Psychology of the Hunt

[Sayonara]

Ran across this thread while researching the psychology of hunting for an essay. I was struck by the reasonable tenor of these postings compared to the rabid diatribes that so often concern this topic. If it's permissible to do so in this forum, I'd like to solicit additional information or opinions.

Considering your post, you may also find this thread interesting:

http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2941

[Aardvark]

I presume modern hunting is base around a need to control. Control over the hunt, and to an extent nature itself, is provided to the individual. The achievement of set goals, like the challenge of a hunt, will help to constitute a general feeling of fulfillment in life.

 

Personally speaking, hunting isn't about controlling nature but becoming part of it.

 

We control nature in our everyday lives with cars, electric lights and all the other ammentities of civilisation. When we hunt we are getting away from that and indulging our primeval instincts, returning to a more natural state.

[Aardvark]

Er' date=' deer don't breed like rabbits. They breed in the wild in the UK and control the population themselves.

 

Just incase you fear the onset of a deer rebellion if hunting declines. [/quote']

 

Actually, where deer in Scotland are not hunted their population rises rapidly putting great strain on the rest of the ecosystem, over grazing, destroying woodland and leading to soil erosion.

 

As humans have eliminated the natural controls on their population, ie wolves, it is necessary for humans to provide an artifical control.

[Aardvark]

I don't try to do anything with the apples because of all the spraying you have to do throughout the season to make them edible, so I'm happy for the deer to have them.

 

A bit off topic, but why do you have to spray your apples to make them edible? That sounds a bit disturbing.

[Aardvark]

Ran across this thread while researching the psychology of hunting for an essay. I was struck by the reasonable tenor of these postings compared to the rabid diatribes that so often concern this topic. If it's permissible to do so in this forum' date=' I'd like to solicit additional information or opinions. For instance:

 

Reverse: The aboriginal hunters to whom modern "sportsmen" appeal hunted out of dire necessity using primitive weapons and, judging from an abundance of anthropological evidence, risked significant injury in the process. Today's hunters sit in heated blinds, attract their unsuspecting prey with sexual pheremones extracted from deer urine, and then blast the animals with high-powered rifles equipped with telescopic sights. But, what if they actually had to hunt in the manner of their distant forebears, as Reverse suggests? A 200# buck would be a formidable opponent for a human armed with knife or club (or, better still, restricted to his/her natural weapons!) [/quote']

 

Fair point, but not all hunters behave like that. Most would consider that behaviour to make the hunt meaningless. The pleasure comes from the thrill of getting into nature and feeling you have confronted it, pitted your wits against the animals skills and cunning. Of course the hunter has advantages of technology, but too much advantage would make the hunt similiar to going to an abbatoir. 'real' hunters despise the behaviour of the people who sit in comfortable hides with artifical pheremones and high powered rifles. If the animal doesn't have a 'fair' chance of getting away it isn't hunting, it's butchery.

 

YT2095: The idea of "asking permission" or "giving thanks" to the creature one has just killed and eaten derives, I think, from the animism that informed many primitive religions. However, from a modern perspective, can we assume that animals or plants have "souls?" And, even if they do, are these really appeased by such ceremonies? Would you or I feel comforted, if someone who had slain us (whether for profit or for sport) offered this kind of retroactive propitiation to our "spirits?" From everything I've seen, animals have the same reluctance to die that we do, so why would they feel any differently about their killers?

 

The supersition of giving thanks isn't necassarily believed by the hunter to actually make the animals spirit comforted, but is part of the process of developing the closer bond to nature that is an important part of hunting to many people. Responsible hunters are often the strongest conservationists as they develop a deeper understanding, on both a practical and emotional basis, to nature. Giving thanks to the creature you have killed is part of that emotional process of developing respect for the natural world.

 

On fishing: Fish don't command the same warm, fuzzy feelings in most of us that mammals do, but there is no reason to assume they experience pain any less vividly than "higher" animals. (In fact, lack of higher intelligence may mean they experience pain and fear more intensely instead of less!) I try to imagine biting into an apple with a concealed hook and suddenly being yanked into the water. After struggling to the point of exhaustion, I'm pulled under the surface, partially drowned, the hook is ripped out of my mouth and I'm cast back up onto solid ground. As I lie there retching and gasping, what do I think about "catch and release?" (At one time there was, in fact, a fascinating TV ad much like this.) How valid is this kind of reasoning? Do animals feel and respond as we do? Do we care?

 

The reasoning about fish feeling pain is valid as far as we can know. But, without wanting to seem trite, nature is cruel, if we want to understand and be part of nature we have to accept this. In nature creatures are in a constant state of hunting and being hunted. This is not an excuse for gratuitous cruelty, that is disrespectful to nature, whether a hunter should be imbueded with respect for nature, rather cruelty can be accepted as part of the results of behaving in a natural balanced manner.

 

On deer: As a twenty year resident of Northern Virginia' date=' I experienced the deer population explosion at its worst. My son totalled my wife's Accura in a deer/car collision and everyone in the family experience numerous close calls! Like most prudent people in that region we also became accustomed to staying out of the woods during hunting season. That way the hunters mainly shot each other. Not a year passed without several "tragic" instances of this type. (My first experience in the operating room at the University of Virginia involved a man whose brother had mistaken him for a turkey on a Thanksgiving Day hunt.)

Hunting is by no means the only way to control wild animal populations. For instance, birth control hormones can be administered to deer through doctored salt licks or subcutaneous implants placed by game wardens. In many regions, these humane methods are actively opposed by hunting groups, who use the overpopulation problem as justification for their "sport."[/quote']

 

The idea of dumping hormones into wild populations for the purposes of birth control sounds horrific to me. Their are enough artifical chemicals in the environment without adding more, the end results would not be pretty, bio accumulation of all sorts of compounds, unanticipated results would definetely result. Anyone stating with certainty that this would be foolproof with no side effects is a liar.

 

As several postings noted, reintroduction of natural predators, like wolves or mountain lions, has problems of its own. A true "natural" balance cannot be achieved while humans, their livestock and pets are part of the environment.

 

In the near future it does not seem likely that humans are going to be leaving the environment. But efforts can be made to limit the harmful impact

 

Kelton: I would have liked to read more along the line of your questions: Since a relatively small minority of the population hunts' date=' why do we put up with the problems they cause, like:

(1) Pollution of estuaries and lakes by lead shot

(2) Proliferation of firearms

(3) Endangerment of hunters and non-hunters alike by careless shooters

(4) Noise pollution

(5) Debasement of animal gene pools (Evolution depends on "survival of the

fittest," but hunters routinely try to kill only "prime" specimens.)[/quote']

 

Where hunters act irresponsibly they should be stopped. For instance lead shot can be subsituted easily, it is more expensive, but that's just tough luck. I doubt whether hunters guns actually play any significant role in gun crime, but steps can easily be taken to improve security and reduce the risks of firearms falling into the wrong hands, not all hunting involves guns anyway. As to the dangers of hunting, boo hoo, living in a risk free world would be like being dead anyway. Are we going to ban cars because of the vastly greater number of accidents they cause? I can't see noise pollution being a genuine concern about hunting. There are so many worse sources of noise to worry about. As for the debasement of animals genetics, if hunting is carried out in a responsible manner then the impact of klling a few individuals will not have any significant impact on the species as a whole.

 

Most of those points seemed to either be made just for the sake of thinking up something to oppose hunting for its own sake or to be concerned with the abuses committed by some hunters rather than against the basic principle of hunting generally.

 

My bias about hunting is pretty obvious, but I'm interested in serious responses from both sides of the issue, especially those with references to further resources.

 

You make valid points about the abuses committed by some hunters, those who blast trophy kills with high powered rifles from their cars or comfortable hides are, in my opinion, disrespectful scum. But that should not invalidate the idea that hunting can be about deeping an understanding and respect for nature. It is how hunting is carried out that is problematic, not whether hunting should take place.

 

I hope you find this response intersting and it helps with your essay.

 

aj

[coquina]

I went on a hunt at Ft. Eustis, Newport News, VA. In the morning, I was amongst the 1/2 of the hunters who hunted, so I was in a tree stand. I didn't have what I thought was a "clear kill" so I didn't shoot. In the afternoon, I "drove". The people who participated in the hunt had been divided in half - one half hunted the other drove. "Driving" consisted of standing arm to arm (literally), screaming and hollering and running the deer under the stands so the hunters could shoot them. They killed 4 dogs that day. It was the last day that I ever "hunted". I would hunt, and kill, if I needed to eat, and I know how to go about it. I am very glad that I have never been forced to it.

[Aardvark]

I went on a hunt at Ft. Eustis, Newport News, VA. In the morning, I was amongst the 1/2 of the hunters who hunted, so I was in a tree stand. I didn't have what I thought was a "clear kill" so I didn't shoot. In the afternoon, I "drove". The people who participated in the hunt had been divided in half - one half hunted the other drove. "Driving" consisted of standing arm to arm (literally), screaming and hollering and running the deer under the stands so the hunters could shoot them. They killed 4 dogs that day. It was the last day that I ever "hunted". I would hunt, and kill, if I needed to eat, and I know how to go about it. I am very glad that I have never been forced to it.

 

 

That sounds like a good example of bad, disrespectful hunting. Those people might as well have gone to a slaughter house and shot a few sheep in their pens.

[Coral Rhedd]

Kelton wisely pointed out one type of hunting. The type people do as a hobby or for sport. Long ago I used to live on a ranch and during hunting season the rancher leased hunting rights to a group of city fellas. They came with their big luxury trailers (actually I think these things are called something fancier than trailers) and parked outside our windows. They had money but they tried to borrow lots of things from us like batteries, bread, and hand lotion. We learned to just say forget it. These guys made a real messes. They shot almost everything that moved, including cows. They left gates open. They got drunk and rowdy. One of them kicked one of my dogs. that almost brought on a war. When they left the gate on the cattle guard open, one of the horses tried to walk the cattle guard and got his foot hung in the rails of the guard and limped and was unusable for over a month. These guys only wanted to hunt bucks with big racks. They would cut off the horns and leave the meat to waste. Tough old bucks taste too gamey anyway.

 

But there is another sort of hunting. We were poor and we mostly had goat meat to eat. To this day, I will get sick at the smell of goat. One year for population control the game warden handed out some doe permits. My mouth began to water at the thought of a young tender doe in the freezer. I didn't hunt. I have never been a good shot but my ex was an expert marksman. I kept waiting for him to use one of the doe permits. Finally, I all but forced him into the pick up with me saying: "Let's go kill some dinner." He moaned and groaned and whined. He liked goat meat. He also liked making me feel frustrated.

 

We went to a pasture that had doe all over the place browsing as though human being were the least of their concerns. And we had them at close range. My ex shot and missed. We visited two other pastures with the same result. Finally I turned to him and screamed: "If you don't kill an effing doe you're sleeping on the sofa until Christmas." Even that didn't inspire him.

 

When I was a child, my parents had over extended themselves financially. My father used to take us kids to the country to shoot rabbits. I hated it but we ate rabbit almost every Sunday and Saturday in the 'r' months. It was a nice change from beans.

 

In rural areas, there are still people who hunt for food. I don't really think we can separate all hunting from its connection to food. Are we really so different from other predators? My dog eats dog food but he drools at the sight of birds and cats.

[Aardvark]

Long ago I used to live on a ranch and during hunting season the rancher leased hunting rights to a group of city fellas. They came with their big luxury trailers (actually I think these things are called something fancier than trailers) and parked outside our windows. They had money but they tried to borrow lots of things from us like batteries' date=' bread, and hand lotion. We learned to just say forget it. These guys made a real messes. They shot almost everything that moved, including cows. They left gates open. They got drunk and rowdy. One of them kicked one of my dogs. that almost brought on a war. When they left the gate on the cattle guard open, one of the horses tried to walk the cattle guard and got his foot hung in the rails of the guard and limped and was unusable for over a month. These guys only wanted to hunt bucks with big racks. They would cut off the horns and leave the meat to waste. Tough old bucks taste too gamey anyway.

 

But there is another sort of hunting. We were poor and we mostly had goat meat to eat. To this day, I will get sick at the smell of goat. One year for population control the game warden handed out some doe permits. My mouth began to water at the thought of a young tender doe in the freezer. I didn't hunt. I have never been a good shot but my ex was an expert marksman. I kept waiting for him to use one of the doe permits. Finally, I all but forced him into the pick up with me saying: "Let's go kill some dinner." He moaned and groaned and whined. He liked goat meat. He also liked making me feel frustrated.

 

We went to a pasture that had doe all over the place browsing as though human being were the least of their concerns. And we had them at close range. My ex shot and missed. We visited two other pastures with the same result. Finally I turned to him and screamed: "If you don't kill an effing doe you're sleeping on the sofa until Christmas." Even that didn't inspire him.[/quote']

 

I like to think hunting can be a way to get closer to nature, to develop greater respect and understanding. But the behaviour of some men (it's normally men) makes me just despair. I suppose for some men hunting is a means to swagger and bully.

 

However, just because a lot of men are a*******s shouldn't allow the respect and reverence the rest of us feel to be defiled.

 

On a side note, why do so many men confuse manliness with crude macho posturing?

[rakuenso]

If you ask me, hunting for leisure is a very very bad thing for the environment see that its the prime method (maybe next to deforestation) for species extinction. If we have the food to supply ourselves with, why bother killin animals for fun

[Coral Rhedd]

On a side note, why do so many men confuse manliness with crude macho posturing?

 

I don't know Aardvark. I grew up with three younger brothers and this has always baffled me. I just naively have thought it has something to do with horror-mones.

[YT2095]

The supersition of giving thanks isn't necassarily believed by the hunter to actually make the animals spirit comforted' date=' but is part of the process of developing the closer bond to nature that is an important part of hunting to many people. Responsible hunters are often the strongest conservationists as they develop a deeper understanding, on both a practical and emotional basis, to nature. Giving thanks to the creature you have killed is part of that emotional process of developing respect for the natural world.

 

[/quote']

 

Thank you, you`ve explained my veiw on the issue far better than I could have!

 

I guess it also be classed as a "superstition" as is Asking for permission when you see your prey (plant or animal).

 

in that sense, it`s little different to saying a prayer of thanks before eating a meal, or indeed ThanksGiving holidays.

 

maybe the only Scientific reason behind it, is that it steadies your aim?

I`m no Psychologist.

but if it works (or even appears to) then why not?

[Hellbender]

I don't know Aardvark. I grew up with three younger brothers and this has always baffled me. I just naively have thought it has something to do with horror-mones.

 

naturally, men have more testosterone, making them behave aggressively. MAny male animals do. It would seem that some men have too much, but I think the levels are pretty much the same. A lot of us guys act like brutes to hide their insecurities as a man, making guys like me look bad too. Yeah, I said it.

[coquina]

A bit off topic, but why do you have to spray your apples to make them edible? That sounds a bit disturbing.

 

I don't know all the things you spray for, but among them, you have to spray in the spring to make some of the blossoms fall, or else you have a whole lot of very small apples. You also have to spray just as the fruit starts to form. An insect lays its egg in the remains of the blossom, the fruit forms around it, then the egg hatches and the larva eats its way out of the apple from the inside. Around here, if you don't spray for that particular insect, your apple can look perfect, but when you bite into it, you may look at the apple and see a part of a worm left in it.

[Aardvark]

I don't know all the things you spray for, but among them, you have to spray in the spring to make some of the blossoms fall, or else you have a whole lot of very small apples.

 

On the orchard i worked on we simply picked out a lot of the smallest apples when they were just starting to form. It left room for the remaining apples to grow to a full size. A bit labour intensive, i could do about 70 trees a day, but better than blossom killing sprays i think.

 

You also have to spray just as the fruit starts to form. An insect lays its egg in the remains of the blossom, the fruit forms around it, then the egg hatches and the larva eats its way out of the apple from the inside. Around here, if you don't spray for that particular insect, your apple can look perfect, but when you bite into it, you may look at the apple and see a part of a worm left in it.

 

It makes me wonder how we ever grew anything before chemical sprays

 

At the orchard i was working in there were plenty of birds living in the trees and they controlled the insects. It wasn't an organic orchard, the owner just liked to try and minimise unnecessary use of pesticides.

[YT2095]

I like to think hunting can be a way to get closer to nature' date=' to develop greater respect and understanding. But the behaviour of some men (it's normally men) makes me just despair. I suppose for some men hunting is a means to swagger and bully.

 

However, just because a lot of men are a*******s shouldn't allow the respect and reverence the rest of us feel to be defiled.

 

On a side note, why do so many men confuse manliness with crude macho posturing?[/quote']

 

I have no idea either, it`s odd that "having a heart" is perceived by some as a weakness, I personaly don`t find it so, I perceive it as a strength (for me anyway).

perhaps it is as you said, a defence type thing to coverup an insecurit(y/ies).

it`s self defeating in the long though.

[boxhead]

Why do we still hunt? What's the big thrill about shooting a wild animal? I'm not against it' date=' I know plenty of people who do hunt, its just that I never quite understood it. If I was ever in an extreme condition where I had to hunt to survive I'm sure I could. But when I really don't have to, why would I?

 

Is fishing any different? I like fishing. I am a catch and release guy. Why do I like it? I find it relaxing but I also find reading a book has the same effect. Maybe it has to do with outwitting wild creatures and getting some kind of pleasurable rush from it. If you watch those guys shoot a deer on TV you'd swear they're having an orgasm. Its almost primeval. Go out hunting for days, away from the little woman and substitute sex with a kill. Whatever the reason for hunting, it must be good.

 

Even the dinosaurs wouldn't have stood a chance, a challenge maybe, but I'm sure if someone ever invents a time machine to take us back, hunters would be lining up.[/quote']

 

sex and violence is the two basic feelings we have and we are designed that way by the nature to survive in the competetion. but now as our mind is evolved we start thinking about those things which are there in our subconscious for last thousands of years.