Types of people

[Macroscopic]

Originally posted by Bettina

I hate him so much it hurts. I hate those lawyers and judges too.

I won't change my mind on what we should do with monsters like this.

 

I hate him too, which is why I don't think he should be killed. Why put him out of his misery when you can extend his agony? I think it would be worse for him to be in prison for the rest of his long, miserable life. Worse things than death will happen to him there. I share your hatred against him, and the idea that his life is worthless, which is why I don't think he should have the right to death. His misery should be prolonged for as long as possible.

[coquina]

He admitted the crime of the Florida girl. I want him dead and all the lawyers who try so hard to set him free should be rounded up and burned too.

I hate him so much it hurts. I hate those lawyers and judges too.

I won't change my mind on what we should do with monsters like this.

 

Our law states that everyone is entitled to a fair trial and that if they can't afford a lawyer, the court will appoint one for them. If this man has admitted guilt, a large portion of the trial process will be eliminated. However, if he didn't, and if every lawyer refused to represent him, he could not be tried and he would be set free.

 

I'm no big fan of lawyers, but there have to be public defenders.

 

Suppose someone was murdered and you just happened to walk around the corner and instant later, and the person who committed the crime had disappeared. At the same time you come into view, several witnesses exit through a store across the street. They see you and the victim, and no one else. It is going to be assumed that you committed the murder, and you are going to need a good lawyer...even if you can't afford one.

 

You are upset right now, and rightfully so. However, it is easy for someone to come to the wrong conclusion. That is why lynch mobs are a bad idea.

[Bettina]

Our law states that everyone is entitled to a fair trial and that if they can't afford a lawyer' date=' the court will appoint one for them. If this man has admitted guilt, a large portion of the trial process will be eliminated. However, if he didn't, and if every lawyer refused to represent him, he could not be tried and he would be set free.

 

I'm no big fan of lawyers, but there have to be public defenders.

 

Suppose someone was murdered and you just happened to walk around the corner and instant later, and the person who committed the crime had disappeared. At the same time you come into view, several witnesses exit through a store across the street. They see you and the victim, and no one else. It is going to be assumed that you committed the murder, and you are going to need a good lawyer...even if you can't afford one.

 

You are upset right now, and rightfully so. However, it is easy for someone to come to the wrong conclusion. That is why lynch mobs are a bad idea.[/quote']

 

Yes, I'm upset but I've come to no wrong conclusion. I just want the lawyers and analysts who go out of their way to free perpetual sex offenders like this to be punished along with him.

He did what he did because he knows he wont die. He knows lawyers will protect him. He knows the worst that will happen to him is prison. He's been there before so it will be easy for him and all the while he's in there some lawyer will be trying to get him out.

 

Like I said, shame on all of you who are against capital punishment in cases like this. I won't change my mind. I had her picture in my room cause she was like me.

 

Bettina.

[BenSon]

This "thing" was caught three times before. Once sneaking into a girls bedroom and kissing her. She was young too.

He admitted the crime of the Florida girl. I want him dead and all the lawyers who try so hard to set him free should be rounded up and burned too.

I hate him so much it hurts. I hate those lawyers and judges too.

I won't change my mind on what we should do with monsters like this.

.

 

Speaking of antisocial behaviour....anyway moving on i think you are either extremly immature or extremly stupid sorry if that sounds yarsh ...but seriously burn all the lawyers that represent him?!? Hey way stop there lets burn all the lawyers that have ever represented a murderer! Yeah that sounds like a great Idea any1 for anarchy . And oh yeah don't foreget the judges....Need i go on...

 

~Scott

[Coral Rhedd]

I hate him so much it hurts.

 

 

Why?

[Pangloss]

I think Yoda said it best:

 

Fear leads to anger.

Anger leads to hate.

Hate leads to suffering.

I sense much fear in you.

[Macroscopic]

Originally posted by BenSon

anyway moving on i think you are either extremly immature or extremly stupid

 

A strong opinion doesn't mean you are immature or stupid. Also, if you want to call someone extremely stupid, you should at least make an attempt not to look that way yourself.

 

She does have a point though. If they try to free someone who admitted to being a monster, Why should they be considered innocent? Anyone who frees a monster is responsible for any future murders. Anyone who is responsible for murder should be punished.

[Macroscopic]

Originally posted by Coral Rhedd

Why?

 

It might be linked to the fact that he is a murderer.

[BenSon]

you should at least make an attempt not to look that way yourself.

 

She does have a point though. If they try to free someone who admitted to being a monster, Why should they be considered innocent?

 

You have got to be joking did you read the rest of my post! You actually think that its neither stupid or immature to "burn" lawyers who represent murderers? I hardley think that mass murder of lawyers is a good idea or in any reasonable!?!...By the way i didn't say it was stupid to have a strong opinion I said the proposed idea that i just mentioned was stupid...

 

~Scott

[Macroscopic]

Originally posted by BenSon

You have got to be joking did you read the rest of my post!

I am not joking. I do think that burning the lawyers might be bit extreme though. However, I think they should be held accountable for all of the defendent's murders because he admitted to them. If they try to free someone who admitted to murder, then they should be given the punishment of the thing they are defending. And if that happens to be burning, then that is what they deserve.

 

{EDIT}:You didn't answer my original question: Why should they be considered innocent? That wasn't answered in the rest of your post.

 

You actually think that its neither stupid or immature to "burn" lawyers who represent murderers?

 

Yes, if the murderers admitted to the crime. It might be other things, but it is not 'extremely immature or extremely stupid'.

[coquina]

Since the defendent has admitted to the crime, the trial process is completely different. I guess he might plead not guilty by reason of insanity, but if he pleads guilty, here are the statutes from the American Bar Association:

http://www.abanet.org/crimjust/standards/guiltypleas_blk.html#1.1

 

(a) The court should not accept a plea of guilty or nolo contendere from a defendant without first addressing the defendant personally in open court and determining that the defendant understands:

 

(i) the nature and elements of the offense to which the plea is offered, and the terms and conditions of any plea agreement;

 

(ii) the maximum possible sentence on the charge, including that possible from consecutive sentences, and the mandatory minimum sentence, if any, on the charge, or any special circumstances affecting probation or release from incarceration;

 

(iii) that, if the defendant has been previously convicted of an offense and the offense to which the defendant has offered to plead is one for which a different or additional punishment is authorized by reason of the previous conviction or other factors, the fact of the previous conviction or other factors may be established after the plea, thereby subjecting the defendant to such different or additional punishment;

 

(iv) that by pleading guilty the defendant waives the right to a speedy and public trial, including the right to trial by jury; the right to insist at a trial that the prosecution establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; the right to testify at a trial and the right not to testify at a trial; the right at a trial to be confronted by the witnesses against the defendant, to present witnesses in the defendant's behalf, and to have compulsory process in securing their attendance;

 

(v) that by pleading guilty the defendant generally waives the right to file further motions in the trial court, such as motions to object to the sufficiency of the charging papers to state an offense or to evidence allegedly obtained in violation of constitutional rights; and

 

(vi) that by pleading guilty the defendant generally waives the right to appeal, except the right to appeal a motion that has been made, ruled upon and expressly reserved for appeal and the right to appeal an illegal or unauthorized sentence.

 

 

Pedofiles are one of the groups of people who are thought to be incapable rehabilitation. Maybe the guy realizes that and knows that the only way he won't act again is if he is behind bars.

 

At any rate - if he pleads guilty, the lawyers won't be trying to "get him off". They may attempt to get him a plea bargain of life without parole in exchange for a guilty plea.

[Bettina]

Speaking of antisocial behaviour....anyway moving on i think you are either extremly immature or extremly stupid sorry if that sounds yarsh ...but seriously burn all the lawyers that represent him?!? Hey way stop there lets burn all the lawyers that have ever represented a murderer! Yeah that sounds like a great Idea any1 for anarchy . And oh yeah don't foreget the judges....Need i go on...

 

~Scott

 

On one side of the courtroom there will be Jessica's father, mother, grandparents, and a lawyer of some kind. In the back of them will be neighbors, friends, and people like me who want to see justice served, who want this fiend dead, and I do want him dead. I want the parents to be in the room pulling the switch to revenge their daughters rape and murder.

 

On the other side of the courtroom, will be the hideous monster, his two lawyers, relatives, and a couple of psychiatrists. Maybe even the same lawyers who got him released last time. They will be there to try to prevent the state from killing him. They will try to prove the parents of Jessica as unfit. They will try to prove that Jessica didn't have her bedroom door locked with four padlocks. They will try to prove the police coerced the confession from him. They will try to prove that his rights were violated, etc etc.

 

In the back of those people on that side of the courtroom will be people like you. People who will hold vigils to protect him. People who will be carrying signs saying "Do not kill". People who will write their congressmen aborhing the death sentence.

 

When this is over, I want the lawyers and psychiatrists who went the extra mile to free this beast last time to stand trial themselves as being incompetent to hold a valid license. I want those responsible to pay.

 

I rather be extremely immature and extremely stupid than be like you or any other of you that think like this any day. No offense.

 

Bettina

[Bettina]

One more thing. "Registered sex offender" is something that should be abolished. These people should be in jail for life. Especially if the offense involved a minor. These people will not stop trying to do it again, until they reach a point where they have nothing to lose and murder next time.

 

Bettina

[Pangloss]

Ok, I will try again with a different quote.

 

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction....The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation."

 

Martin Luther King, Jr., Strength To Love, 1963.

[BenSon]

Firstly nice quote Pangloss

 

But there seems to be no point arguing with you two i mean you are seriously considering putting the lawyers and expert whitnesses on trial for defending this guy which I believe the law in your contry is that every1 deserves a fair trial? I mean theres just no reasoning with you.

 

On one side of the courtroom there will be Jessica's father, mother, grandparents, and a lawyer of some kind. In the back of them will be neighbors, friends, and people like me who want to see justice served, who want this fiend dead, and I do want him dead. I want the parents to be in the room pulling the switch to revenge their daughters rape and murder.

 

Don't foreget the lynch mob. Oh yeah did it ever occur to you that maybe the parents are opposed to the death sentence and are not all bloodthirsty manics like yourself.

 

They will try to prove the police coerced the confession from him. They will try to prove that his rights were violated, etc etc.

 

Yeah thats their job they are paid to do that and it is the law that they try their hardest for their client the law can't be totally one-sided...

 

In the back of those people on that side of the courtroom will be people like you. People who will hold vigils to protect him. People who will be carrying signs saying "Do not kill". People who will write their congressmen aborhing the death sentence.

 

I have never held a vigil or been in a support rally for this man or any other where the hell did you get that from!

 

I rather be extremely immature and extremely stupid than be like you or any other of you that think like this any day. No offense.

 

Oh ok thats good you remain immature and stupid and don't think like rational people who see that mass murder of lawyers and expert whitnesses as completely irrational...

 

You didn't answer my original question: Why should they be considered innocent? That wasn't answered in the rest of your post.

 

Well this is a tough one because they are doing their jobs to the letter of the law and they did not commit any crimes...

 

~Scott

[Macroscopic]

Well this is a tough one because they are doing their jobs to the letter of the law and they did not commit any crimes...

Maybe, but if it kills again, the lawyers who defended him should all be charged with solicitation of murder because they allowed it to kill.

[Bettina]

Ok' date=' I will try again with a different quote.

 

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction....The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation."

 

Martin Luther King, Jr., Strength To Love, 1963.[/quote']

 

Thats good...

 

Now we can go ahead and put up signs at the entrance of every mall.

"Its now ok to murder the young girl you raped because you won't die for it. You will go to prison and get the best care money can buy. Thats the most you have to worry about.....Have fun"

 

Bettina

[Bettina]

Firstly nice quote Pangloss

 

But there seems to be no point arguing with you two i mean you are seriously considering putting the lawyers and expert whitnesses on trial for defending this guy which I believe the law in your contry is that every1 deserves a fair trial? I mean theres just no reasoning with you.

 

 

 

Don't foreget the lynch mob. Oh yeah did it ever occur to you that maybe the parents are opposed to the death sentence and are not all bloodthirsty manics like yourself.

 

 

 

Yeah thats their job they are paid to do that and it is the law that they try their hardest for their client the law can't be totally one-sided...

 

 

 

I have never held a vigil or been in a support rally for this man or any other where the hell did you get that from!

 

 

 

Oh ok thats good you remain immature and stupid and don't think like rational people who see that mass murder of lawyers and expert whitnesses as completely irrational...

 

 

 

Well this is a tough one because they are doing their jobs to the letter of the law and they did not commit any crimes...

 

~Scott

 

You've solidified the side you sit on

 

Bettina

[BenSon]

Maybe, but if it kills again, the lawyers who defended him should all be charged with solicitation of murder because they allowed it to kill.

 

I thought i made myself perfectly clear but i'll say it again the lawyers have done nothing illegal in fact if they were to do the opposite and poorly represent him the he would get a re-trial and then the lawyers would be charged with misconduct. However i must say im glad you have dropped the prosicution of these poor lawyers down from a public burning solicitation of murder...

 

Now we can go ahead and put up signs at the entrance of every mall.

"Its now ok to murder the young girl you raped because you won't die for it. You will go to prison and get the best care money can buy. Thats the most you have to worry about.....Have fun"

 

You have clearly missed the point perhaps you are blinded by your hatered for this man.

The only reason i can think of that you would say these things and this they are reasonable is because your really upset but just take a few deep breaths and think about what your sugesting

-Kill this man

-Kill his attorneys

-Kill his expert whitnesses

-Deprive him of a fair trial

How can this make sense?!? Just read those things out lound and realise how ridiculous they are!

 

~Scott

[Coral Rhedd]

One more thing. "Registered sex offender" is something that should be abolished. These people should be in jail for life. Especially if the offense involved a minor. These people will not stop trying to do it again' date=' until they reach a point where they have nothing to lose and murder next time.

 

Bettina[/quote']

 

No the registered sex offender designation should not be abolished. It serves a useful purpose in that it allows communities to identify people who may be of danger to their citizens. It applies rather broadly to a wide variety of offenses.

 

Take indecent exposure. This is a sex offense. However I would argue that while it may lead to other rather unpleasant behaviors, it is not an offense for which any reasonable society would seek life in prison, let alone the death penalty.

 

The designation of sexual predator is also a good one and so far the U.S. Supreme court has not struck this approach down. It allows prisons and parole boards to take into account the likelihood of an offender repeating his crime one released.

 

Allow me to offer some observations:

 

1. Not all sex offenders are sociopaths.

 

2. Not all sociopaths kill.

 

3. Not all sociopaths commit sexual offenses.

 

4. Most sexual offenders violate their own, not strangers.

 

5. Most sexual offenders do not become murderers.

 

6. The violent sexual predator is a rarity rather among sex offenders.

 

7. Not all families of victims support the death penalty.

 

8. Most of the families of victims are not eager to carry out the death penalty personally.

 

9. Not all sexual offenders are pedophiles but it is difficult to rehabilitate both pedophiles and criminal sociopaths.

 

10. We happen to have an adversarial system of justice. It is required that a defendant present a defense and, in most cases, judges require defendants to have attorneys. Without a defense attorney, trials rarely take place.

 

Now Bettina, which of these facts would you like to discuss, once you have caught your breath.

 

I will ask you again the question you ignored earlier: Why do you personally hate this particular man? Or do you expend such energy hating every murderer in America? If the latter is the case, I am sad that your life will be so wasted when you could instead spend some energy contributing your time and your talents to the betterment of others.

[Coral Rhedd]

I think Yoda said it best:

 

Fear leads to anger.

Anger leads to hate.

Hate leads to suffering.

I sense much fear in you.

 

Good quote Pangloss. Sadly' date=' I could not learn so simple a lesson when I most needed to learn it. When we [b']give power[/b] to evil by hating, we only harm ourselves.

[Bettina]

No the registered sex offender designation should not be abolished. It serves a useful purpose in that it allows communities to identify people who may be of danger to their citizens. It applies rather broadly to a wide variety of offenses.

 

Take indecent exposure. This is a sex offense. However I would argue that while it may lead to other rather unpleasant behaviors' date=' it is not an offense for which any reasonable society would seek life in prison, let alone the death penalty.

 

The designation of sexual predator is also a good one and so far the U.S. Supreme court has not struck this approach down. It allows prisons and parole boards to take into account the likelihood of an offender repeating his crime one released.

 

Allow me to offer some observations:

 

1. Not all sex offenders are sociopaths.

 

2. Not all sociopaths kill.

 

3. Not all sociopaths commit sexual offenses.

 

4. Most sexual offenders violate their own, not strangers.

 

5. Most sexual offenders do not become murderers.

 

6. The violent sexual predator is a rarity rather among sex offenders.

 

7. Not all families of victims support the death penalty.

 

8. Most of the families of victims are not eager to carry out the death penalty personally.

 

9. Not all sexual offenders are pedophiles but it is difficult to rehabilitate both pedophiles and criminal sociopaths.

 

10. We happen to have an adversarial system of justice. It is required that a defendant present a defense and, in most cases, judges require defendants to have attorneys. Without a defense attorney, trials rarely take place.

 

Now Bettina, which of these [b']facts[/b] would you like to discuss, once you have caught your breath.

 

I will ask you again the question you ignored earlier: Why do you personally hate this particular man? Or do you expend such energy hating every murderer in America? If the latter is the case, I am sad that your life will be so wasted when you could instead spend some energy contributing your time and your talents to the betterment of others.

 

I will need a day to think about what you have posted. It is obvious that you know much more about sexual predators, sociopaths, sexual offenders, and families of victims, than I do, even though you didn't post sources, so please give me a day.

 

If you can't understand why I hate this man, then you need some moral training.

 

Bettina

[Coral Rhedd]

I will need a day to think about what you have posted. It is obvious that you know much more about sexual predators' date=' sociopaths, sexual offenders, and families of victims, than I do, even though you didn't post sources, so please give me a day.

 

If you can't understand why I hate this man, then you need some moral training.

 

Bettina[/quote']

 

Not all moral approaches are the same. Nor is flinging insults generally a wise move in discussion. Too much heat; too little light.

 

I can find references if you really desire them. But I have some experience in this area. I have been a victim advocate in the past and still work in advocacy for abused and neglected children. I understand the simple reason why you might hate a child molester and murderer as in "I really hate people like that." We are none of us defending such behavior. Anger at the death of an innocent child is natural. I am asking for the deeper reason of why you would be willing to pull the switch and why you would want to execute everyone involved in his defense?

 

I became a victim advocate with the encouragement of a defense attorney who became a prosecutor. Most criminal attorneys work both sides of the street. You do not understand the law and you do not understand legal ethics and you do not understand the way criminal attorneys function. I sentence you to watch reruns of "The Practice."

[BenSon]

Not all moral approaches are the same. Nor is flinging insults generally a wise move in discussion. Too much heat; too little light

 

That is too true Id like to oppologise to Bettina i shouldn't have called you stupid or immature. Also i'll just clearly state my views on this discussions to clear things up a bit.

-I dont support the death penalty

-I dont support the prosicution of those who defend murderers.

-I dont support murder crime ect in any way.

 

In true pangloss stlye i'll end this with a quote

Permanent good can never be the outcome of untruth and violence.

--Mahatma Gandhi

 

~Scott

[Phi for All]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned: what about five years from now, when the pain and anger and frustration has eased just a tiny bit? When the minds of the people involved go back over every nuance of the case, as they always do? Do you want this little girl's parents to have any doubt at all that the verdict in this case was just? Did the state only execute him because his lawyers didn't try hard enough? If the defense lawyers don't do everything they are capable of doing for their client, it could cause the victim's parents to question their own desire for execution later on.

 

Even with his confession, if he gets the legal defense the law requires, there can be no doubt the verdict was not unjust. Whatever the verdict is, I for one don't wish any more pain on these poor parents. If it's not done right, they might suffer at a later date, when they need to focus on healing.

 

I personally don't believe in capital punishment as a deterrent. It didn't stop this guy, he even confessed to the crime. Capital punishment is revenge for a terrible act, pure and simple. In this case, of course he's a monster in our eyes, but putting him to death is not going to send a message to his type of criminal. As has been stated before, they just don't think in the manner you want to hold them accountable to.