Why did I turn away?

[tar]

Early this morning I was watching local news and they had footage of the first gay marriages in NJ, performed by the Mayor of Newark, soon to be NJ's senator.

 

The first couple, two women, gave each other a loving gentle kiss on the mouth.

The second couple, two women, gave a quite lewd passionate tounge kiss, that the camera cut short.

The third couple two men, went to kiss, and as I saw their mouths headed for each other...I looked away. I can't report the nature of the kiss.

 

Why did I look away?

 

TAR

Edited October 22, 2013 by tar

[StringJunky]

Because you don't like seeing it? I have no problem with seeing them kiss as in one of a very short duration... it's seeing snogging I can't stand, even with the opposite sexes involved. It's not for my eyes as far as I'm concerned.

 

It's ok to not like seeing something and yet still be accepting of it. You are not being weird.

[Iota]

There was a topic on this a while back, can't remember which it was though. Turns out a lot of us do the same thing... not sure why that is, but it's not indicative of intolerance by any means though, IMO.

[iNow]

You've been taught that it's gross (and that lesson has been reinforced socially by those around you), and we don't generally like seeing gross things. Teach yourself that it's natural (since, after all, it is... two people who love one another being affectionate is a very natural thing) and perhaps you'll soon look at it like you would a butterfly on a flower pedal... Something perfectly natural that doesn't warrant a response of disgust.

 

You were disgusted. That's why you looked away. Remind yourself regularly that there is nothing disgusting about two people loving one another and perhaps you can extinguish the response.

Since you missed it the first time, here's another chance for you to look inward and explore why you turned away when this was first presented to you:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQdlNd-Z39o

[EdEarl]

I find it hard to watch two men kiss because it makes me think of kissing a man, which makes me feel uncomfortable. Yet, I accept that two men can love and be in love, and have good friendships with gay guys.

[Tridimity]

TAR,

 

I'm not sure what your moral stance is with regards homosexual relations however your response may well reflect the innate reaction to potentially dangerous (in this case, infectious) situations - humans seem to have acquired this trait as a means of conferring protection against potentially lethal pathogens. It is the same reason we prefer to look away when presented with the sight of an open wound that is harbouring bacteria, or from moldy bread. In this case, I would posit, the potential hazard is the transfer of bacteria and possibly viruses from one person to another via the saliva. The fact that you averted your attention from the male-male kiss only is potentially interesting - perhaps it signifies that you are more comfortable with female homosexual relations than with their male counterparts. I'm struggling to think of possible reasons for this.

 

Personally I do not like to witness couples of any sexual orientation kissing; perhaps partly as a result of the aforementioned phenomenon, but also because a kiss is an intensely private affair - it is intended as an expression of love between only the two people involved and to witness it as a third party feels like robbing the couple of the very intimacy of their relationship.

[tar]

Tridimity and iNow and EdEarl,

 

I did watch the ceremony, without sound, and with iNow's approval,and EdEarl's acceptance, and with Tridimity's suggestion that I really don't have any reason to look away.

 

Perhaps morally I have no issue. I have no reason to deny two people a private relationship. But publically, I at first shunned the two, and have been advised that "its alright" by people I respect, so I looked at it the second time with that reinforcement.

 

I do not think our reactions to such things are a completely private affair. We sort of tell each other what is OK and what we should shun.

 

A natural reaction that the people around us support us to learn to avoid.

 

Morally my feelings about gays are mixed. I accept it, have relatives who I love, that are, and have had good friends that were, but I do not seek the company of gays or cheer their "victory", or think anal sex between any individuals is advisable (or not disgusting) and generally retain a feeling that there must be something wrong with individuals who on purpose go against societal rules.

 

Some cognitive dissonance produced in my own head, as I struggle to find the right way to feel about it, that satisfies my sensibilities.

 

I will have to watch again with sound, and see if the oaths they took include me as a participant, before I comment further.

 

Regards, TAR2

Gathered there in the presence of friends and family. The mayor said there were no objections, but did not ask the assembled if there were. My consent was never sought, nor promised to the couple.

If anyone HAD objected, would the ceremony have been halted and made to listen to the objection?

Edited October 22, 2013 by tar

[Greg H.]

My consent was never sought, nor promised to the couple.

 

Your consent is unnecessary for them to be happy, healthy, and committed to one another.

[Tridimity]

there must be something wrong with individuals who on purpose go against societal rules

 

 

There are no fixed societal rules. If there were, females would still be unable to vote, black individuals would not be allowed to sit next to white people on public transport, and the working classes would have a far more limited access to healthcare and education. The issue with homosexuality is not unique in this sense - for some reason it has just taken society longer to come to terms with the changes in public opinion - perhaps because homosexuals are in a minority more so than is the case with females, or black people, or working class individuals respectively.

 

You are not taking into consideration what it must feel like to be a person of homosexual orientation; to constantly be told that you are not what you think you are, or that even if you are, you are not allowed to be you. Imagine a person who is born of female sex and is constantly told by society, 'You are not female' or 'You are not allowed to be female; if you persist in being female we will punish you and ostracise you from the community.' The situations are directly comparable. Being homosexual is not a conscious decision, any more than having blue eyes is a conscious decision - it just is a part of the innate identity of certain individuals.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Tridimity

[tar]

Just lost a post. Thanks anyway for the counseling session you just gave me, that you will never know about.

[Tridimity]

^Hm?

 

I just figured why you may be more comfortable with viewing female-female kisses than male-male kisses: because (if you are heterosexual, which statistically is most probable) then you may find the ladies concerned to be attractive, or neutral, at least not repulsive. Viewing the two ladies kissing therefore is not uncomfortable in any way as you can imagine yourself kissing either one of them without too much grief. However, the male-male kiss is different because you do not find other men sexually attractive and so, when you view them kissing one another, you associate it with yourself kissing another man, which to you is repulsive. Hence why you may be able to accept the concept of homosexuality on an intellectual level but not on a visceral level. Can't believe it took me all day to reach that hypothesis*.

 

*which is basically a re-hash of what EdEarl suggested yesterday

Edited October 22, 2013 by Tridimity

[tar]

Tridimity,

 

I think that about sums it up. Makes sense to me. Sort of a mirror neuron thing.

 

We would not turn away from a picture of anyone guiding a tasty morsel of sweet or savory food, toward their mouth (in fact we might salivate a bit)...but a hot poker, or a spider, or a rattle snake or anything exceeding smelly or bitter or sour or hot, that we would not try to get a taste of ourselves, might indeed cause one to turn away, or close their eyes, or shield their eyes to prevent those particular mirror neurons from firing. At least our face would contort a little and our eyes squint up and an appropiate utterance (ewh or ugh or ouch or whatever) might begin forming in our throats, and our tounge and cheeks and lips and jaw would begin to prepare for the event.

 

It would probably be an interesting study to turn around and look at a crowd at a game or a play or a speech, and watch the grimaces and nods and twitches and neck and facial and mouth and eye movements. You probably would not miss much of the action, you could read it in their faces.

 

So this question of mine, might not belong in this section...but maybe it might be related to sociopathology, or at least how we get our social cues from one another. How we sort of know what other people are focusing on, and thinking about, without any magic telepathy going on.

 

This mirror neuron thing, might work on some deeper levels as well, when it comes to complex emotions and thoughts?

 

Hum.

 

Regards, TAR2

Do we have a social psychology speculation section? I think I might have a topic.

 

Is there an economy of sonance, a virtual marketplace of sonance where one person's cognitive dissonace is lessened at the expense of another's sonance?

Could explain a lot about politics, and the camps that form around ideas, as one mind puckers up and gets ready for a kiss (or tasty bit of food), and another mind turns away (or gets ready for bitterness and pain).

Might belong in philosophy and religion as we befriend those who bolster our sonance, and turn the sonance stealers away.

Perhaps we should all operate on a level aware of the expense of our own sonance to others.

And give up a little of our own sonance to lessen the dissonance of those around us.

 

Perhaps we already do this.

When we call that sick relative dispite our reluctance to experience their pain.

And the currency might be trust.

That we gain or lose, or hoard or spend, or create or squander.

iNow,

 

Perhaps my attempt at being market maker in the sonance market, between Overtone and jduff last week, left me bankrupt, as neither would take a bid or make an offer and the spread got too wide for me to bear. Partially explains a breakdown I had at work on Friday, where I actually cried at work, infront of my co-workers. First time I ever did that.

 

Regards, Basket case

Edited October 24, 2013 by tar

[Tridimity]

Partially explains a breakdown I had at work on Friday, where I actually cried at work, infront of my co-workers. First time I ever did that.

 

 

Hugs

[tar]

thanks, I really appreciate that

 

Hug back. and I am a rather good hugger, and you deserve my best.

[Tridimity]

thanks, I really appreciate that

 

Hug back. and I am a rather good hugger, and you deserve my best.