Is there something odd about God? Can anybody know anything about God?

[science4ever]

I am extremely bad at logic but active atheists have told me that only philosophy

can say anything about the existence of a god and what one can know about such a god.

 

So Ontology what exists and Epistemology what we can know.

 

1. My fuzzy logic then tells me that there is no way to know if God exists or not?

2. There is logically know way to get any evidence for an existing god or evidence for

a non existing god either. the way they have defined god makes God beyond such evidence?

 

3. So if there exist a god then neither believers nor atheists can know that it exists at all.

 

 

I wild guess that some theologians have tried to solve this by saying

that the Concept God point to a theoretically possible god that may exist

so if there is one then the word God point to that real God even if there is no evidence for such a god.

 

I see that as a kind of cheating. Would be more honest if they admited that they are desperate

to at all cost postulate the existence of a possible god.

 

Now if my confused brain get's it right then the whole fight between theists and atheists

seems rather futile.

 

There is no way to know if a god exists or not. so to ask if somebody believe that god exist

seems to be about personal preferences on supporting an old tradition more than about

any real God. I mean the believers have no way to know if a god exists or not.

So what is the point asking them?

 

Maybe it is more about sorting people into categories.

 

1. You are a believer in superstitions about gods so I will be skeptical to anything you say.

2. You lack the believe in gods so now we only have thrillions of other superstitious belief to sort out

 

It is pointless is it not?

 

What is not pointless is the political power of religious traditions.

 

The political power of religion is strong enough to make several countries

to have restrictions on sexual education and easy to get contraceptices

so a lot of woman get more children than they want.

 

Abortion is forbidden or heavily restricted.

 

Seen from politics God is very much in power but the logical atheists

tells me that such realities are totally irrelevant to the question on God.

 

To them politically powerful gods are irrelevant. They are only imagined

and the logical atheist only care about an "existing" god.

 

Is that not extremely odd? What is the logical answer that we can have any knowledge

for an existing god.

 

the only evidence for a god that de facto have impact on our lives are the imagined gods.

Edited September 3, 2013 by science4ever

[DevilSolution]

'FOR' god 'SAKE'

 

I think it boils down to your perception of reality, benevolent, malevolent, light, darkness. God represents all of it.

 

It's less a question of what god IS but what we ARE.....

 

Cast into terra, until we can play nice....i presume.

[science4ever]

I trust my thinking and the way I express my thoughts are too confusing.

But I stand up for what I wrote there. But I will not defend or explain it further.

 

since I wrote it I have had a cancer operation and will be totally absorbed in surviving.

So take it for what it is. one atheists way to try to understand the logic of god.

 

I obviously fail to get it. Your explanation did not help me eitehr

 

So Good bye

[John Cuthber]

Good luck with the cancer

You might find this interesting

 

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

 

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/l/luciusanna118600.html

[Iota]

Though it's not possible to say God doesn't exist, it's easy to show why all the religions that exist can't be true.

 

since I wrote it I have had a cancer operation and will be totally absorbed in surviving.

So take it for what it is. one atheists way to try to understand the logic of god.

 

all the best with your treatment man.

[DevilSolution]

I think theres plenty to interpret from religion, thats what my post represented, albeit vague.

 

I dont think anyone has an answer or finds it easy, you'll get lost in it if you let yourself.

 

 

Hopefully you have a speedy recovery so we can hear from you again. Stay strong!!

[turionx2]

'FOR' god 'SAKE'

 

I think it boils down to your perception of reality, benevolent, malevolent, light, darkness. God represents all of it.

 

It's less a question of what god IS but what we ARE.....

 

Cast into terra, until we can play nice....i presume.

 

What do you mean by the bold part?

[Alan McDougall]

Most religions believe God is infinite in power, intelligence and is everywhere Omni-Everything is you like.

 

At this level God must be "Inscrutable" to little puny mortal humans like us.

[DevilSolution]

 

What do you mean by the bold part?

 

Just my interpretation of this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven

 

I was very high

Edited November 7, 2013 by DevilSolution

[John Cuthber]

Though it's not possible to say God doesn't exist, it's easy to show why all the religions that exist can't be true.

 

.

 

 

Most religions believe God is infinite in power, intelligence and is everywhere Omni-Everything is you like.

 

Indeed Alan,

That's the basis of one of the proofs.

The religions say God is omnipotent.

But omnipotence is logically impossible.*

Therefore the religions are wrong.

 

As Iota says, it doesn't prove that God doesn't exist- but if the only people saying He does are known to be wrong then you have to say that assuming His existence, and basing even the most trivial aspect of your life on that assumption, is illogical.

 

 

* (Can God set Himself a challenge he can't meet? If not He's not omnipotent because He can't set it, if so then He's not omnipotent because He can't meet it)

[DevilSolution]

 

 

Indeed Alan,

That's the basis of one of the proofs.

The religions say God is omnipotent.

But omnipotence is logically impossible.*

Therefore the religions are wrong.

 

As Iota says, it doesn't prove that God doesn't exist- but if the only people saying He does are known to be wrong then you have to say that assuming His existence, and basing even the most trivial aspect of your life on that assumption, is illogical.

 

 

* (Can God set Himself a challenge he can't meet? If not He's not omnipotent because He can't set it, if so then He's not omnipotent because He can't meet it)

 

What about the single electron theory? though not an electron a single *thing* that simaltaniously moves through everything in a single tick to give way to physical reality. I dont think its logically impossible.

 

Do you understand the concept??

[science4ever]

Though it's not possible to say God doesn't exist, it's easy to show why all the religions that exist can't be true.

 

 

all the best with your treatment man.

Thanks for caring words about my Cancer treatment. I fear the worse

the prognose is bad. At most two years left if I take the strongest doses

and maybe 6 month to 1 years if I don't want the Chemo treatment.

Way too short for an impatient person like myself I want at least 5 years

and no treatment. So if God give me that then I will pretend I believe in him

 

"it's easy to show why all the religions that exist can't be true."

 

Yes and even if God does exist. Logically there is no way to know anything about God

So I see two options.

 

1. To see God as a social construct, a kind of group tool for cooperation.

Very similar to Political Correctness. A group tool for how to behave. Social norms.

Very similar in being extremely moral and righteous and supporting the good side.

If you have God on your side or Political Correctness on your side how can you be wrong

 

2. To see God as a ridiculous concept and do ones best to ridicule it. Many atheists

seems to go that route and I did that for many decades too but my hatred felt bad

I did not like that I hated the ridiculous believers. I could have been one of them.

 

I actually believed in UFO/Alien reports so who am I to condemn crazy faith?

 

I see God as a kind of Group Placebo Construct that works to a certain degree.

An old version of the more modern Political Correctness. Same kind of righteousness.

 

I leave this thread now. Continue if you find it interesting. Good bye!

[John Cuthber]

 

What about the single electron theory? though not an electron a single *thing* that simaltaniously moves through everything in a single tick to give way to physical reality. I dont think its logically impossible.

 

Do you understand the concept??

Interesting idea, but, as far as I can tell, way off topic unless you are just saying that God is not actually impossible- which is fair enough, but dull. Pixies are not strictly impossible but, by their nature, can't be proved to exist . Not much of a discussion there. Feel free to start another thread.

[DevilSolution]

Interesting idea, but, as far as I can tell, way off topic unless you are just saying that God is not actually impossible- which is fair enough, but dull. Pixies are not strictly impossible but, by their nature, can't be proved to exist . Not much of a discussion there. Feel free to start another thread.

 

Sorry, i didnt really make it clear. When you said omnipotence is impossible and therefor religion is wrong i offered this theory as a form of logical omnipotence. Though not in the contempary sense but more in the scientific sense. You are right this is straying from the OP however my threads always die in the water and im not sure how to articulate the theory. I wasnt trying to prove gods existence, just to iterate that omnipotence is not logically impossible.

 

@Science4ever: i wish you all the best mate, i think you've hit a cross road in your beliefs and are trying to rationalise them on paper. Asalready mentioned i think its a very difficult process trying to comprehend ones perception of reality, one which im sure never fully gets solved.

Edited November 9, 2013 by DevilSolution

[Lightmeow]

Hey, peoples, Always found this bit of logic strange

 

What do people wear when they go to heaven? The four possible answers

1) White Robes(Amusing Concept)

2)90's clothes(i.e., what they were wearing when they died)

3)All Naked(We know this isn't right, first thing Adam and Eve ate from the tree)

4)Robot suits(Probably not, look what they did to Galileo

 

And, what happens to the population problem up their? Or every 500 years, does god come with a mighty vacuum cleaner to make it a nicer place)

 

Just some thoughts...

[Alan McDougall]

Belief in God gives peace and hope to countless people, as evidence in the death bed scenarios of people of faith. You don't have to be religious to believe in God, it can remain a quiet inner conviction that needs no proof.

 

I recently had a very close brush with death, my heart stopped one evening due to total AV heart block, which involved a protracted effort by a team of doctors on the resuscitation table to bring me back from the brink of death. I now have a heart pacemaker installed and a much more restrained approach to dying and the possibility of an afterlife, which I will not attempt to prove to anyone, they can make up their own mind on the subject of God and death.

[John Cuthber]

 

What about the single electron theory? though not an electron a single *thing* that simaltaniously moves through everything in a single tick to give way to physical reality. I dont think its logically impossible.

 

Do you understand the concept??

Yes, and it has nothing to do with omnipotence. Electrons are not able to choose to do anything.

 

Belief in God gives peace and hope to countless people, as evidence in the death bed scenarios of people of faith. You don't have to be religious to believe in God, it can remain a quiet inner conviction that needs no proof.

 

I recently had a very close brush with death, my heart stopped one evening due to total AV heart block, which involved a protracted effort by a team of doctors on the resuscitation table to bring me back from the brink of death. I now have a heart pacemaker installed and a much more restrained approach to dying and the possibility of an afterlife, which I will not attempt to prove to anyone, they can make up their own mind on the subject of God and death.

"Belief in God gives peace and hope to countless people, as evidence in the death bed scenarios of people of faith."

Faulty logic since

many people who are theists still are terrified of death.

Not all atheists are scared to die.

So, religion may offer some help to some.

But I'm still glad you made it through the experience.

[Alan McDougall]

Yes, and it has nothing to do with omnipotence. Electrons are not able to choose to do anything.

 

"Belief in God gives peace and hope to countless people, as evidence in the death bed scenarios of people of faith."

Faulty logic since

many people who are theists still are terrified of death.

Not all atheists are scared to die.

So, religion may offer some help to some.

But I'm still glad you made it through the experience.

 

If you read what I said I said countless people (I should have said many people), however, theists differ greatly in their idea of exactly what their God character is, thus to some God is a remote disinterested great entity who created the universe and let it run on its own , without interfering (God of Spinoza) To some God is a personal loving entity that promises an afterlife, it is this group that gets the most comfort out of believing in God, "even if they are wrong"

[Marklovski]

I hate the argument about God and the thought of God. You can't say God exists and doesn't exist because you cannot perceive God. This is really one of topics humans can truly have knowledge about. Once we die for good then we will know. It also doesn't make sense in which religious people say they died and experience heaven/hell. According to the bible and through my own experience through bible classes, when a person dies they go to a "waiting room" before it is decided to which realm they fall under. So humans just have merely delusions of God, yet that doesn't mean he isn't real. If God is real then it seems like he just made us and then let us loose. Doubt he truly does anything to the mortal realm.

[John Cuthber]

I hate the argument about God and the thought of God. You can't say God exists and doesn't exist because you cannot perceive God. This is really one of topics humans can truly have knowledge about. Once we die for good then we will know. It also doesn't make sense in which religious people say they died and experience heaven/hell. According to the bible and through my own experience through bible classes, when a person dies they go to a "waiting room" before it is decided to which realm they fall under. So humans just have merely delusions of God, yet that doesn't mean he isn't real. If God is real then it seems like he just made us and then let us loose. Doubt he truly does anything to the mortal realm.

Do you mean "This is really one of topics only dead humans can truly have knowledge about. Once we die for good then we will know. "

[Alan McDougall]

 

What about the single electron theory? though not an electron a single *thing* that simaltaniously moves through everything in a single tick to give way to physical reality. I dont think its logically impossible.

 

Do you understand the concept??

 

Yes I do, according to this theory , non-locality and interconnectivity of electrons, an electron, which is a fundamental particle can exist in more that one place at the same moment, and all electrons have an instantaneous connection with every other electron in the universe, , thus all electrons (Or all fundamental particles in the universe) are in reality just the expression of one thing huge, omnipresent and eternal, like God is supposed to be.

I trust my thinking and the way I express my thoughts are too confusing.

But I stand up for what I wrote there. But I will not defend or explain it further.

 

since I wrote it I have had a cancer operation and will be totally absorbed in surviving.

So take it for what it is. one atheists way to try to understand the logic of god.

 

I obviously fail to get it. Your explanation did not help me eitehr

 

So Good bye

 

I will undertake to pray for you, it is only now that I have read you post! An Atheist, really will prove to be useless at comforting a very sick or dying person, take Richard Dawkings and his new Atheism, imagine him trying to comfort a person on their death bed, as opposed to a person with a firm conviction that there is a beautiful afterlife, which of the two would be more helpful at this very trying moment?

'FOR' god 'SAKE'

 

I think it boils down to your perception of reality, benevolent, malevolent, light, darkness. God represents all of it.

 

It's less a question of what god IS but what we ARE.....

 

Cast into terra, until we can play nice....i presume.

 

Maybe there is an absolute reality?

Edited December 15, 2013 by Alan McDougall

[John Cuthber]

(With or without the help of interconnected electrons) Does God know what question He can't answer?

No?

OK so, He's still not omniscient.

The same still goes for omnipotence too.

[Alan McDougall]

I hate the argument about God and the thought of God. You can't say God exists and doesn't exist because you cannot perceive God. This is really one of topics humans can truly have knowledge about. Once we die for good then we will know. It also doesn't make sense in which religious people say they died and experience heaven/hell. According to the bible and through my own experience through bible classes, when a person dies they go to a "waiting room" before it is decided to which realm they fall under. So humans just have merely delusions of God, yet that doesn't mean he isn't real. If God is real then it seems like he just made us and then let us loose. Doubt he truly does anything to the mortal realm.

 

If you exist, then why is it impossible for God to exist? I don't think God let us loose, he gave us a free will without any reservations, so that we can choose right or wrong and also make meaningful decisions of our own. If it were not this way, we would have been robots, or controlled by instinct like animals (I love animals by the way)

I am extremely bad at logic but active atheists have told me that only philosophy

can say anything about the existence of a god and what one can know about such a god.

 

So Ontology what exists and Epistemology what we can know.

 

1. My fuzzy logic then tells me that there is no way to know if God exists or not?

2. There is logically know way to get any evidence for an existing god or evidence for

a non existing god either. the way they have defined god makes God beyond such evidence?

 

3. So if there exist a god then neither believers nor atheists can know that it exists at all.

 

 

I wild guess that some theologians have tried to solve this by saying

that the Concept God point to a theoretically possible god that may exist

so if there is one then the word God point to that real God even if there is no evidence for such a god.

 

I see that as a kind of cheating. Would be more honest if they admited that they are desperate

to at all cost postulate the existence of a possible god.

 

Now if my confused brain get's it right then the whole fight between theists and atheists

seems rather futile.

 

There is no way to know if a god exists or not. so to ask if somebody believe that god exist

seems to be about personal preferences on supporting an old tradition more than about

any real God. I mean the believers have no way to know if a god exists or not.

So what is the point asking them?

 

Maybe it is more about sorting people into categories.

 

1. You are a believer in superstitions about gods so I will be skeptical to anything you say.

2. You lack the believe in gods so now we only have thrillions of other superstitious belief to sort out

 

It is pointless is it not?

 

What is not pointless is the political power of religious traditions.

 

The political power of religion is strong enough to make several countries

to have restrictions on sexual education and easy to get contraceptices

so a lot of woman get more children than they want.

 

Abortion is forbidden or heavily restricted.

 

Seen from politics God is very much in power but the logical atheists

tells me that such realities are totally irrelevant to the question on God.

 

To them politically powerful gods are irrelevant. They are only imagined

and the logical atheist only care about an "existing" god.

 

Is that not extremely odd? What is the logical answer that we can have any knowledge

for an existing god.

 

the only evidence for a god that de facto have impact on our lives are the imagined gods.

 

There is a huge amount of evidence for God, although I admit that the evidence is circumstantial.

(With or without the help of interconnected electrons) Does God know what question He can't answer?

No?

OK so, He's still not omniscient.

The same still goes for omnipotence too.

 

How can you suppose to know what the attributes of an infinite being are in reality. that sort of logic is useless, like asking if God can make a rock to heavy for him to lift up. God like us must be limited by absolute logic, thus he cannot maker 7 +7 + 15.

[John Cuthber]

 

If you exist, then why is it impossible for God to exist? I don't think God let us loose, he gave us a free will without any reservations, so that we can choose right or wrong and also make meaningful decisions of our own. If it were not this way, we would have been robots, or controlled by instinct like animals (I love animals by the way)

 

There is a huge amount of evidence for God, although I admit that the evidence is circumstantial.

 

How can you suppose to know what the attributes of an infinite being are in reality. that sort of logic is useless, like asking if God can make a rock to heavy for him to lift up. God like us must be limited by absolute logic, thus he cannot maker 7 +7 + 15.

"If you exist, then why is it impossible for God to exist?"

 

Strawman.

Nobody said that He can't exist, just that there's no reason to believe that He does.

 

"There is a huge amount of evidence for God, although I admit that the evidence is circumstantial."

No there isn't. There is stuff that you can attribute to some God, but there is no reason to do so.

Perhaps you would like to cite some of the so-called evidence, rather than just asserting there's lots of it.

 

 

" that sort of logic is useless"

Once you discount logic, there's no real point to a discussion is there?

Still, the willful decision to ignore logic might explain the strawman.

[Alan McDougall]

The answer is that the laws of logic are part of the nature of God. In other words, logic is built into God. He did not create logic like he created humans, but neither did logic exist as some sort of entity outside of God. Since God has always existed, and the laws of logic are based in God, then the laws of logic have always existed as well.

 

Can God violate the laws of logic? No, because he cannot not be himself. Whatever God is, he is eternally. God does not shut down various attributes of his being, like cutting off lights in different parts of the house. God is logical, he always has been logical, and he always will be logical.

-

http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2010/09/13/is-god-subject-to-logic/#sthash.0mNFBFgH.dpuf

 

In my opinion God cannot do what is not logical, it is not really a limitation, because God is intrinsically logical and if it were not so, we would not exist.

 

The other question often asked can God do the impossible, of course God is confined by logic, but can do what is "humanly impossible", not , not do what is "logically impossible", like making a square circle or making 3+3 =150. This in not a limitation, just a statement of ultimate reality!

 

This dismissal of a simple statement of mine, like "if you exist why cant God exist" as a straw-man argument, is just away to avoid answering the question and really irritated me. Even if it is a straw -man argument at least try and refute it, not dismiss it outright.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Alan McDougall