THE PHOTOSPHERE OF THE SUN

[zorro]

What is it? What processes go on?? Why does light emanate from there ?? The visible surface of the Sun. It consists of a zone in which the gaseous layers change from being completely opaque to radiation to being transparent. It is the layer from which the light we actually see (with the human eye) is emitted.

 

Speculation:

It is my speculation that it is a convective layer where Silicon-Iron-Nickel in fusion are containing the huge energies of the core layers and dispersing these energies thru the Solar storms . If so, it is kind of a volcanic slag formed by the Fusion reaching Iron conditions and in balance. If so, this is a perfect insulator for a Fusion Reactor which is generating clean power on earth.

 

The Photosphere temperatures range from only 4,600 to 7,800 dK.

 

Here is a clip of what goes on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY2n2CHMXfI

 

Lets build a reactor with a Photosphere insulation shell and use the balance energy to power a city.

Edited August 9, 2013 by zorro

[Bignose]

It is my speculation that it is a convective layer where Silicon-Iron-Nickel in fusion are containing the huge energies of the core layers and dispersing these energies thru the Solar storms.

How does this jive with an analysis of the optical spectrum of the sun which suggests that it is almost completely hydrogen & helium?

[zorro]

How does this jive with an analysis of the optical spectrum of the sun which suggests that it is almost completely hydrogen & helium?

It is true that the sun atmosphere is mostly Hydrogen and Helium. However most models of the Sun (Star) show layering of the Radiation zones to be Fusing Silicon, Nickel, and Iron.

 

 

Per http://www.theenergylibrary.com/node/644

Composition of the Sun

The Sun is mostly made up of hydrogen (about 92.1% of the number of atoms, 75% of the mass) and Helium (7.8% of the number of atoms and 25% of the mass). The other 0.1% is made up of heavier elements, mainly carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, neon, magnesium, silicon and iron.

 

In : http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/papers/thesis/frontmatter.pdf

 

....... populations is what makes the LTE approximation so attractive.

 

Using these techniques to calculate ionisation fractions and populations for

Iron, it can be seen that the Fe I population is strongly dependent on height in the

photosphere. The population is affected by both the temperature and the electron

concentration, which in turn depends on the ionisation levels of other elements. (See

figure 2-5 below.) .....

 

FE I and FE II, are statistically there in the Photosphere.

 

Since the Photosphere is a mere 100 km thick to the suns Diameter of 14,000,000 km, a thin layer of elements other than Hydrogen and Helium are there in concentrations to give the Photosphere it's distinct properties shown below.

 

Edited August 9, 2013 by zorro

[zorro]

Can fusion be contained with a <>fusion reactor??

[Ophiolite]

It is true that the sun atmosphere is mostly Hydrogen and Helium. However most models of the Sun (Star) show layering of the Radiation zones to be Fusing Silicon, Nickel, and Iron.

This is incorrect. Why do you believe this to be true?

[zorro]

This is incorrect. Why do you believe this to be true?

 

 

Where did I go wrong Oph ?? Hydrogen and Helium are sum 90+% of the sun.

[Moontanman]

Can fusion be contained with a <>fusion reactor??

 

Can fusion be contained with a <>fusion reactor??

 

Yes but it consumes more energy that it makes via fusion...

You went wrong when you said this:

 

It is true that the sun atmosphere is mostly Hydrogen and Helium. However most models of the Sun (Star) show layering of the Radiation zones to be Fusing Silicon, Nickel, and Iron.

 

 

Please show some support for this fusing of silicon, nickle, and iron and the release of energy via fusing these elements together...

[zorro]

 

 

Yes but it consumes more energy that it makes via fusion...

You went wrong when you said this:

 

 

Please show some support for this fusing of silicon, nickle, and iron and the release of energy via fusing these elements together...

 

 

Star Fusion: http://www.scienceinschool.org/print/257 ; http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast122/lectures/lec18.html

 

After Iron(AN 26) Fusion, energy is absorbed.

Edited August 13, 2013 by zorro

[imatfaal]

I think the question is whether the heavier elements (upto iron) are created within OUR sun - rather than in stars in general.

 

Sol is a lower sized main sequence star - which means its fusion is almost completely dominated by hydrogen --> helium (via various routes). You need to get heavier and hotter stars to see carbon etc formed (about 1.5 solar masses for the Carbon - Notrogen - Oxygen cycle which converts H to He) - for carbon burning you would need about 8 solar masses. All of these are rough estimates and you will get energetically unfavourable reactions - just very very rarely. On the whole Sol converts H to He.

[zorro]

I think the question is whether the heavier elements (upto iron) are created within OUR sun - rather than in stars in general.

 

Sol is a lower sized main sequence star - which means its fusion is almost completely dominated by hydrogen --> helium (via various routes). You need to get heavier and hotter stars to see carbon etc formed (about 1.5 solar masses for the Carbon - Notrogen - Oxygen cycle which converts H to He) - for carbon burning you would need about 8 solar masses. All of these are rough estimates and you will get energetically unfavourable reactions - just very very rarely. On the whole Sol converts H to He.

 

Elements up to and including Iron are made by fusion in Sol. The higher elements were made in Super Novas, larger stars or the Big Bang and arrived here by galactic consolidations. The element Staging did not occur in Hydrogen/helium "Burning" lumps, in general they formed in staging: H, He, C, O, Ne, Mg, Si, Fe . Burning is going on in Sol but its process are in the lower elements wherein fusion energy binding are so high per bind in the lower shell of the Proton nucleus. http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast122/lectures/lec18.html

 

On whole, Sol is in the H--He fusion status, true, but in the Photosphere, it appears that higher elements up to iron rules, and energy is being contracted. There seems to be not enough energy is available for its iron to fuse..

Edited August 13, 2013 by zorro

[ACG52]

 

Elements up to and including Iron are made by fusion in Sol. The higher elements were made in Super Novas, larger stars or the Big Bang and arrived here by galactic consolidations. The element Staging did not occur in Hydrogen/helium lumps, in general they formed in staging: H, He, C, O, Ne, Mg, Si, Fe .

Incorrect. The sun is too small and cool for fusion above hydrogen to helium to take place.

[zorro]

Incorrect. The sun is too small and cool for fusion above hydrogen to helium to take place.

 

Thanx, we disagree. Click on google again. There are lots of elements in the Sun.

Edited August 13, 2013 by zorro

[swansont]

 

Elements up to and including Iron are made by fusion in Sol. The higher elements were made in Super Novas, larger stars or the Big Bang and arrived here by galactic consolidations. The element Staging did not occur in Hydrogen/helium "Burning" lumps, in general they formed in staging: H, He, C, O, Ne, Mg, Si, Fe . Burning is going on in Sol but its process are in the lower elements wherein fusion energy binding are so high per bind in the lower shell of the Proton nucleus. http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast122/lectures/lec18.html

 

On whole, Sol is in the H--He fusion status, true, but in the Photosphere, it appears that higher elements up to iron rules, and energy is being contracted. There seems to be not enough energy is available for its iron to fuse..

 

Nothing you've linked to implies there is any fusion of heavier elements going on in the sun. There's iron there because there was iron present everywhere when the solar system formed.

 

Thanx, we disagree. Click on google again. There are lots of elements in the Sun.

 

Non-sequitur. There's iron on earth. Where is the fusion on earth that produced it? (hint: there isn't any)

[zorro]

Nothing you've linked to implies there is any fusion of heavier elements going on in the sun. There's iron there because there was iron present everywhere when the solar system formed.

 

Zorro: .....Offer us your ref. that the Sun has no Iron or other higher elements that it Fused itself.

 

Non-sequitur. There's iron on earth. Where is the fusion on earth that produced it? (hint: there isn't any)

Now don't go silly on us. There is no fusion on the earth's forming its materials. All but a few of Earth's materials were formed in the Solar system (Sol). Edited August 13, 2013 by swansont
quote tags

[swansont]

Please learn how to use the quote function, or if you can't (It kinda sucks, especially with the last "upgrade"), just put your response at the end. Putting your words in the quote is confusing, and makes it look like I am saying silly things. I've fixed these past couple of posts.

This is your claim that fusion is going on in the photosphere. It's your burden of proof. However, if we could do it at 7000K, we'd be doing it here on earth.

If fusion is not necessary for there to be iron on earth, why can't the iron in the sun be from the same primordial source? Though your statement implies that you are asserting terrestrial elements came from the sun, which is also contrary to what we know. The heavy elements came from some other star, which went supernova (and already had some heavier elements in it, IIRC).

[zorro]

Please learn how to use the quote function, or if you can't (It kinda sucks, especially with the last "upgrade"), just put your response at the end. Putting your words in the quote is confusing, and makes it look like I am saying silly things. I've fixed these past couple of posts.

 

This is your claim that fusion is going on in the photosphere. It's your burden of proof. However, if we could do it at 7000K, we'd be doing it here on earth.

 

If fusion is not necessary for there to be iron on earth, why can't the iron in the sun be from the same primordial source? Though your statement implies that you are asserting terrestrial elements came from the sun, which is also contrary to what we know. The heavy elements came from some other star, which went supernova (and already had some heavier elements in it, IIRC).

 

 

 

 

zorro: hello again moderato

 

1. Thanx, I am having crashes in your MultiQuote algorithm.

 

2. You must support your claim that no iron is in the Photosphere as well. At 7,000 dK (4, 000 - 10,000) the question is why can't we do it on Earth. I say let's try now and possibly surround it with a clean reactor on earth.

 

3. I agree and before claimed that most Solar System Iron and higher elements are from outside stars and the Big Bang. ....... Most earth elements come from our Milky Way's Black Hole. .... So what. ....

 

....... We are conversing the Photosphere and it's nearly iron properties and building a feasible Fusion Reactor on earth that is not H/He based fuels.

Edited August 13, 2013 by zorro

[Greg H.]

 

The core is the only region in the Sun that produces an appreciable amount of thermal energy through fusion; 99% of the power is generated within 24% of the Sun's radius, and by 30% of the radius, fusion has stopped nearly entirely.¹

 

Fusion doesn't happen outside the core of the star. The temperature and pressures are too low to maintain the cycle. The same goes for fusing Iron inside our Sun. The pressures required simply do not exist in the Sun. In order for them to exist, the Sun would have to be considerably larger (or at least far more massive) than it is now.²

 

Additionally, if the sun were currently producing its own Iron through fusion, that would mean that we would expect to see fundamentally lower amounts of hydrogen than we currently observe, as fusing hydrogen is significantly easier. You have to keep in mind that nature is inherently lazy. It won't fire up a relatively expensive process until all of the less expensive ones have been exhausted.

 

Proof of this is available in the math of the equations. The amount of energy required to power the fusion reaction you describe simply does not exist in the Sun - it's just too "light" a star to power such a reaction, photosphere or not.

 

---

1 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Core

2 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_burning_process

[swansont]

2. You must support your claim that no iron is in the Photosphere as well. At 7,000 dK (4, 000 - 10,000) the question is why can't we do it on Earth. I say let's try now and possibly surround it with a clean reactor on earth.

I am not claiming there is no iron in the photosphere. I'm saying any iron there is primordial iron and not the result of any fusion in the sun.

 

Heavier elements fuse at higher temperatures as compared to hydrogen and helium isotopes,and we can't even do that. You need to explain how fusion can occur at lower temperatures and why we can't replicate that in a self-sustainable way on earth. What are the fusion scientists doing wrong?

 

Tokamaks get the plasma up to 150 million K. Getting to the temperature and density of the photosphere is not an obstacle for terrestrial research.

 

3. I agree and before claimed that most Solar System Iron and higher elements are from outside stars and the Big Bang. ....... Most earth elements come from our Milky Way's Black Hole. .... So what. ....

 

If there is primordial iron, then the presence of iron in the photosphere is not evidence of fusion there,

 

And no, none of this comes from any black hole.

 

....... We are conversing the Photosphere and it's nearly iron properties and building a feasible Fusion Reactor on earth that is not H/He based fuels.

if, as you claim, this can happen at 7000K, why can't we replicate it on earth?

[zorro]

I am not claiming there is no iron in the photosphere. I'm saying any iron there is primordial iron and not the result of any fusion in the sun.

 

Heavier elements fuse at higher temperatures as compared to hydrogen and helium isotopes,and we can't even do that. You need to explain how fusion can occur at lower temperatures and why we can't replicate that in a self-sustainable way on earth. What are the fusion scientists doing wrong?

 

Tokamaks get the plasma up to 150 million K. Getting to the temperature and density of the photosphere is not an obstacle for terrestrial research.

 

 

If there is primordial iron, then the presence of iron in the photosphere is not evidence of fusion there,

 

And no, none of this comes from any black hole.

 

if, as you claim, this can happen at 7000K, why can't we replicate it on earth?

 

zorro in red:

 

1. We agree but I would add " a minute amount of iron is fused in the Sun" .

 

2. We agree that H/He are at higher temps. We fuse them in our H/He Weapons .

You need to explain how fusion can occur at lower temperatures.

Fusion occurs at multiple temps in the Sun. See my post #3 insert images above .

why we can't replicate that in a self-sustainable way on earth.

Good Question. Why. That is my Nobel Prize teaser.

What are the fusion scientists doing wrong?

Not listening and banking on H/He; deuterium-tritium, fusion. Their interest is Weapons and not a Electric utility.

 

3. The tokamak is making great strides in Magnetic confinement. Temps have been attained for a short half life have been achieved upward of 100 M degrees in the TJT-60U. Their Fusion is not sustained and thus not safe, practical or useable.

 

4. Agree. Not yet. ...... But since it is sustaining low temps are there it looks as though there may be a Si/Fe furnace in or near the Photosphere. It's principal interesting is confinement, insulation and stability.

 

Edited August 13, 2013 by zorro

[John Cuthber]

 

1. We agree but I would add " a minute amount of iron is fused in the Sun" .

 

2. We agree that H/He are at higher temps. We fuse them in our H/He Weapons .

You need to explain how fusion can occur at lower temperatures.

 

 

No Zorro,

You need to explain why you think that fusion to create iron can happen at lower temperatures than the fusion of H to He.

We know the Fe formation happens at high temperatures and pressures but you keep saying that it's formed in the Sun.

Well, the Sun simply isn't hot enough so you need to explain why you think it's forming iron.

 

 

(Much of the rest of what you said was also nonsense (for example, we already have weapons, but we don't have a reliable energy supply), but I'm running out of patience with pointing it out in detail.)

[swansont]

zorro in red:

 

1. We agree but I would add " a minute amount of iron is fused in the Sun" .

Yes, that's where we disagree. You have not provided evidence of this.

 

2. We agree that H/He are at higher temps. We fuse them in our H/He Weapons .

You need to explain how fusion can occur at lower temperatures.

Fusion occurs at multiple temps in the Sun. See my post #3 insert images above .

That would be a post where you in no way demonstrate that, or how, this fusion occurring.

 

why we can't replicate that in a self-sustainable way on earth.

Good Question. Why. That is my Nobel Prize teaser.

What are the fusion scientists doing wrong?

Not listening and banking on H/He; deuterium-tritium, fusion. Their interest is Weapons and not a Electric utility.

Ah, the secret formula approach. The whole point of this speculations section is that you explain this in detail, rather than keeping it a secret.

 

3. The tokamak is making great strides in Magnetic confinement. Temps have been attained for a short half life have been achieved upward of 100 M degrees in the TJT-60U. Their Fusion is not sustained and thus not safe, practical or useable.

 

4. Agree. Not yet. ...... But since it is sustaining low temps are there it looks as though there may be a Si/Fe furnace in or near the Photosphere. It's principal interesting is confinement, insulation and stability.

Again, you claim there is this fusion, but you haven't shown any evidence that your claim is true. Repetition doesn't make it true.

[zorro]

No Zorro,

You need to explain why you think that fusion to create iron can happen at lower temperatures than the fusion of H to He.

We know the Fe formation happens at high temperatures and pressures but you keep saying that it's formed in the Sun.

Well, the Sun simply isn't hot enough so you need to explain why you think it's forming iron.

 

 

(Much of the rest of what you said was also nonsense (for example), (for example, we already have weapons, but we don't have a reliable energy supply), (but I'm running out of patience with pointing it out in detail.)

You are off track here. I say that there is a minute amount of Ni / iron.... in the Sun. some in the Core some in the Photosphere. So you have badgered the point enough here. I am interested in its insulating properties ....

 

The Star Models are here in this lecture. http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/ASTR100/class21.pdf

 

What can I say. You are not reading properly. bye for now.

 

ps : where did I say this nonsence???? we already have weapons, but we don't have a reliable energy supply

Edited August 13, 2013 by zorro

[swansont]

You are off track here. I say that there is a minute amount of iron in the Sun some in the Core some in the Photosphere. So you have badgered the point enough here. I am interested in its insulating properties ....

 

You have done more than claim that iron exists, you claimed it is involved in fusion and that's why it exists. The rules demand that you present evidence of your claim.

[Greg H.]

 

zorro in red:

 

1. We agree but I would add " a minute amount of iron is fused in the Sun" .

 

2. We agree that H/He are at higher temps. We fuse them in our H/He Weapons .

You need to explain how fusion can occur at lower temperatures.

Fusion occurs at multiple temps in the Sun. See my post #3 insert images above .

why we can't replicate that in a self-sustainable way on earth.

Good Question. Why. That is my Nobel Prize teaser.

What are the fusion scientists doing wrong?

Not listening and banking on H/He; deuterium-tritium, fusion. Their interest is Weapons and not a Electric utility.

 

3. The tokamak is making great strides in Magnetic confinement. Temps have been attained for a short half life have been achieved upward of 100 M degrees in the TJT-60U. Their Fusion is not sustained and thus not safe, practical or useable.

 

4. Agree. Not yet. ...... But since it is sustaining low temps are there it looks as though there may be a Si/Fe furnace in or near the Photosphere. It's principal interesting is confinement, insulation and stability.

 

 

Please demonstrate, mathematically, how Si -> Fe fusion can occur at the low temperatures and pressures found in the Sun's photosphere given the following (at a standard optical depth of 1.0)¹:

 

 

Temperature = [math]6,533 K[/math]

Pressure = [math]1.25 \times 10^5[/math] [math]dynes/cm^2[/math]

Density = [math]3.00 \times 10^{-7}[/math] [math]g/cm^3[/math]

 

Feel free to take your time, and keep in mind that your answer must also explain why we can't fuse hydrogen, a process that takes significantly less energy, at this temperature and pressure.

 

---

1. Nieminen, T. A. (1995). Solar Line Asymmetries: Modelling the Effect of Granulation on the Solar Spectrum. Chap 2: p. 29. Retrieved on August 13, 2013 from http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/papers/thesis/chapter2_photosphere.pdf based on Holweger, H. and Müller, E. A. “The Photospheric Barium Spectrum: Solar Abundance and
   Collision Broadening of Ba II Lines by Hydrogen”, Solar Physics 39, pg 19-30 (1974).

Edited August 13, 2013 by Greg H.

[zorro]

 

 

Please demonstrate, mathematically, how Si -> Fe fusion can occur at the low temperatures and pressures found in the Sun's photosphere given the following (at a standard optical depth of 1.0)¹:

 

 

Temperature = [math]6,533 K[/math]

Pressure = [math]1.25 \times 10^5[/math] [math]dynes/cm^2[/math]

Density = [math]3.00 \times 10^{-7}[/math] [math]g/cm^3[/math]

 

Feel free to take your time, and keep in mind that your answer must also explain why we can't fuse hydrogen, a process that takes significantly less energy, at this temperature and pressure.

 

---

1. Nieminen, T. A. (1995). Solar Line Asymmetries: Modelling the Effect of Granulation on the Solar Spectrum. Chap 2: p. 29. Retrieved on August 13, 2013 from http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/papers/thesis/chapter2_photosphere.pdf based on Holweger, H. and Müller, E. A. “The Photospheric Barium Spectrum: Solar Abundance and
   Collision Broadening of Ba II Lines by Hydrogen”, Solar Physics 39, pg 19-30 (1974).

 

 

 

It isn't' a Clean calculation because many Elements in the thin mash including , .... Carbon and Sulfur with a differing half life. I have seen the Binding Energy analyses of fusion. So go ahead and give me the results of your methods using all mash combos.