Frankfort Auto Show Features Electric Cars

[EdEarl]

 

Journalists view BMW's i3 electric car at the Frankfurt Motor Show (IAA) on September 9, 2013. It is BMW's first fully electric model and will have a driving range of 80-186 miles, going on sale in November.

I hope the electrics sell. The 80-186 mile range seems like it will suit the European market, where people ride trains much more than in the US.

[CaptainPanic]

I believe the main reason that the European market may adopt electric cars before the US is that the electricity grid is being upgraded to accommodate large amounts of wind power (as well as some solar power).

 

There are times when Germany/Denmark produce so much wind power that they have to dump the excess electricity on foreign markets (e.g. Netherlands) for free. If you have an electric car, and you have a smart grid, maybe in the (very near) future it becomes possible to recharge your car for free, just so the German grid can get rid of its electricity. The 80-186 mile (129 - 300 km) is sufficient for almost all commutes, as well as some other business trips. If you only commute, this can be quite an affordable option (low tax, low fuel costs), and it is obviously a fashion item: "My electric BMW".

[Phi for All]

The 80-186 mile (129 - 300 km) is sufficient for almost all commutes, as well as some other business trips.

 

And this is true in the US as well, if Americans would realize it. Most people could use an electric car most of the time they drive. There has been an active effort since the 90s to make electric cars seem toy-like and not really serious. A lot of Americans just have this idea that they will be screwed if they need to run errands or do anything that's outside their normal commute range.

 

They probably don't realize how employers might be encouraged to have charging available at work as well. I hope we've reached a tipping point where electric cars can start gaining much more momentum. Tesla Motors certainly has proven they aren't toys.

[swansont]

And this is true in the US as well, if Americans would realize it. Most people could use an electric car most of the time they drive. There has been an active effort since the 90s to make electric cars seem toy-like and not really serious. A lot of Americans just have this idea that they will be screwed if they need to run errands or do anything that's outside their normal commute range.

 

They probably don't realize how employers might be encouraged to have charging available at work as well. I hope we've reached a tipping point where electric cars can start gaining much more momentum. Tesla Motors certainly has proven they aren't toys.

There's a critical mass of infrastructure that we need. We had several decades to put this in place for gasoline, and the US didn't see the huge sprawl to the suburbs until it was being put in place — you could do these simultaneously. Now we are trying to do it for electric cars, but the infrastructure buildout has to happen faster. The problem is that there's not much money in it for independent business folk, especially until there's more widespread adoption, so it has to be done as a work perq, or as a side benefit of owning the car, as Tesla is doing it.

 

I think Europe is a better match because of the shorter distances and generally better mass transit already in place. Also the higher petrol/gasoline taxes make the economics even more attractive.

[Iota]

If you have an electric car, and you have a smart grid, maybe in the (very near) future it becomes possible to recharge your car for free, just so the German grid can get rid of its electricity.

 

Whereas if that were the case in the US, they'd find a way to charge someone for that electricity. 'Something for free', a concept that scares a lot of American politicians... too socialist, like the NHS. "Evil and Orwellian" as some right-wingers put it. I here stories of big business buying into politics a lot in the US, I don't know how the true that is? If so, big oil companies will probably set up a political campaign to impede progress in the transition to electricity powered transport. Especially if another G. Bush gets into power. That massive gun company in the US did something similar recently, if I recall correctly.

[swansont]

Whereas if that were the case in the US, they'd find a way to charge someone for that electricity. 'Something for free', a concept that scares a lot of American politicians... too socialist, like the NHS. "Evil and Orwellian" as some right-wingers put it. I here stories of big business buying into politics a lot in the US, I don't know how the true that is? If so, big oil companies will probably set up a political campaign to impede progress in the transition to electricity powered transport. Especially if another G. Bush gets into power. That massive gun company in the US did something similar recently, if I recall correctly.

"Free" charging is what Tesla is doing, though, with its charger stations. In reality it just means you've prepaid the cost of the electricity when you buy the car. For an electric car that's only a few thousand dollars. It seems like that model could work elsewhere. Politicians need not get involved.

[CaptainPanic]

Iota,

I am not sure you understood it: that electricity is essentially a 'waste'. They are not giving it away because they're nice people, they are essentially begging someone to use it, because otherwise the grid will overload and break down. Obviously, this has been arranged in business deals and treaties, so they don't have to call up the Dutch or the French in panic every time the wind blows, but it's not just a case of philanthropy. Also in the USA, you can get all kinds of waste and garbage for free, if you want.

 

It sounds like this is all not so bad, but the Dutch electricity producers complain: they need to stop their electricity production, which ruins their business case. Even the most efficient large scale powerplant cannot compete against (nearly) free electricity. Obviously, the consumer doesn't notice too much of this yet, at this moment. Most people pay a fixed price per kWh. But once you have a fleet of enough electric cars that can each receive a signal when it is cheapest to recharge, the peak in power production can be absorbed.

 

Obviously, there is a slight risk that you happen to need the car while your car is still waiting for a cheap price... which means it is optional to let your car recharge cheaply and smartly. You can also just tell it to recharge whatever the cost.

[Iota]

Ah ok

[EdEarl]

Captain Panic, please explain:

 

They are not giving it away because they're nice people, they are essentially begging someone to use it, because otherwise the grid will overload and break down.

I know that power generating plants can be turned off to remove the power they generate from the grid, without damaging either the grid or the power plant. Some plants take longer to shut down than others, especially the ones that use steam to transfer heat. However, PV generators can be turned off quickly and wind turbines a bit slower because the rotating blades need to be stopped.

 

I just read a study of whether it was economically better to store power in batteries when generated by PV or wind turbines, and the conclusion was turning off wind turbines was more cost effective.

[iNow]

What frustrates me is that there are already some good electric vehicles out there which I simply cannot get unless I'm willing drop massive amounts of cash. I would love a Tesla, specifically the Model X slated for next year, but cannot justify the cost. Another option is from Toyota, the Rav-4 all electric, but they are only being sold in California and New York and I cannot get it in Texas. Even the BMW i3 is not coming to where I live, nor is Audi's new all electric option. Come on... why is this so hard, people? Why do I need to move to another state to get the car I want?

[CaptainPanic]

Here's an explanation of how electricity prices can actually become negative. (You are paid to use electricity then). The bottom line: inflexibility on the grid.

 

As far as I know, consumers cannot benefit from this (yet), but it is the idea that smart grids enable consumers to switch on/off machines (laundry, dryer, dishwasher), or recharge the car when prices are ok.

[Phi for All]

Why do I need to move to another state to get the car I want?

 

Because the heart of Texas pumps oil, boy! You better watch out your governor doesn't take your batteries away altogether, make you all "cranky".