earths surface , in principle .

 

3) That there is no difference in the physics in either of these situations if the satellite or device move in the opposite directions . The formula and effect is identical ( except for direction of flight)

 

4) That for such a device ,if the device consists of flexible masses , such that different sections of the mass are able to move at different speeds ranging like a half wave sinusoidal distribution between 0 ( zero ) and a peek value of approx 22,000 mph and back to zero , but not negative in value. that the applicable value of speed, would be as if the mass as a whole were moving at a RMS ( root mean squared ) value of 17,700 mph. Which ever direction ( forward or backward ) .

 

5) That because the near ground device is moving within the atmosphere , and clearly speeds of 17-22,000mph might seem prohibitive .we are talking of a device overall only moving 4" at either end , which if necessary can be mounted in a vacuum .

 

6) That we are not looking at lift from one orbit to a higher orbit without some other form of energy introduced to change orbit height.

 

7) That ,as can be seen in the formulae that follow that, because the masses cancel on either side of the equation ONLY the SPEED is the critical required variable condition .

 

8) That although only a reactive force which disappears when the applied force disappears , that the FORCE OF GRAVITY constitute the applied CENTRIPETAL FORCE ( applied force ), nevertheless induces a CENTRIFUGAL REACTIVE FORCE Equal and opposite to the force of gravity ,according to Newtons laws of motion.

 

9) That this induced CENTRIFUGAL FORCE is as a result of the force of gravity acting on the speeding inertial mass, trying to travel in a strait line according to Galileo's and Newton's theories of motion

 

10) That the physics is true , even if only a small section of an orbit ( partial arc ) , is completed ( namely 4" to 8" ) and then reverses to the opposite direction along the path from which it came .

 

 

 

The EQUATIONS standard for circular motion . Action and reaction .

 

1) GRAVITY acting as a Centripetal force is given by the equation namely

 

Centripetal force ( force due to gravity ). F = m g where m is the mass in kg g is the acceleration due to gravity in meters per sec per sec .

 

 

2) REACTIVE Centrifugal Force F = m v squared/ r where m is the same mass in kg , v is the instantaneous velocity and r is the radius of the circle or partial arc transcribed by the mass. In meters .Radius of Earth.

 

 

3) As the forces are described by newtons laws to be equal and opposite . Then it follows that

 

The equated equations read m g = m v squared/ r

 

 

4) as the mass m is the same on either side of the equation

 

. . Then g. = v squared/ r

 

5) Then. V = 17,700 mph Or metric equivalent

 

 

To follow :-

 

The Interactions/ OBSERVED RESULTS

 

1)

 

2)

 

3)

 

4)

 

EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE

 

1)

 

2)

 

3)

 

4)

Edited March 28, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

 

To follow

 

The EQUATIONS

 

1)

 

2)

 

3)

 

4)

 

The Interactions/ OBSERVED RESULTS

 

1)

 

2)

 

3)

 

4)

 

EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE

 

1)

 

2)

 

3)

 

4)

 

 

This is what was promised long ago. Essentially, you made no progress.

[imatfaal]

Please check the ideas of paired forces under Newton's third law. You are getting it wrong. Third law paired forces - the famous equal and opposite - do not act on the same object. The third law pair of the gravity acting on a satellite due to the earth is the gravity acting on the earth due to the satellite - it is NOT the pseudo centrifugal force.

 

!

Moderator Note

And to repeat above remark - there is nothing new in your post. I am locking thread - PM a member of staff if you have a substantive and new piece of model to add; I cannot guarantee that staff will accede to a request to reopen.