Could Einstein be wrong?

[Roy Kelly]

Now before I get tackled by every physicist in the community for dissing Einstein, let me explain: this is purely THEORY. Theoretical physics is what I specialize in and its simply a thought experiment.

Sound travels faster when it is put through a medium of greater density, I.E, sound will travel faster when it is sent through water, and even faster when sent through solids such as steel and even rocks.

From Wikipedia, "Speed of Sound" article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

"In common everyday speech, speed of sound refers to the speed of sound waves in air. However, the speed of sound varies from substance to substance. Sound travels faster in liquids and non-porous solids than it does in air. It travels about 4.3 times as fast in water (1,484 m/s), and nearly 15 times as fast in iron (5,120 m/s), than in air at 20 degrees Celsius. Sound waves in solids are composed of compression waves (just as in gases and liquids), but there is also a different type of sound wave called a shear wave, which occurs only in solids. These different types of waves in solids usually travel at different speeds, as exhibited in seismology. The speed of a compression sound wave in solids is determined by the medium's compressibility, shear modulus and density. The speed of shear waves is determined only by the solid material's shear modulus and density."

A singularity in the center of a black hole, AKA the remains of a collapsed star, has been supposedly recorded to have infinite density.

So, my question is this:

If sound travels faster when put through objects of higher density, could sound have the potential to travel as fast, or faster, than the speed of light when put through a singularity? (Ignore the vacuum of space for a second) And if so, what would this mean for the Theory of Relativity?

In order to produce informative answers to this, we would have to find the compressibility, shear modulus and, moreover, the density of a singularity. (I go on the presumption this is no easy task.) Once we find that, we simply plug that in and solve for the equation that states sound travels faster in objects with greater density.

Please feel free to elaborate or ask questions.

-Roy Kelly

[ACG52]

 

 

A singularity in the center of a black hole, AKA the remains of a collapsed star, has been supposedly recorded to have infinite density.

No singularity has ever been observed in any way. The infinite density is a result of the incompatibilities between GR and quantum mechanics, because there's no theory of quantum gravity yet.

[Roy Kelly]

No singularity has ever been observed in any way. The infinite density is a result of the incompatibilities between GR and quantum mechanics, because there's no theory of quantum gravity yet.

 

So I (or someone else) would need to come up with the theory of quantum gravity, before solving my own theory...well, this is going to take a while.

[ACG52]

Also, given that the theoretical size of the singularity is a dimensionless point, it would be hard to get any kind of timing.

[Janus]

Now before I get tackled by every physicist in the community for dissing Einstein, let me explain: this is purely THEORY. Theoretical physics is what I specialize in and its simply a thought experiment.

 

Sound travels faster when it is put through a medium of greater density, I.E, sound will travel faster when it is sent through water, and even faster when sent through solids such as steel and even rocks.

 

From Wikipedia, "Speed of Sound" article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

 

"In common everyday speech, speed of sound refers to the speed of sound waves in air. However, the speed of sound varies from substance to substance. Sound travels faster in liquids and non-porous solids than it does in air. It travels about 4.3 times as fast in water (1,484 m/s), and nearly 15 times as fast in iron (5,120 m/s), than in air at 20 degrees Celsius. Sound waves in solids are composed of compression waves (just as in gases and liquids), but there is also a different type of sound wave called a shear wave, which occurs only in solids. These different types of waves in solids usually travel at different speeds, as exhibited in seismology. The speed of a compression sound wave in solids is determined by the medium's compressibility, shear modulus and density. The speed of shear waves is determined only by the solid material's shear modulus and density."

 

A singularity in the center of a black hole, AKA the remains of a collapsed star, has been supposedly recorded to have infinite density.

 

So, my question is this:

 

If sound travels faster when put through objects of higher density, could sound have the potential to travel as fast, or faster, than the speed of light when put through a singularity? (Ignore the vacuum of space for a second) And if so, what would this mean for the Theory of Relativity?

 

In order to produce informative answers to this, we would have to find the compressibility, shear modulus and, moreover, the density of a singularity. (I go on the presumption this is no easy task.) Once we find that, we simply plug that in and solve for the equation that states sound travels faster in objects with greater density.

 

Please feel free to elaborate or ask questions.

 

-Roy Kelly

You need to look at the actual formula of how the speed of sound is effected by the density. An increase in density drives the speed of sound down not up.

 

Consider this, Lead is denser than iron, but the speed of sound in Iron is greater. In fact, wood is even less dense than lead and has a higher speed of sound.

[ajb]

...this is purely THEORY. Theoretical physics is what I specialize in and its simply a thought experiment.

This is a very interesting statment.

 

Anyway...

 

 

Certianly for any material made of the standard model particles, information could never be transmitted faster than the speed of light through the material.

 

But this is not quite what you have asked. Without really knowing how to describe a singularity your question is without a proper formulation and so no proper answer.

[Phi for All]

This is a very interesting statment.

 

My first thought too. I've never heard of anyone specializing in theoretical physics confuse a thought experiment with a theory. "This is purely theory" sounds like someone not familiar with scientific theory.

[MigL]

It is not the density but the 'stiffness' of a material that determines the speed of propagation of a disturbance or or longitudinal wave such as sound.

 

It is believed that the material which makes up neutron stars ( neutronium ? ) has an extremely high stiffness and the speed of propagation of disturbances through it is an appreciable fraction of the speed of light. Any increase in density at this point, would increase the stiffness and result in a propagation speed equal to or exceeding the speed of light.

This is of course impossible , and is one of the many arguments against the existence of stable states of matter at densities exceeding neutron star density.

 

The only possible outcome of a higher density is gravitational collapse to a possible singularity.

[benevolenthellion]

I would like to point out that science is not about being right, it is more about being the least wrong.

[ACG52]

I would like to point out that science is not about being right, it is more about being the least wrong.

No, science is about describing how the physical universe works. A hypothesis which does not correspond to physical reality is wrong. One which does, and makes verifiable predictions is more correct.

[swansont]

No, science is about describing how the physical universe works. A hypothesis which does not correspond to physical reality is wrong. One which does, and makes verifiable predictions is more correct.

 

In that sense, though, all models are wrong, since they break down at some level. The useful models work over some range, and to some level of precision. Being "least wrong" isn't a bad way of describing it, IMO.

[sheever]

not because they break down at some level but because they always look in more and more depth for the specific existing subject and to its opposite which ll give another direction to counter it.

[Delbert]

So, my question is this:

 

If sound travels faster when put through objects of higher density, could sound have the potential to travel as fast, or faster, than the speed of light when put through a singularity? (Ignore the vacuum of space for a second) And if so, what would this mean for the Theory of Relativity?

I think what happens inside or at the event horizon of a black hole is open to speculation. As for an infinite density singularity, I'm inclined to think something (unknown) comes into play before it gets to such a state - but I haven't the foggiest idea what!

 

I understand there is also time dilation the closer one gets to the event horizon, such should you or me be approach near or at the horizon (if it is even theoretically possible) I further understand we would see the outside universe running ever faster. And in contrast, to the outside universe we would be almost motionless.

 

If so, then presumably light at the even horizon, to us back here on earth, would slow almost, if not completely, to a stop.

 

As for sound, and since sound is mechanical vibrations of a material or gas, all such would presumably be crunched to a point (again, if that's possible). So how anything would 'vibrate' if there's no room to vibrate in an infinite point, I don't know. But again, what goes on inside the event horizon is probably outside our understanding of physics.