pippo Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 heard that engineered corn/soy now has been made so those plants/fruits produce their own "pesticides". Sounds like Star Trek. Can it be, people? Of course, this could start some histeria on us consuming these pesticides. Gotta be bunk. so far, could only find this: http://www.hoaxorfact.com/Health/gmo-corn-contains-harmful-insecticide-and-is-sold-unlabeled-facts-analysis.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 These kinds of plants have been around for quite a while. Generally insecticidal proteins from Bacillus thurigiensis are being expressed by the plant. These proteins are known to be harmless to humans. In fact the bacterium and its toxin have been used widely for pest control before the production of GMOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippo Posted October 11, 2013 Author Share Posted October 11, 2013 Thanks, charon. Good to now these proteins are harmless. But, how do the producers of GMO's manage to arrange the corn plant to actually produce the protein? How does the bacterium live in the corn plant and produce the protein. Im missing something here........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 No, the do not actually use the bacterium but rather introduced the gene that codes for that specific protein into the plant. Once integrated into the plant genome it will be produced just like any other protein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailurophobia Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 (edited) (On The Topic Of Histeria) I'm not exactly against the engineering of crops, but have you heard of Monsanto's "Terminator Seed"? It essentially produces a non-fertile seed so that it can't be reused. They do this so there seeds must be bought again, but think of the problems that has to potential to bring. Edited October 18, 2013 by Ailurophobia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringer Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/10/18/163034053/top-five-myths-of-genetically-modified-seeds-busted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iRNAblogger Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 I have mixed feelings about Monsanto's approach to agriculture. While I am not really against the genetic modification of plants (I think it has some pretty important uses in today's society, and it appears to be harmless to humans) I don't see it as a sustainable approach to agriculture (the fact that most [or all? not sure] GM plants are sterile prevents farmers from diversifying their crop based on artificial selection of desirable traits. Instead of choosing which corn to collect seed from, the corn that is disease- or cold- or drought-resistant, the farmer now chooses from Monsanto's selection of disease- or cold- or drought-resistant seed. This system is much more efficient, I suppose, but it doesn't appear sustainable). We will have to see how the practice of agriculture continues to evolve with access to GM crops. I think that we have seen the beneficial side of GM crops, increased yield, decreased losses, etc., but now we will soon begin to see the consequences, if there actually are any. Also I totally agree pippo, it does sound like Star Trek! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippo Posted December 7, 2013 Author Share Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) (sorry for late reply/follow up- ben to busy) Thaks, people, for the replies. Good to know proteins are not harmful. Im just trying to get more educated about the gmo concept. One good article (scientific source, credible) said overall, the net effect of gMO's is positive to the environment, and to humans. I just struggle daily with al the bunk which dominated the general public's perception/affirmations/contradictions/hypocrisy of GMO's. For example, if youre a Organic only fanatic, you should embrace gmo's, since gmo's favor the use of occasional increase of herbicides, but LESS pesticides, and pesticides are by far more toxic to the ecosystem. a Respectable ecology research firm in the UK found a net positive effect. Im eating gmo food, like any other food. Also, organic/non organic- no matter for me. Edited December 7, 2013 by pippo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 (On The Topic Of Histeria) I'm not exactly against the engineering of crops, but have you heard of Monsanto's "Terminator Seed"? It essentially produces a non-fertile seed so that it can't be reused. They do this so there seeds must be bought again, but think of the problems that has to potential to bring. Or, you can just carry on using the sameseed supplies that you always have done. Also, they don't do it "so the seed must be bought again". They do it because they were told very clearly to make sure that GM crops didn't escape into the wider environment. This terminator technology does that . And now there are complaints about them doing what they were told to do. Also the idea that plants produce their own pesticides doesn't sound like Star Trek to me. It sounds like what plants have been doing for millions of years. What do you think poisonous plants are doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippo Posted December 7, 2013 Author Share Posted December 7, 2013 Good points, John. And Yes, we shouldnt blame Monsanto for the terminator concept. Makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overtone Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 (edited) Generally insecticidal proteins from Bacillus thurigiensis are being expressed by the plant. These proteins are known to be harmless to humans. In fact the bacterium and its toxin have been used widely for pest control before the production of GMOs. That's not quite true. Bt pesticides (they are a family of related chemicals each adapted to a particular pest or type of pest) are generally as benign a pesticide as we know of, but their effects on such things as human intestinal flora under long term steady dosage, pregnancy and other such conditions, etc, have not been studied. http://ucbiotech.org/answer.php?question=31 But they do not bioaccumulate, poison indiscriminately, etc - so their loss of effectiveness, a very likely to inevitable effect of genetically engieneering them into landscape dominant monocultures, is one of the serious costs of GMOs as we have them. For example, if youre a Organic only fanatic, you should embrace gmo's, since gmo's favor the use of occasional increase of herbicides, but LESS pesticides, and pesticides are by far more toxic to the ecosystem False three ways: Herbicides are just as environmentally and ecologically problematical as pesticides (fungicides are probably worse than either), GMOs in general have no consistent effect on the use of any agricultural chemical (it depends on the particular modification, they are all different), and organic "fanatics" (such as the people who avoided eating trans fats all those years when all the sober scientific types had declared them safe) have almost nothing in the way of GMOs avaialble to them - all the marketed GMOs are engineered to express or be dependent on aspects of industrial agriculture that organic fanatics try to avoid. It's quite possible that a GMO could present a sort of philosophical challange to organic food preference - such as chestnuts from an American chestnut tree (the best nut producers) with engineered in blight resistance from a naturally resistant Asian chestnut tree - but these potential benefits of genetic engineering do not yet exist commercially. One good article (scientific source, credible) said overall, the net effect of gMO's is positive to the environment, and to humans Nobody knows yet whether or not that will be true. So far, the indications are negative - the more benign herbicides and pesticides are the ones being destroyed (their replacements look ugly at present), the gains in erosion from no-till are offset by the loss of set-aside land and increased use of fertilizer, the spread of resistance abetted by GMOs as well as the threat of actual code transfer has effects not yet studied but unlikely to be either minor or for the better, the reassurances that there would be no medical or physiological effect on humans seem to have been based on assumptions not met in practice, and so forth. Also, they don't do it "so the seed must be bought again". They do it because they were told very clearly to make sure that GM crops didn't escape into the wider environment. The increase in their opportunity for profits and economic power was not invisible to them. The fact that untill forced they did nothing to make sure their engineerred code did not escape is worth noting - it's probably a good idea to make sure we can continue to force them to take ordinary precautions, and not get ourselves in a position, say, where we or anyone else sharing our ecosystem were dependent on them for our food supply. Edited December 9, 2013 by overtone -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 "Bt pesticides (they are a family of related chemicals each adapted to a particular pest or type of pest) are generally as benign a pesticide as we know of, but their effects on such things as human intestinal flora under long term steady dosage, pregnancy and other such conditions, etc, have not been studied" Guess again. Since they have been used for a long time and no effects have shown up we know that, at worst, they don't have much effect on, for exapmple, pregnant women. There has been no carefully controlled trial, but the practical truth is that we know they don't do much damage. Of course, this may reflect that fat that pregnant women don't generally eat much raw cotton. That's just as well because cotton is known to be toxic to humans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gossypol#Toxicity_and_potential_food_source "But they do not bioaccumulate, poison indiscriminately, etc - so their loss of effectiveness, a very likely to inevitable effect of genetically engieneering them into landscape dominant monocultures, is one of the serious costs of GMOs as we have them"so, your complaint about GM is that it won't work for ever? A bit like conventional pesticides the, isn't it? Anyway, because the stuff isn't sprayed about it only reaches the target organisms (those that eat the protected plants) so it can only expect to induce resistance in those insects. that reduces the pressure of the "insects in general" genome to come up with resistance. So, targeting only those bugs we want to kill will lead to less selection pressure for resistance to evolve. "The increase in their opportunity for profits and economic power was not invisible to them." Nor to their opponents. So? "The fact that untill forced they did nothing to make sure their engineerred code did not escape is worth noting" Yes, it indicates that they were happy to live in a world where these things were "free" in the world. So they must have known that these things were safe. Now, I contend that those people know more about GMO than you (or I) do. They are happy to let these organisms out into the wild i.e into their own living space. Is you reluctance built on evidence or prejudice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 With regards to Bt toxins, they appear to be less harmful when being expressed in tissue rather than simply being sprayed (which can also be done). The latter of course provides more sources of exposure. The general consensus in the literature appears to be that based on existing studies the effects are overall less harmful than the often unrestrained spraying with pesticides. Most studies that have shown effects e.g. on mice in limited studies tend not to replicate their findings in larger or meta-analyses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overtone Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) There has been no carefully controlled trial, but the practical truth is that we know they don't do much damage We have almost no practical experience with the GMO inabled ingestion of Bt, or the other medical etc side effects of somatic expression of it in a food plant - it's not the same as the exposure regimes common in use of it thus far. Even less have we studied the ecological effects, as was shown by the reaction to the onset of honeybee collapse disorder - studies were begun at that time, into the possible effects of Bt on the most thorougly studied and best known insect on the planet as it was living in the most controlled and simplified semi-domesticated circumstances of any wild animal. They didn't know, you see, what those effects might be. They are still looking into them. And yes, as noted repeatedly now and central to this matter -> there have been no carefully controlled trials <-. Remember that when the urge to demand evidence from such trials strikes you as you read my posts. Of course, this may reflect that fat that pregnant women don't generally eat much raw cotton. They do eat corn and beans. "The increase in their opportunity for profits and economic power was not invisible to them." Nor to their opponents. So? So the excuse that they were "forced" somehow is bogus. They manipulated the approval process for their economic benefit, at the cost of imposing serious risks both known and unknown on everything and everyone else. With regards to Bt toxins, they appear to be less harmful when being expressed in tissue rather than simply being sprayed (which can also be done). The latter of course provides more sources of exposure. The general consensus in the literature appears to be that based on existing studies the effects are overall less harmful than the often unrestrained spraying with pesticides. The appearance of less harm is not derived from actual studies, which have not been done. It is derived from a systematic overlooking of obviously worrisome circumstances, by those who would have to pay for the necessary research. The observation that the overlooking is systematic is supported by noting that some research has been done and published, all of it into matters supporting a conclusion of overall benefit - such as the potential reduction in mycotoxin ingestion from eating corn free of earwom damage. Bt as used up until now has been one of the safest, most benign pesticides available, but it is expensive (different pests require different versions, etc) and therefore seldom sprayed without restraint or even used topically at all in industrial agriculture. Its effectiveness has been protected quite well over the years - occasional spot resistance from marginal overuse has been dealt with - and it is one of the more valuable families of pesticide we have; critical, even, to any prospect of "organic" agriculture. So its destruction by irresponsible genetic engineering deployments is a serious harm, currently in progress. Most studies that have shown effects e.g. on mice in limited studies tend not to replicate their findings in larger or meta-analyses. There have been few, if any (not sure what you are referring to) larger studies replicating the smaller worrisome ones. The proponents of GMOs as currently being deployed generally content themselves with noting the deficiencies in the smaller public studies, and referring to the lack of bad news from the small minority of private corporate studies that have been made public. That is what is referred to on this forum as "scientific evidence" of safety. Which brings us to this entirely typical example of the kind of reasoning being deployed in support of these GMO deployments - read and weep: "The fact that untill forced they did nothing to make sure their engineerred code did not escape is worth noting" Yes, it indicates that they were happy to live in a world where these things were "free" in the world. So they must have known that these things were safe. Expert scientists, the best and brightest in their fields, have over the years filled their own world, their pregnant wives, their children's environment, and the surrounding landscape of birds and butterflies and flowers and trees and cute little squirrels, with nuclear fallout, tetraethyl lead aerosols, trans fats, DDT, asbestos, various teratogenic and carcinogenic "consumer" products, high altitude ozone destroyers, low altitude ozone, biologically active heavy metal compounds, napalm and nerve gas constituents, estrogen and other hormone mimics, and the waste products of manufacturing all this stuff. That's without even mentioning cigarettes, fertilizer, weedkiller, and other stuff their children could maybe be shielded from. And that was mostly stuff they knew all about. Their prudence and foresight into matters they know nothing about is even less reliable for public safety. Edited December 10, 2013 by overtone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) "So the excuse that they were "forced" somehow is bogus." "The fact that untill forced they did nothing to make sure their engineerred code did not escape is worth noting" nuclear fallout, napalm and nerve gas constituents Nope, not the scientists- that was the military. "tetraethyl lead aerosols" Anyone who aerosolised TEL is likely to be dead. "asbestos" Seriously? the stuff was used by the Romans, yout you are trying to blame science for it? "various teratogenic and carcinogenic "consumer" products" Which ones? Do you mean beer? "That's without even mentioning cigarettes," Good, unless you can show that they were a product of science. "That's without even mentioning ..., fertilizer," Now you are pretty close to literally talking S**t And so on. Of course the real issue with nearly all of the things you mentioned is that they were introduced before testing became the norm. You may have missed this, but things are now tested quite extensively. So, unlike DDT (roe example) the scientists have done the tests and they are now making an informed choice to live in the same world as GMO. Edited December 10, 2013 by John Cuthber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 The appearance of less harm is not derived from actual studies, which have not been done. It is derived from a systematic overlooking of obviously worrisome circumstances, by those who would have to pay for the necessary research. This is an interesting statement, considering that there are quite a few researchers out there that try to do proper risk evaluation. What the current literature shows is that Bt exposure by spraying are generally minimal, the major worry being allergenic responses (see e.g. Berstein et al env health persp 1999). Since then studies have been ongoing looking into health as well as environmental aspects. As I mentioned, effects that have been found were often subject to methodological errors or were not reproducible. As a result, a few papers (most recently by Seralini et al. on herbicide resistant GMO crop) were retracted. Not only are those studies no ignored, but in contrast, they are under high exposure (and related scrutiny). In contrast to that, based on what I have read, the potential allergenic responses to spray exposure were fairly convincing and reproducible (including a few human studies, which is quite remarkable) whereas the same was not found in GMOs. Though to be fair, there are still more studies underway and a few initial results could reveal something interesting should they be validated this time. In any case I fail to see how one can claim that there are no studies available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overtone Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) In any case I fail to see how one can claim that there are no studies available. My claims were 1) that there were few, if any, large scale replications of the small scale worrisome studies in mice you unspecifically mentioned. Counterevidence would be the posting of a few such studies. 2) That in general the specific new hazards of GMO Bt deployment (ingestion, wider demographic exposure, resistance breeding, environmental spread, etc) have not been studied, so that any claim of less hazard than the quite minimal ones associated (and studied) with spraying was not based on research performed. You support that by providing what appear to be representative examples of the research done, which are almost entirely on things like allergic reactions to spray exposure, and do not include studies of - say - intestinal flora in children with and without Bt engineered crops in their diet. Not only are those studies no ignored, but in contrast, they are under high exposure (and related scrutiny). Exactly as I pointed out - "The proponents of GMOs as currently being deployed generally content themselves with noting the deficiencies in the smaller public studies, and referring to the lack of bad news from the small minority of private corporate studies that have been made public." What is missing is the larger scale rigorous studies of those worrisome symptoms, studies that would satisfy the scrutinizers who find the smaller studies unpersuasive. We see scrutiny, criticism, but a dearth of replication or followup. And from this gap, safety is inferred. That is a dangerous situation. Never mind the obvious and incoming destruction of Bt's effectiveness, which will impose the risks of other, less benign pesticides and other, more expensive "organic" practices. - - - "So the excuse that they were "forced" somehow is bogus." "The fact that untill forced they did nothing to make sure their engineered code did not escape is worth noting" There's no contradiction there. They arranged to be forced to add otherwise unpopular and risky but profitable terminator code, as a means escaping a costly curb or even outright ban on what was obviously an unstudied and hazardous package of GMOs. Clever win - for them. Nope, not the scientists- that was the military. LOL. You are joking, I hope? What's next? It's not the scientists, it's the corporations? "tetraethyl lead aerosols" Anyone who aerosolised TEL is likely to be dead. Deliberately volatilized lead compounds from the burning of tetraethyl lead were kicked out into the air from every tailpipe in every car in the US for decades. And the scientists working for Standard Oil and Chevron and so forth who "set it free" drove those cars themselves. "asbestos" Seriously? the stuff was used by the Romans, yout you are trying to blame science for it? It wasn't used by the Romans to insulate their children's schools, added to cigarette filters, packed into brake linings on cars and spread all over thestreets and countryside (there's that arena again), and so forth. Modern materials scientists working for big American corporations did that. "various teratogenic and carcinogenic "consumer" products" Which ones? Do you mean beer? Flame retardants in children's pajamas, furniture fabric treatments, detergents and household cleaners, various common garage and shop supplies, additives in food, food containers, and cooking gear - there's a very long list. "That's without even mentioning cigarettes," Good, unless you can show that they were a product of science You apparently have no idea how products are developed in this country. Of course the real issue with nearly all of the things you mentioned is that they were introduced before testing became the norm. The issue with all those things is that the scientists launching them into the environment had plenty of information and were or should have been well aware of the hazards - and did it anyway. The big oil scientists who arranged for biologically active lead compounds to be emitted from car exhausts everywhere had full and explicit warning of the effects of such things, and even direct first person accounts of the harms suffered by the early workers with tetraethyl lead itself, and did it anyway - not only did it, but fought attempts to curb it; not only fought attempts to curb it, but when they lost replaced it with MMT and MBTE and other toxic additives, which they likewise fought to keep after critics got them into court again. And so will behave any scientists working for a GMO producing agribusiness. You may have missed this, but things are now tested quite extensively. Some of them. GMOs are often (all the commercial ones, for example) too time consuming and expensive to test extensively - the range of possible harms is too large and complex, and the field is too new. So, unlike DDT (roe example) the scientists have done the tests and they are now making an informed choice to live in the same world as GMO. DDT was tested more thoroughly than any GMO now on the market has been, long before Silent Spring - indications of serious trouble with it were well known in the 1940s, but the corporate scientists working on delivery systems and new uses and so forth fought all restrictions on its employment, and continued to develop new compounds and delivery vehicles and so forth well into the late 1960s. Edited December 10, 2013 by overtone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Does this look familiar? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtcXXbuR244 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overtone Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Does this look familiar? http://www.youtube.c...h?v=gtcXXbuR244 That's going to be ignored. I don't have the time, patience, or computer capability to slog through youtube videos linked by someone who thinks scientists were not involved in producing cigarettes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 My strawman detector just started beeping. How odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overtone Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 My strawman detector just started beeping. How odd. Three down, I think three to go. A genuine discussion of GMOs is not that far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 "The proponents of GMOs as currently being deployed generally content themselves with noting the deficiencies in the smaller public studies, and referring to the lack of bad news from the small minority of private corporate studies that have been made public." What is missing is the larger scale rigorous studies of those worrisome symptoms, studies that would satisfy the scrutinizers who find the smaller studies unpersuasive. We see scrutiny, criticism, but a dearth of replication or followup. And from this gap, safety is inferred. That is a dangerous situation You are misunderstanding something here. The small-scale studies are those that find risks. Upscaled ones or longer running tests tend not to find it anymore. Obviously there are no large-scale human population studies as, well these GMOs are not in widespread use for human consumption. Both, small and large scale studies are being conducted on bacteria, rats (as mammalian model) and arthropods. The worrisome effects that were found associated with GMOs were mostly found in rat studies, but, to repeat myself, these effects were not reproducible in larger scale and subsequent studies. Note that statistically, effects are overestimated in small-scale studies rather than in large-scale ones. Just to provide some recent lit: Effects of Bt cotton on non-target pests (Sujii et al. Neotrop Entomol. 2013 Feb;42(1):102-11; Li et al. Insect Sci. 2013 May 27) Effects of Bt rice on mice: Wang et al Food Chem Toxicol. 2013 Dec;62:390-6. Schroder et al Food Chem Toxicol. 2007 Mar;45(3):339-49 Effects of Bt crop on bacterial communities Singh et al. Microb Ecol. 2013 Nov;66(4):927-39 Are these studies sufficient to assess safety? Well, this is the big question, and as usual, more research is always beneficial. But in context one should note that many chemicals that we freely release into the environment and that enter our food chain are much less regulated. Realistically I would be much more worried about persistent chemicals such as halogenated compounds (that are already found accumulated in food and wildlife) for example. The latter is a real current issue that tends to get ignored. For some reasons people find that less scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringer Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 (edited) Saying there haven't been many studies done on GMOs is an outright falsehood. Here are around 200 different ones based on consumption alone. These were taken from a list of ~1700 studies on GMOs I found somewhere (I forget where) Andrew C 2002 Assuring the safety of genetically modified (GM) foods: the importance of an holistic, integrative approach Journal of Biotechnology Bucchini L,Goldman LR 2002 Starlink corn: a risk analysis Environmental Health Perspectives Chambers PA,Duggan PS,Heritage J,Forbes JM 2002 The fate of antibiotic resistance marker genes in transgenic plant feed material fed to chickens Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy Chassy BM 2002 Food Safety Evaluation of Crops Produced through Biotechnology Journal of the American College of Nutrition Cromwell GL,Lindemann MD,Randolph JH,Parker GR,Coffey RD,Laurent KM,Armstrong CL,Mikel WB,Stanisiewski EP,Hartnell GF 2002 Soybean meal from roundup ready or conventional soybeans in diets for growing-finishing swine Journal of Animal Science Folmer JD,Grant RJ,Milton CT,Beck J 2002 Utilization of Bt corn residues by grazing beef steers and Bt corn silage and grain by growing beef cattle and lactating dairy cows Journal of Animal Science Harlander SK 2002 Safety Assessments and Public Concern for Genetically Modified Food Products: The American View Toxicologic Pathology Hefle SL,Taylor SL 2002 How much food is too much? Threshold doses for allergenic foods Current Allergy and Asthma Reports Helm RM 2002 Biotechnology and food allergy Current Allergy and Asthma Reports Heritage J 2002 Degradation of Transgenic DNA from Genetically Modified Soyabean and Maize in Human Intestinal Simulations British Journal of Nutrition Hino A 2002 Safety Assessment and Public Concerns for Genetically Modified Food Products: The Japanese Experience Toxicologic Pathology Kharazmi M,Hammes WP,Hertel C 2002 Construction of a Marker Rescue System in Bacillus subtilis for Detection of Horizontal Gene Transfer in Food Systematic and Applied Microbiology Kimber I,Dearman RJ 2002 Approaches to Assessment of the Allergenic Potential of Novel Proteins in Food from Genetically Modified Crops Toxicological Sciences Malatesta M,Caporaloni C,Gavaudan S,Rocchi MBL,Serafini S,Tiberi C,Gazzanelli G 2002 Ultrastructural morphometrical and immunocytochemical analyses of hepatocyte nuclei from mice fed on genetically modified soybean Cell structure and function Malatesta M,Caporaloni C,Rossi L,Battistelli S,Rocchi MBL,Tonucci F,Gazzanelli G 2002 Ultrastructural analysis of pancreatic acinar cells from mice fed on genetically modified soybean Journal of anatomy Martín-Orúe SM,O'Donnell AG,Ariño J,Netherwood T,Gilbert HJ,Mathers JC 2002 Degradation of Transgenic DNA from Genetically Modified Soya and Maize in Human Intestinal Simulations British Journal of Nutrition Moseley BEB 2002 Safety Assessment and Public Concern for Genetically Modified Food Products: The European View Toxicologic Pathology Murai A,Kobayashi T,Okada T,Okumura J 2002 Improvement of growth and nutritive value in chicks with non-genetically modified phytase product from Aspergillus niger British Poultry Science Nair RS,Fuchs RL,Schuette SA 2002 Current Methods for Assessing Safety of Genetically Modified Crops as Exemplified by Data on Roundup Ready 1 Soybeans Toxicologic Pathology Okunuki H,Teshima R,Shigeta T,Sakushima J-i,Akiyama H,Goda Y,Toyoda M,Sawada J-i 2002 Increased digestibility of two products in genetically modified food (CP4-EPSPS and Cry1Ab) after preheating Shokuhin eiseigaku zasshi. Journal of the Food Hygienic Society of Japan Pastorello EA,Pravettoni V,Calamari AM,Banfi E,Robino AM 2002 New plant-origin food allergens Allergy Poulsen LK 2002 Prediction of allergenicity of gene-modified foods by serum-based testing Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences Privalle LS 2002 Phosphomannose isomerase, a novel plant selection system: potential allergenicity assessment Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences Reuter T,Aulrich K,Berk A,Flachowsky G 2002 Investigations on genetically modified maize (Bt-maize) in pig nutrition: chemical composition and nutritional evaluation Archiv für Tierernährung Taylor SL 2002 Protein allergenicity assessment of foods produced through agricultural biotechnology Annual review of pharmacology and toxicology Taylor SL,Hefle SL 2002 Genetically engineered foods: implications for food allergy Current Opinion in Allergy and Clinical Immunology Taylor SL,Hefle SL,Bindslev-Jensen C,Bock SA,Burks AW, Jr.,Christie L,Hill DJ,Host A,Hourihane JOb,Lack G,Metcalfe DD,Moneret-Vautrin DA,Vadas PA,Rance F,Skrypec DJ,Trautman TA,Yman IM,Zeiger RS 2002 Factors affecting the determination of threshold doses for allergenic foods: how much is too much? The Journal of allergy and clinical immunology Teshima R,Watanabe T,Okunuki H,Isuzugawa K,Akiyama H,Onodera H,Imai T,Toyoda M,Sawada J-i 2002 Effect of subchronic feeding of genetically modified corn (CBH351) on immune system in BN rats and B10A mice Shokuhin eiseigaku zasshi. 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Association Zhu Y,He X,Luo Y,Zou S,Zhou X,Huang K,Xu W 2012 A 90-day feeding study of glyphosate-tolerant maize with the G2-aroA gene in Sprague-Dawley rats Food and chemical toxicology: an international journal published for the British Industrial Biological Research Association Zurzolo GA,Mathai ML,Koplin JJ,Allen KJ 2012 Hidden allergens in foods and implications for labelling and clinical care of food allergic patients Current Allergy and Asthma Reports Petrick JS,Brower-Toland B,Jackson AL,Kier LD 2013 Safety assessment of food and feed from biotechnology-derived crops employing RNA-mediated gene regulation to achieve desired traits: A scientific review Regulatory toxicology and pharmacology Edited December 11, 2013 by Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overtone Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 You are misunderstanding something here. No, you need to simply read my posts. They are largely simple, declarative sentences The small-scale studies are those that find risks. Upscaled ones or longer running tests tend not to find it anymore. My claim was that there were few, if any, large scale studies that replicated the small scale ones. If that claim holds - and no one has posted even one counterexample - the fact that different research into different circumstances has different results may be true but hardly matters. The worrisome effects that were found associated with GMOs were mostly found in rat studies, but, to repeat myself, these effects were not reproducible in larger scale and subsequent studies My claim is that few if any of the large scale studies replicate the smaller worrisome ones. The European peer-reviewed and respectably published study of 200 rats, divvied up into combinations (including controls) fed for two years on various regimens of glyphosate resistant rat chow, was recently withdrawn under hard public pressure for vague reasons, most of them handwaving at the idea that too few rats were involved for conclusive significance - but the obvious followup (one that would have made such politically suspect withdrawal unnecessary for their purpose), replication using more rats, remains unaccomplished. People are simply referring to Monsanto's "large scale" study that was the basis for EU approval of its seeds - but that one was only a 90 day feeding trial of a couple of groups. Obviously there are no large-scale human population studies as, well these GMOs are not in widespread use for human consumption. No multicellular GMO has been thoroughly checked out with large scale human population studies. That gap in the knowledge is one major source of risk for most of them. Are these studies sufficient to assess safety? Well, this is the big question, and as usual, more research is always beneficial. Please. The answer to the big question is no, of course not. More research is not just "beneficial" but absolutely necessary for any kind of responsible decisionmaking, and that prior - not subsequent - to mass deployment and conversion of continental agriculture. Yes, the issues are multifacted and complex, the necessary research time consuming and expensive and very inconvenient - but if it isn't done, the risks are run. Don't deny or downplay the risks because the research necessary to settle things is too costly in time, money, or labor. But in context one should note that many chemicals that we freely release into the environment and that enter our food chain are much less regulated. Realistically I would be much more worried about persistent chemicals such as halogenated compounds (that are already found accumulated in food and wildlife) for example. The latter is a real current issue that tends to get ignored. For some reasons people find that less scary. In the first place, all comparisons with chemical pollutants and such badly mislead. As with the supposed continuation of ordinary breeding efforts, it overlooks exactly the major costs and risks of this new capability and arena of innovation. In the second, that is a bit angering. Do I really need to gather the arguments and evidence and so forth to recall to anyone's mind here the kinds of responses received by all the "people" - many, many, loud and obvious people - over all these years who have been worried about such stuff, promoting "organic" food for example? IIRC they were called "fearmongers" as well, mocked because they were presumably scared, found amusingly ignorant compared with the scientific types that were patiently explaining to them (without the slightest tendency to namecalling, ad hominem argument, mockery of presumed emotional foolishness, etc, of course) that there was no "scientific" evidence of any harm from such pollutants. It's the same damnfool "argument", over and over, when the big money buckets don't want the spigot shut off. But to return: of course informed people are more worried about genetic engineering mishaps than background rises in toxin concentrations - they are potentially more dangerous, more costly, even more difficult to handle, and so forth. Even the simpler and more directly approachable risks can be startlingly disruptive in potential - pick one: if it does turn out that the effect on human gut flora of the digestion products and genetic swapouts created after eating food from glyphosate-resistant crops is seriously bad, a source of risk not noticed until several years after deployment, the necessry advance research having been somehow omitted from the program, and just now begun to be investigated then what is the US going to do? Saying there haven't been many studies done on GMOs is an outright falsehood. Good thing nobody said that, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 (edited) That's going to be ignored. I don't have the time, patience, or computer capability to slog through youtube videos linked by someone who thinks scientists were not involved in producing cigarettes. Yeah, right. From wiki "The earliest forms of cigarettes were similar to their predecessor, the cigar. Cigarettes appear to have had antecedents in Mexico and Central America around the 9th century in the form of reeds and smoking tubes. The Maya, and later the Aztecs, smoked tobacco and various psychoactive drugs in religious rituals and frequently depicted priests and deities smoking on pottery and temple engravings. The cigarette and the cigar were the most common methods of smoking in the Caribbean, Mexico and Central and South America until recent times" The scientists may have been involved in tweaking the design, but the fundamental idea of deliberately breathing the smoke from burning plant matter 1) is the cause of the health problems and 2) was there long before any scientists. So, what you have effectively said is "I'm not going to listen to evidence from someone who doesn't agree with me." That's soapboxing. . Saying there haven't been many studies done on GMOs is an outright falsehood. Good thing nobody said that, then. And yes, as noted repeatedly now and central to this matter -> there have been no carefully controlled trials <-. Remember that when the urge to demand evidence from such trials strikes you as you read my posts. Close enough for most people I think Edited December 11, 2013 by John Cuthber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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