Free Will

[ajaysinghgoshiyal]

Does free will exist ? Any ideas ?

[Greg H.]

You're going to need to be more specific. What do you mean by "free will"? The ability for any thinking creature to arbitrarily determine it's own course through a non-deterministic universe? Or something else?

[Moontanman]

You're going to need to be more specific. What do you mean by "free will"? The ability for any thinking creature to arbitrarily determine it's own course through a non-deterministic universe? Or something else?

 

 

If that is what is being asserted then i think you can show free will down the level of protozoa at least...

[pears]

The ability for any thinking creature to arbitrarily determine it's own course through a non-deterministic universe?

 

If that is what is being asserted then i think you can show free will down the level of protozoa at least...

 

Can a protozoa 'think'? I suppose it depends what we mean by 'think'.

[Greg H.]

Then let me define think, since I used it first.

 

At it's most basic level, I would characterize thinking as the ability to accurately detect, process, and react to stimuli that impinge upon the organism.

[Moontanman]

 

 

Can a protozoa 'think'? I suppose it depends what we mean by 'think'.

 

 

Well they can choose, given more than one option they do choose... They react to stimuli but on a basic level so do we. The question, I think, is how complex the choice has to be before we consider it free will...

[ajaysinghgoshiyal]

You're going to need to be more specific. What do you mean by "free will"? The ability for any thinking creature to arbitrarily determine it's own course through a non-deterministic universe? Or something else?

You stated it as clearly as i could have done.

Then let me define think, since I used it first.

 

At it's most basic level, I would characterize thinking as the ability to accurately detect, process, and react to stimuli that impinge upon the organism.

A one hundred percent correct again.

[Moontanman]

Then let me define think, since I used it first.

 

At it's most basic level, I would characterize thinking as the ability to accurately detect, process, and react to stimuli that impinge upon the organism.

 

 

Then protozoa can think...

[ajaysinghgoshiyal]

To me basically speaking free will is the power that only we as intelligent humans have to determine our next course of action in our lives. Like choosing whether to reply to a particular message instead of another useless one. If my brain could type for me then all this would have been written while i was sleeping. Instead i make intelligent choices (use my free will) to type what i want and not what i dont want. If i cannot think i cannot be human. Nothing would differentiate me from an animal or a robot.

Edited October 3, 2013 by ajaysinghgoshiyal

[Moontanman]

To me basically speaking free will is the power that only we as intelligent humans have to determine our next course of action in our lives. Like choosing whether to reply to a particular message instead of another useless one. If my brain could type for me then all this would have been written while i was sleeping. Instead i make intelligent choices (use my free will) to type what i want and not what i dont want.

 

 

I'm going to have to disagree with that, a great many animals demonstrably have that same power. From Elephants to apes to whales and even fish and mollusks, humans cannot claim sole rights to free will, my own dogs demonstrate this every day..

[ajaysinghgoshiyal]

 

 

I'm going to have to disagree with that, a great many animals demonstrably have that same power. From Elephants to apes to whales and even fish and mollusks, humans cannot claim sole rights to free will, my own dogs demonstrate this every day..

 

I am very sorry that i forgot to mention that animals can and do make choices. I simply meant that they cannot think just like your aforesaid protozoa.

[Greg H.]

To me basically speaking free will is the power that only we as intelligent humans have to determine our next course of action in our lives. Like choosing whether to reply to a particular message instead of another useless one. If my brain could type for me then all this would have been written while i was sleeping. Instead i make intelligent choices (use my free will) to type what i want and not what i dont want. If i cannot think i cannot be human. Nothing would differentiate me from an animal or a robot.

 

 

 

I am very sorry that i forgot to mention that animals can and do make choices. I simply meant that they cannot think just like your aforesaid protozoa.

I disagree. Animals can and do think - they may not think about abstract concepts like religion, the nature of the self, or politics, but they do think. Animals make choices all the time - "Do I nest here or there?" "Do I forage for food in this direction or that one?" "Do I attack that animal or run away from it?" "Do I knock all the stuff off this shelf before or after I take a nap?" (My cat made me add that last one). Like humans, they have to deal with the consequences of those choices.

 

Robots on the other hand, do not have the free will to think for themselves outside of the bounds of their programming. If you present a robot with the exact same stimuli then it should, in theory, react in exactly the same way. An animal on the other hand (and I include the human animal) may or may not react the same depending on a variety of things including a vague sense of intuition that subtly change the context of the stimulus itself.

 

Edit to add: Robots are becoming more and more complex all the time - there may come a time when they do develop the ability to exceed their programming. My statements above are directed more towards factory style assembly line robots rather than the more advanced experimental models.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Greg H.

[ajaysinghgoshiyal]

If free will does not exist, then we can kill any one and use the twinkie defense to say that my brain did it and not me and therefore be absolved of my actions. if free will does actually exist, then i am free to make choices and be held morally responsible for all my actions.

 

 

 

I disagree. Animals can and do think - they may not think about abstract concepts like religion, the nature of the self, or politics, but they do think. Animals make choices all the time - "Do I nest here or there?" "Do I forage for food in this direction or that one?" "Do I attack that animal or run away from it?" "Do I knock all the stuff off this shelf before or after I take a nap?" (My cat made me add that last one). Like humans, they have to deal with the consequences of those choices.

 

Robots on the other hand, do not have the free will to think for themselves outside of the bounds of their programming. If you present a robot with the exact same stimuli then it should, in theory, react in exactly the same way. An animal on the other hand (and I include the human animal) may or may not react the same depending on a variety of things including a vague sense of intuition that subtly change the context of the stimulus itself.

 

Edit to add: Robots are becoming more and more complex all the time - there may come a time when they do develop the ability to exceed their programming. My statements above are directed more towards factory style assembly line robots rather than the more advanced experimental models.

 

Which language does an animal think in is my question if you say they can think. I am sorry that what i wrote was wrong only in the sense that i forgot to mention they can and do make choices.

[Moontanman]

I am very sorry that i forgot to mention that animals can and do make choices. I simply meant that they cannot think just like your aforesaid protozoa.

 

Ok, I'll accept that about protozoa but not for Elephants, dogs, apes, whales, octopus, ect...

 

If free will does not exist, then we can kill any one and use the twinkie defense to say that my brain did it and not me and therefore be absolved of my actions. if free will does actually exist, then i am free to make choices and be held morally responsible for all my actions.

Morals are relative to the culture they exist in, animals display moral behavior in relation to their social needs...

 

 

Which language does an animal think in is my question if you say they can think. I am sorry that what i wrote was wrong only in the sense that i forgot to mention they can and do make choices.

 

What language? You have to be a bit more precise, why would thought require a language? I can see that communication between animals might require a language but internal thought?

Edited October 3, 2013 by Moontanman

[Greg H.]

What language? You have to be a bit more precise, why would thought require a language? I can see that communication between animals might require a language but internal thought?

 

I would further add, why does it matter what "language" they think in?

[s1eep]

Free Will is an illusion. It does not exist. We are given liberty of ourselves, and ourselves are a finite organism with limited configurations; I can only use my arms the way that they were meant to be used; just because I have the choice between using any of my body parts does not mean I have free will, I have dominion of a finite system. We can only ever use ourselves were confined to; we may be able to take ourselves to particular activities but we can only interact with them in a number of ways. I guess free will is the illusion of having so much difference, and being able to choose between doing many different things, but only what yourselves are confined to. Freedom in limited space. I suppose it comes down to what you mean when you say "will".

Edited October 3, 2013 by s1eep

[ajaysinghgoshiyal]

They actually do think. Search google for "do animals think" and click on the link titled "Harvard Gazette".

 

 

But they cannot imagine like us. Please check "Yahoo Answers" in the above search.

Free Will is an illusion. It does not exist. We are given liberty of ourselves, and ourselves are a finite organism with limited configurations; I can only use my arms the way that they were meant to be used; just because I have the choice between using any of my body parts does not mean I have free will, I have dominion of a finite system. We can only ever use ourselves were confined to; we may be able to take ourselves to particular activities but we can only interact with them in a number of ways. I guess free will is the illusion of having so much difference, and being able to choose between doing many different things, but only what yourselves are confined to. Freedom in limited space. I suppose it comes down to what you mean when you say "will".

 

There is a difference between will and potential. We are free to make choices and take actions but obviously in a rather limited context.

Edited October 4, 2013 by ajaysinghgoshiyal

[Moontanman]

They actually do think. Search google for "do animals think" and click on the link titled "Harvard Gazette".

 

 

But they cannot imagine like us. Please check "Yahoo Answers" in the above search.

 

 

There is a difference between will and potential. We are free to make choices and take actions but obviously in a rather limited context.

They cannot imagine? How do you know that?

[ajaysinghgoshiyal]

They cannot imagine? How do you know that?

 

Please read Yahoo Answers which i provided earlier. It is some where near the end of the article.

[Moontanman]

Please read Yahoo Answers which i provided earlier. It is some where near the end of the article.

I did and I did see any assertions that animals cannot imagine, I suggest you provide the link the the quote that backs up your assertion... btw that is what we require, telling me to look it up is not acceptable..

[ajaysinghgoshiyal]

I did and I did see any assertions that animals cannot imagine, I suggest you provide the link the the quote that backs up your assertion... btw that is what we require, telling me to look it up is not acceptable..

Line 28. "Humans appear to have something no other animal has ever had,, an imagination." etc

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130525041341AAnZPBF

 

 

Click on Read more

Edited October 4, 2013 by ajaysinghgoshiyal

[Moontanman]

Line 28. "Humans appear to have something no other animal has ever had,, an imagination." etc

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130525041341AAnZPBF

 

 

Click on Read more

You realize that guys assertions are totally unsupported don't you? I can make an assertion that contradicts it completely with just as much authority... Observing my dogs for the last 38 years I think he is talking out his rectum...

In fact imagination needs to be defined before we can even debate the issue..

[Phi for All]

They actually do think. Search google for "do animals think" and click on the link titled "Harvard Gazette".

 

 

But they cannot imagine like us. Please check "Yahoo Answers" in the above search.

Please read Yahoo Answers which i provided earlier. It is some where near the end of the article.

 

!

Moderator Note

It's good protocol to provide a link to supportive evidence as a citation, and then copy/paste only the relevant portion so you aren't forcing people to search for your information "... some where [sic] near the end of the article".

 

Example:

 

From the Harvard Gazette: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/03.14/01-thinking.html

 

Hauser has been studying animal cognition since 1980, when a female spider monkey reached through the bars of her cage at Florida's Monkey Jungle and gave him a hug. He was 19 years old at the time. "She looked into my eyes and cooed several times," he remembers. "The experience got me to thinking about what animals are thinking and how to find out."

 

 

Doing this will also make you look less like you're trying to increase hits to other websites. Sound familiar?

[overtone]

Any predator that carries out a planned sequence of stalking moves adjusted to a particular situation when out sight of their prey is demonstrating imagination.

 

And freedom of their will.

 

Freedom of the will is what addicts have less of.

[ajaysinghgoshiyal]

 

!

Moderator Note

It's good protocol to provide a link to supportive evidence as a citation, and then copy/paste only the relevant portion so you aren't forcing people to search for your information "... some where [sic] near the end of the article".

 

Example:

 

From the Harvard Gazette: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/03.14/01-thinking.html

 

 

Doing this will also make you look less like you're trying to increase hits to other websites. Sound familiar?

 

What is sounding familiar?? It is reading "sarcastic"..