Types of people

[Pangloss]

Coral, nice posts above. This discussion has been really interesting mainly because of your input. (That's not a slight on Bettina, I just think it takes two good, strong posters on opposite sides to make a discussion interesting.)

 

 

I personally don't believe in capital punishment as a deterrent. It didn't stop this guy, he even confessed to the crime. Capital punishment is revenge for a terrible act, pure and simple. In this case, of course he's a monster in our eyes, but putting him to death is not going to send a message to his type of criminal. As has been stated before, they just don't think in the manner you want to hold them accountable to.

 

Nice post, Phi. I'll add that I've read numerous times that families of victims often say after the death penalty is applied that "it didn't bring them back" (or words to that effect).

 

I'm a big supporter of a strong legal system, personal responsibility, and harsh punishment for crimes. But I think it's been clearly shown that the death penalty is no more of a deterrent on a criminal than, say, the phrase "without possibility of parole". They know the game they're playing is an all-or-nothing deal. So the death penalty is about *us*, not them.

 

 

 

I will say that, on Bettina's "side", I totally agree with something that has been an unspoken subtext in this thread, which is that justice (at least in my country) has a lot to do with how much money you can spend on it. That's a horrible travesty and we need to continue to work hard to limit and eliminate that problem.

 

But two wrongs don't make a right. And obsession can be an incredibly dangerous and destructive emotion.

[Coral Rhedd]

Thanks for the kind words Pangloss

 

I'll add that I've read numerous times that families of victims often say after the death penalty is applied that "it didn't bring them back" (or words to that effect).

 

When I worked in victim advocacy' date=' there was a strong movement for the death penalty among these groups. I don't know if that has since changed, but it would surprise me if it had. Anger fuels a desire for revenge.

 

However, what victims' families seem to want most is closure. They want the pain to go away. And they want to be able to speak that pain over and over because it takes such a very long time to heal. That is why victim impact statements are so important. If you will remember in the OJ trial, the family of Ron Goldman very much wanted the world to see what they had lost. They hated the way the victims got lost in the process of the trial. They wanted people to remember Ron as a person.

 

I'm a big supporter of a strong legal system, personal responsibility, and harsh punishment for crimes. But I think it's been clearly shown that the death penalty is no more of a deterrent on a criminal than, say, the phrase "without possibility of parole". They know the game they're playing is an all-or-nothing deal. So the death penalty is about *us*, not them.

 

We are very much on the same page here. Your last sentence of this paragraph is so true. What we most want to believe is that the world that has turned upside down can be righted again. But it was never really right in the first place was it? That is the illusion that we carry that makes us hope that victimization cannot happen to us.

 

I will say that, on Bettina's "side", I totally agree with something that has been an unspoken subtext in this thread, which is that justice (at least in my country) has a lot to do with how much money you can spend on it. That's a horrible travesty and we need to continue to work hard to limit and eliminate that problem.

 

A current trial of a very prominent pedophile puts this to the test again. I was saddened to see that the boy who is the victim in the Michael Jackson trial has had his own very natural desire to hide his victimization turned against him as a sign of unreliability.

 

But two wrongs don't make a right. And obsession can be an incredibly dangerous and destructive emotion.

 

Dangerous to the person who feels it as well. Moving on is the best revenge.

[BenSon]

However, what victims' families seem to want most is closure. They want the pain to go away. And they want to be able to speak that pain over and over because it takes such a very long time to heal.

 

This is true but many families believe that the death of the killer will bring that closure even if afterwards it dosen't happen.

 

I know alot of people who believe the death penalty is appropriate in some cases the main argument i am met with is something alog the lines of 'they commited a murder so they should die or an eye for an eye'. To this I say do we, as a punishment rape rapists or steel from theives? no because this is not justice why should the death penalty be any diferent?

 

I think imprisonment in many cases is about rehabilitaion and realiseation for the crimes a person has commited by taking responsability for their actions. I'm interested in what you think do you think that some criminals that are facing the death penalty can be rehabilitated?

 

~Scott

[Pangloss]

However, what victims' families seem to want most is closure. They want the pain to go away. And they want to be able to speak that pain over and over because it takes such a very long time to heal. That is why victim impact statements are so important. If you will remember in the OJ trial, the family of Ron Goldman very much wanted the world to see what they had lost. They hated the way the victims got lost in the process of the trial. They wanted people to remember Ron as a person.

 

That's interesting. The "closure" concept is something I've never quite understood. You hear it a lot, but the 30-second sound bites on the evening news, and the melodramatic way Hollywood tosses the phrase around, don't really seem to explain it very well (almost to the point of turning it into a cliche).

 

Maybe it's just one of those things that can't really be understood unless you've gone through it, I don't know. But I think what you said above about wanting the pain to go away, and wanting others to feel it, are aspects of it that I hadn't considered before. You've given me something new to think about.

 

 

A current trial of a very prominent pedophile puts this to the test again. I was saddened to see that the boy who is the victim in the Michael Jackson trial has had his own very natural desire to hide his victimization turned against him as a sign of unreliability.

 

I wonder how many kids are watching this trial, seeing what a circus it is, and talking themselves out of going to their teacher or parent about what's been happening to them.

 

 

Moving on is the best revenge.

 

Nicely put.

[coquina]

That's interesting. The "closure" concept is something I've never quite understood. You hear it a lot' date=' but the 30-second sound bites on the evening news, and the melodramatic way Hollywood tosses the phrase around, don't really seem to explain it very well (almost to the point of turning it into a cliche).

 

Maybe it's just one of those things that can't really be understood unless you've gone through it, I don't know. But I think what you said above about wanting the pain to go away, and wanting others to feel it, are aspects of it that I hadn't considered before. You've given me something new to think about.

Nicely put.[/quote']

 

As a widow, I also participate in a board for widows and widowers - several of them are the spouses of murder victims, others are the spouses of repeat DUI offenders.

 

Of course, these people want the perpertrators to be caught and convicted. I haven't heard any of them say that they want the person to die for his crime. (Speaking for most of us...) We realize that no matter how dispicable a person is, he almost certainly has a family. When you kill an offender, you put his family through what we are going through - and they are not the guilty ones. (and don't assume the person is as he is because of upbringing, many have brothers and sisters who are nothng like them.)

 

In any case, for the most part "closure" is psychobabble. No outside influence is going to get us past the death of a spouse or parent or child. Each individual has to walk to road alone, examine their thoughts, and deal with them the best they can.Everyone's grief is unique to them, but in generalities there are phases (especially in sudden and unexpected death.)

 

First, you are "the deer in the headlights." You are frozen, people talk to you and you respond, but you don't remember a whole lot about it. You are on autopilot. I think that this is an evolutionary response to help us keep going on with necessary life functions. This is the period where everyone is giving you hugs and offering to help - this is the period when you are dazed and really aren't able to respond.

 

A month or so later, it really hits you. This person hasn't gone on vacation or a business trip, or summer camp - s/he is never coming back. This is when your friends are starting to move on with their own lives, and this is when you really need them. After all the hoopla has died down, Jessica's family will be forced to open her bedroom door and deal with her belongings. That may be why some parents close the door and just don't go in there. They are not preserving a shrine, they just can't bear to handle, throw away, or give away things that were important to their daughter.

 

With Jessica, her parents will be forced to relive the events surrounding their daughters death over and over, as they are asked for depositions, and eventually attend the trial. They will have to face the man who killed their daughter, not accidentally, but by intent. Everytime something new happens, it's not like the scab it pulled off, it's like the stitches are ripped from a raw wound, and one's insides come tumbling out.

 

They will feel guilt. Why didn't they hear someone enter their house? (Why didn't I hear my husband when he was dying right beside me?) Why didn't they have better locks on the door. Why, why, why? One may blame the other and their family may become broken forever.

 

In any case, there is no "closure". There is a great empty hole. Jessica's parents may walk around it, or they may be able to build a bridge over it. They may become activists Marc Klass and John Walsh, but they will never cover it in and pretend it didn't happen.

[Bettina]

If you have ever looked at my other posts, you can pretty much figure out two things about me. First, I draw a fine line between good and evil, and second, I'm a very emotional girl and an empath of the worst kind. At least thats what the doctors tell me. This is why I cry when I sing or read bad news like 9 year old Jessica. I really got sick over this.

 

I have to go sing in church in a few minutes, and when I do, I will most likely excuse myself because I just can't get her out of my mind. She was only 9 and died for the sexual pleasure of a beast. If he doesn't get the death penalty for this, then there is no justice as far as I am concerned. I really felt what she went thru the last half hour of her life.

 

With that said, I showed my father this thread last night....big mistake...

Though he agrees with most of my opinions 100%, and wants to see him put to death like I do, he was big time annoyed at my attitude toward all of you. "I didn't raise you like that....childish" etc etc. He's right. This is not me. Maybe a small part of my deep inner self, but definately not me.

 

I'm sorry to all of you for the insulting way that I posted, and I won't do it anymore. At least, I hope I don't. My dad and I have no secrets, and I show him other posts when I want his opinion, so I'll try to be good.

 

Your all OK with me and no reply is neccessary. I just wanted to say I'm sorry.

 

Bettina

[coquina]

Everybody has certain things that really hit home to them. Rather to be too sensitive than not sensitive enough. Since you feel such a need to be an advocate for young people, why don't you inquire about being a "big sister". You have posted before that your mother left your home when you were small. You would probably have a special empathy for young girls who don't have a mom for one reason or other.

[Coral Rhedd]

If you have ever looked at my other posts' date=' you can pretty much figure out two things about me. First, I draw a fine line between good and evil, and second, I'm a very emotional girl and an empath of the worst kind. At least thats what the doctors tell me. This is why I cry when I sing or read bad news like 9 year old Jessica. I really got sick over this.

 

I have to go sing in church in a few minutes, and when I do, I will most likely excuse myself because I just can't get her out of my mind. She was only 9 and died for the sexual pleasure of a beast. If he doesn't get the death penalty for this, then there is no justice as far as I am concerned. I really felt what she went thru the last half hour of her life.

 

With that said, I showed my father this thread last night....big mistake...

Though he agrees with most of my opinions 100%, and wants to see him put to death like I do, he was big time annoyed at my attitude toward all of you. "I didn't raise you like that....childish" etc etc. He's right. This is not me. Maybe a small part of my deep inner self, but definately not me.

 

I'm sorry to all of you for the insulting way that I posted, and I won't do it anymore. At least, I hope I don't. My dad and I have no secrets, and I show him other posts when I want his opinion, so I'll try to be good.

 

Your all OK with me and no reply is neccessary. I just wanted to say I'm sorry.

 

Bettina[/quote']

 

Your apology is accepted Bettina. I think it is a very mature thing to issue a public apology. I felt no anger towards you because I know your heart is in the right place.

[j_p]

People who publicly protest executions are not [usually] defending the convicted, they are protesting killing by the state.

 

If you are a Christian, you must believe there is no room for repentance after death. I think denying all opportunity for repentance and redemption is wrong.

 

I think the criminal court and prison system exists to protect people and not to exact revenge on those convicted.

 

People, including judges and jury members, can make mistakes; innocent people can be convicted.

 

You are young; you are still outraged by suffering and injustice; I am much older and I know that suffering is our lot and you, too, will suffer, though we hope not at all as severely.

 

Three other points:

 

Arguing in favor of killing people because it is cheaper that keeping them alive is appalling; arguing in favor of killing people because one was ordered to do so was very popular at Nurmeburg, and is, if possible, more appalling.

 

"An eye for an eye" was a model of liberalism and recognition of the rights of the convicted in it's day.

 

Your teacher picked the wrong case to start a debate; no-one wants to defend a child rapist.

[john5746]

People who publicly protest executions are not [usually'] defending the convicted, they are protesting killing by the state.

 

I agree.

 

If you are a Christian' date=' you must believe there is no room for repentance after death. I think denying all opportunity for repentance and redemption is wrong.[/quote']

 

They can repent before being killed - more opportunity then they give their victims. Also, she may not be a Christian.

 

I think the criminal court and prison system exists to protect people and not to exact revenge on those convicted.

 

Punishment is also applied.

 

People' date=' including judges and jury members, can make mistakes; innocent people can be convicted.[/quote']

 

People, including guards and jail employees, can make mistakes; terrible monsters can escape.

 

You are young; you are still outraged by suffering and injustice; I am much older and I know that suffering is our lot and you' date=' too, will suffer, though we hope not at all as severely.[/quote']

 

That makes us all feel better.

 

Arguing in favor of killing people because it is cheaper that keeping them alive is appalling

 

Limited resources. This is the best "cut" in expenses I can think of.

 

arguing in favor of killing people because one was ordered to do so was very popular at Nurmeburg' date=' and is, if possible, more appalling[/quote']

 

I agree.

 

"An eye for an eye" was a model of liberalism and recognition of the rights of the convicted in it's day.

 

Two eyes for an eye is better - the criminal is more guilty than his victim?

 

Your teacher picked the wrong case to start a debate; no-one wants to defend a child rapist.

 

I think it is pretty good. If you won't kill waste like this, who would you kill?

[Bettina]

Everybody has certain things that really hit home to them. Rather to be too sensitive than not sensitive enough. Since you feel such a need to be an advocate for young people, why don't you inquire about being a "big sister". You have posted before that your mother left your home when you were small. You would probably have a special empathy for young girls who don't have a mom for one reason or other.

 

Thanks Coquina, and the others too.

 

My dad never let me work, but promised I could this year. So this summer I will be working for the park department in the swimming section. My application has been approved, and I will be working with the young kids teaching them safety and basic swimming instructions. These are the little ones at the shallow end of the pool. This is something I'm going to like and its every morning during the summer.

 

Being a person with HSP, I still have a knot in my stomach about Jessica that will take me days to get over but I will, like I got over 11 year old Carly Brusha. I sang pretty good in church today without welling up too much. My male friend kept poking me in the ribs when he knew I was going over. He's the 15 year old I kind of like that sings with me at the senior home and church.

 

I'm normally a happy person 90% of the time, but when I read things like this I tend to spiral downward unless I drop it quick. What the average person feels about this crime is amplified tenfold in people like me. It only takes about 15 seconds to go from happy to not and I've fought this all my life without success. I just can't help it. Its not just people either, its animals too. My christmas singing is another.

 

This is a science forum, so I kind of believe that the posters here are people with blue hearts while mine is a very deep red thus the difference of opinions.

I think I'm wrong about this but I don't know.

 

I'm lucky to have good friends at school, a good dad, and good friends here too. Thanks for understanding and like I said I'll be good.

 

Bettina

[Coral Rhedd]

Hi Bettina,

 

I googled HSP and I was a little confused when the first site was for a Hot Soup Processor. I finally figured out that it means Highly Sensitive Person. So I went this site and took the test and guess what? I'm one too. Although many of the questions would also pick up anyone who is Inatttentive ADD, which I also am. But I don't think the DSM actually lists HSP as a mental disorder, which is good because you don't want to be mentally disordered if you can help it.

 

I do few reassured however that eventually all of us will be diagnosed. And sooner or later, we will all be medicated as well.

 

BTW, I don't think my heart is blue or I wouldn't be breathing. Wait a minute. I can't catch my breath. Oh dear . . . gaaaasp! glug!

 

Well, it was nice knowing you guys.

[BenSon]

This is a science forum, so I kind of believe that the posters here are people with blue hearts while mine is a very deep red

High numbers of red blood cells may indicate:

 

Low oxygen tension in the blood.

Congenital heart disease.

Cor pulmonale.

Pulmonary fibrosis.

Polycythemia vera.

Dehydration (such as from severe diarrhea).

Renal (kidney) disease with high erythropoietin production.

Sorry i couldn't resist

From- adam.about.com/reports

~Scott

[Macroscopic]

Arguing in favor of killing people because it is cheaper that keeping them alive is appalling

 

Killing people isn't cheaper than keeping them alive. Google 'cost of death penalty'.

 

I think the criminal court and prison system exists to protect people and not to exact revenge on those convicted.

 

I think you seriously underestimate prison. Life in prison is revenge. Life in prison is much worse than death. Bad things happen there, and you probably know that. I don't know what you've heard, but prison is not protection.

[Bettina]

I think the criminal court and prison system exists to protect people and not to exact revenge on those convicted.

Just remember' date=' the monster who killed Jessica was already in prison for attacking a little girl once before. There have been several more cases I can recall in which the child killer had a previous conviction that was child sex related. How did the prison system protect the people? Why was he let out in the first place.

I think sexual predators of children if it does not involve death, should be put away for life without parole. THATS the only way the system will protect.

People, including judges and jury members, can make mistakes; innocent people can be convicted.

I agree with you, but doctors who claim the monster is cured and can be brought back into society should be held accountable. If a doctor cut off your wrong leg, would you just pat him on the back and say "hey we all make mistakes"? I bet you wouldn't

 

I understand what your saying about innocent people and I agree with you, but new technology makes that almost nil now. If there is any doubt, then you put them away for life unless some new evidence frees them.

But if DNA, a confession, and other evidence is solid, then I want him put to death if it involves a child rape and murder.

 

Now they say that this monster sexually molested her for more than two days before killing her. Put yourself in her shoes. I still do and thats what makes me sick....literally.

 

Bettina

[Pangloss]

Define "sexual predator" please.

[Bettina]

Define "sexual predator" please.

 

Geez....you could have googled it yourself, but here is one of them out of many. Decide what state you want it from and go there.

 

http://www.ohiolaw.net/faq/Sexual_Predator.htm

 

Want my definition?

 

There are five of us (sometimes just four) who go to the mall two or three times a week. We live pretty close to each other. There are 4 girls including me, and one boy who is not the one I sing with. Were all great friends. Our parents won't let us go unless we are a group, so it works out.

 

We just hang around the center area and talk, or go into each store and look around. Usually we end up at Burger King for ice cream.

 

During our store browsing, we sometimes are aware of strangers that are more than just casual browsers. We will walk down an aisle for example and see some guy who looks at us, smiles, maybe says hello, and continues on. This is normal, and we smile back. We may see him again, he will glance at us, and go back to what he was doing. He's a normal person. So is the guy looking to buy something for his son or daughter and will ask us which one we would pick. Thats happens a lot and we help him or her out.

 

Then there are the ones who don't say anything, but will keep a prolonged eye contact with us. If you were a girl, you would know what I mean. Then that same guy will show up next to us in almost every aisle pretending he's shopping for the same stuff. We can see him staring at us every chance he can get.

 

That freaks us out. The final test is Rob (the boy) who will come between us and stare back at him in a prolonged manner. When that happens, the guy suddenly decides to walk out of the store. When we leave the mall, I'm glad Rob is with us, but still, I look at all the dark places for shadows until one of our parents pick us up.

 

Maybe that guy is just admiring us, maybe he remembers having kids that age, maybe he doesn't have kids but wishes he did....or maybe he's a predator. We don't know.

 

What I just described happens to us maybe once every three months in varying degrees, not a big deal and like I said we stay in a group. But if any of you guys are innocently doing that, I want to let you know that it freaks us big time.

 

Bettina

[Pangloss]

Yes, it was your definition that I was looking for, thanks.

 

I'm not trying to be mean -- I've been doing this a long time, and it's easy for me to take advantage, and I don't mean to do that here. But I did set a "debate trap" for you there, and you fell right into it, so I might as well go ahead and point it out, even if it feels like I'm clubbing a baby seal or something. Sorry.

 

You've just declared that anybody who looks at you in a way you disapprove of should be executed.

 

If you don't believe me, go back and review the thread. It's all there. Now I think it's pretty obvious that you didn't really mean to say that. But it is what you said.

 

My point here is just to make it clear that it's easy to get upset and declarative about something, but it's generally much harder to make just laws and a just society. Much harder.

[coquina]

When I was young, (in the 50's) there was a man in the neighborhood who was a great friend to all the kids He was a widower, his wife had died of cancer. He had a mule and a cart and he took us all on hay rides, he had marshmallow roasts and Halloween parties. In the summer, he took us all clamming and swimming. He was retired, and everyone trusted him. The parents thought he was easing his lonliness by making friends with the children. He was the most friendly, church-going, sanctimonius man you'd ever want to meet..... until the day we were clamming and he came up to me and said he'd found a big bunch of clams behind a duck blind, and would I come and help him rake them up? He didn't rape me, thank God, but I never let him get me alone again.

 

Later, I found out I was not the only person he had approached. What was weird was that kids wouldn't even talk about it to other kids. We were pretty naive, (I had not yet learned about "the facts of life"), but I knew what he did was wrong. It wasn't until we got to high school, and learned more about what was going on that we talked to each other about it. That sounds crazy, doesn't it? I guess nobody "told" because we had so much fun with the parties and all, and he never really hurt us, and we thought the other kids would be mad if we made a scene.

 

The people who look at you strangely may be thinking about weird stuff, or they may just want to scare you. What is really terrrifying is that the people who can hurt you the worst are the people you trust the most.

[Bettina]

[i']You've just declared that anybody who looks at you in a way you disapprove of should be executed.[/i]

 

I don't know what you mean about setting a trap for me and that statement you made above doesn't make sense. If you would like to discuss this you can do it without setting "traps".

 

The predator that killed Jessica was a sexual predator of the worst kind. He kidnapped her from her own bedroom and sexually tortured her for two days before killing her. She was only Nine. He was her boogeyman and I know exactly what she was feeling and thinking those two days. How much she cried. How many times she begged him to stop hurting her. How many times she called out for her father. How she tried to fight him in the end.

 

I think about her all the time especially while lying in my bed and I will feel it for weeks. I want to see him die. I want him dead and I'm proud of the way I think about him. I can't treat his punishment as lightly as you can.

 

The man in the store I mentioned is also a predator. What kind I don't know. Should he die? Of course not. Maybe he gets his kicks this way and wouldn't go any farther. Maybe he was the type Coquina met that didn't rape her or worse.... kill her. Coquina is lucky he wasn't the monster type.

 

I want to know if you think I should have trusted the man in the store? Let me know your opinion.

 

And no....I'm not mad at you at all.

 

Bettina

[john5746]

No, don't trust strangers. Even family and friends can be suspect.

 

If I were you, I would reveal as little information about yourself as possible online - where you live, name, pictures. It just isn't necessary and could cause problems.

[Pangloss]

Bettina, did you read my comment in bold above?

 

Okay, now you say he shouldn't die. Glad to hear it.

 

What should happen, then, to the man who looked at you funny in the mall?

[john5746]

What should happen' date=' then, to the man who looked at you funny in the mall?[/quote']

 

He should have 'Bubba' stare at him in that way - ya know what I mean?

[Bettina]

Bettina, did you read my comment in bold above??

Yes, but it was just a closing statement. Your main comment was in italics that I answered.

 

Okay, now you say he shouldn't die. Glad to hear it.?

What guy are we talking about. I made it clear what should be done about both types. I want the man who killed Jessica to die by the hands of her father and mother. I think I made that clear all along.

What should happen, then, to the man who looked at you funny in the mall??

I don't know. He hasn't done anything that the police could talk to him about. What do you think should be done. I will just consider him a predator type and stay away from him.

 

Bettina

[Bettina]

No' date=' don't trust strangers. Even family and friends can be suspect.

 

If I were you, I would reveal as little information about yourself as possible online - where you live, name, pictures. It just isn't necessary and could cause problems.[/quote']

 

I know, but I don't want to go thru life being afraid....just cautious which I am. My dad told me what to do when approached, and what not to do.

 

The last bunch of girls went willingly or without a struggle. I would kick him, bite him, and scream at the top of my lungs to draw attention, but I would never have gone with him.

 

If there are other girls here, just remember. If you go....you die. Take a stand right where you are and fight. If you carry a cell phone, keep the gps tracking on all the time, not just for 911 calls.

 

Bettina