mattrsmith88 Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Space has no time. only the physical objects within the space seem to age. space does not age, it just changes. It has always been there, and always will be. Thats the thing humans will never be able to comprehend, there is no creator, because you cant create something that has no beginning or end, just like it has no boundaries, it will be endless.
Kowalski Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 I don't agree . We begin with time , time is a quantity that we can define or measure by something that has a periodic nature , for example on earth we're measuring time according to the movement of earth , the day is always 24 hours . but in space the problem is just the reference , but it's not difficult , we can take the movement of any planet around the sun as a reference and count the age of the universe , " we can say for example 2000 mars years " . Although we can't really measure it precisely because the universe has been created since a long time , and the period in which we've been in it is negligible . No one has a conclusive scientific evidence whether the universe has been created or not and whether it has a beginning and an end , there only some hypothesis such as big bang theory which says that the universe is expanding . At the end , the idea of the universe is endless is beyond imagination , it has to have limits , we're just tiny beings and perhaps we represent nothing in the scale of the universe , that's why we can't conceive it's magnitude .
mattrsmith88 Posted October 27, 2013 Author Posted October 27, 2013 (edited) We measure time because we have a end, and physically experience time. the earth, the sun everything that has mass in the universe ages, space has no mass. Time is not a constant. The big bang is a theory for our universe (milky way), there is be more than one. More than likely a super massive star that collapsed and turned into that massive black hole in the centre of the milky way. And any explosion would push everything out so it would seem we are expanding, into space that was already there. Never mind that if something created space, who created them ect ect. Like i said, for ever (no beginning and no end) is pretty hard to wrap your head around, and the math is there, it just ins't solvable because the equation has no end. INFINITY It can't have a end, it has no no beginning no end and is limitless. think about it, if it ends, whats after that? More space.... it has to be infinite universe may be expanding but the space it is in is not. Edited October 27, 2013 by mattrsmith88
Strange Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Space has no time. only the physical objects within the space seem to age. space does not age, it just changes. It has always been there, and always will be. Thats the thing humans will never be able to comprehend, there is no creator, because you cant create something that has no beginning or end, just like it has no boundaries, it will be endless. There's an awful lot of claims there with no support. 1
studiot Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 because you cant create something that has no beginning or end, just like it has no boundaries, it will be endless. You know of mathematical structures that have no boundaries, but are limited or finite. Absolute temperature is one such. The surface of a ball is another.
Strange Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 The big bang is a theory for our universe (milky way), there is be more than one. More than likely a super massive star that collapsed and turned into that massive black hole in the centre of the milky way. And any explosion would push everything out so it would seem we are expanding, into space that was already there. That model does not match what we observe. universe may be expanding but the space it is in is not. Another claim that appears to contradict (well-tested) theory and the evidence. Do you have anything other than assertions? Maybe this should be moved to philosophy.
BusaDave9 Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 The big bang is a theory for our universe (milky way), there is be more than one. More than likely a super massive star that collapsed and turned into that massive black hole in the centre of the milky way. And any explosion would push everything out so it would seem we are expanding, into space that was already there. Never mind that if something created space, who created them ect ect. Like i said, for ever (no beginning and no end) is pretty hard to wrap your head around, and the math is there, it just ins't solvable because the equation has no end. INFINITY It can't have a end, it has no no beginning no end and is limitless. think about it, if it ends, whats after that? More space.... it has to be infinite universe may be expanding but the space it is in is not. This is not true. Space itself is expanding as the universe is expanding. At first this is hard for the layperson to understand. The evidence that the astronomers have collected show that the universe AND everything in it is expanding. It is not like matter in the universe is expanding into a void of the universe. It's not like all matter is traveling away from the place in space where the big bang started. It's not like there is a big void beyond where this matter has not yet expanded into. When astronomers look far out into space it looks like everything is moving away from us. But we don't have a special place in the universe no matter where you are in the universe it always looks like everything is expanding away from you.
studiot Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 This is not true. Space itself is expanding as the universe is expanding. At first this is hard for the layperson to understand. The evidence that the astronomers have collected show that the universe AND everything in it is expanding. It is not like matter in the universe is expanding into a void of the universe. It's not like all matter is traveling away from the place in space where the big bang started. It's not like there is a big void beyond where this matter has not yet expanded into. You need to be very careful with this concept, as soon as you use the word 'expand'. Perhaps you would like to explain further?
mattrsmith88 Posted October 28, 2013 Author Posted October 28, 2013 the universe is expanding the space it is expanding into was already there.....
BusaDave9 Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 The big bang is a theory for our universe (milky way), there is be more than one. More than likely a super massive star that collapsed and turned into that massive black hole in the centre of the milky way. And any explosion would push everything out so it would seem we are expanding, into space that was already there. Never mind that if something created space, who created them ect ect. Like i said, for ever (no beginning and no end) is pretty hard to wrap your head around, and the math is there, it just ins't solvable because the equation has no end. INFINITY It can't have a end, it has no no beginning no end and is limitless. think about it, if it ends, whats after that? More space.... it has to be infinite The Milky Way is our Galaxy. It is not a universe. Telescopes can see other galaxies but no telescope will ever be able to see any other universe. There is some misunderstanding about the universe and what it is. The universe encompasses EVERYTHING that exists ANYWHERE in space. It also includes everything that has ever existed and everything that will ever exist. The word universe means there is only one and it encompasses EVERYTHING. Okay so now my definition of universe is pretty much all encompassing. But scientists say there may be other universes. How could that be? The definition of universe includes everything that exists within the dimensions of our universe, space and time. It is ALL of space. There is definitely no end to the universe. It may be finite but it is also unbounded (no end). Or it may be infinite but still must be unbounded. That's the topic for another thread. So if there is another universe it just doesn't exist in our spacetime continuum. It may have other dimensions just not space and time. It may have a dimension similar to time that everything progresses through as things "age". It may have 3 dimensions or it may have 30 dimensions. You need to be very careful with this concept, as soon as you use the word 'expand'. Perhaps you would like to explain further? So if the universe is unbounded then you should be able to take a space at the speed of light (ok, ok it's a hypothetical spaceship) and never get to the end of the universe. If that is true then it was always true EVEN in the early universe when all the matter was pressed up together. ( I want to talk about the early universe not the singularity because my post would have to include quantum mechanics and be much more confusing) So in this early universe that was so "small" that all the matter was pressed together then it still continued on for ever. ALL the universe (EVERYTHING, and if you don't understand everything please reread my post) was composed of matter pressed together. As the universe expanded matter was not pressed together any longer. Atoms could form. Then matter could coalesce to form galaxies, stars, planets, etc, etc etc.
mattrsmith88 Posted October 28, 2013 Author Posted October 28, 2013 sounds to me like a black hole that went kaboom is the big bang theory (on a massive scale) still you seem to be still talking about the physical aspect of space, if space is expanding what is it expanding into? More space.... if space has boundaries what lies past them boundaries?
BusaDave9 Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) still you seem to be still talking about the physical aspect of space, if space is expanding what is it expanding into? More space.... No No No I am not talking about the physical aspect of space. No this is not like matter is expanding into preexisting space. Please reread my post where I talk about the early universe where matter is pressed together. This matter would exist EVERYWHERE in the universe. ALL of space would consist of this matter packed together. You could not travel to the end of this matter and see empty space beyond. This is why I keep talking about space itself expanding. NOT matter expanding into space. if space has boundaries what lies past them boundaries? NO, SPACE HAS NO BOUNDARIES! I realize this concept is hard to understand but scientist have given up on this idea of the universe having boundaries 200 years ago. Edited October 28, 2013 by BusaDave9
Endy0816 Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 The Universe is adding more space internally. A-------------B A--------------B Both letters are stationary, but by adding a " - " I have increased the distance(space) between them. It is better to think of space-time as a taffy than the fixed construct we deal with in everyday life.
mattrsmith88 Posted October 28, 2013 Author Posted October 28, 2013 that doesn't answer my question... what is it expanding into? if space has boundaries, what is past them boundaries? It has to be limitless
Endy0816 Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 If you want to get a bit zen, it is expanding into itself. Distance can be stretched or squished. It isn't the fixed quantity you are thinking of it as.
mattrsmith88 Posted October 28, 2013 Author Posted October 28, 2013 im not thinking it as a fixed quantity i'm thinking it as limitless and in itself timeless, it will always be there and alays has been we are just in a cycle, the big bang was more than likely a super sun that collapsed, and turned into a crazy black hole, that was so dense it was the size of a single particle. I'm not saying this is how it is, because none of us know how it is. http://www.universetoday.com/104863/
Strange Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 the universe is expanding the space it is expanding into was already there..... Wrong. Are you here to learn or just repeat incorrect assertions? sounds to me like a black hole that went kaboom is the big bang theory (on a massive scale) That is not what the big bang theory describes. And explosion into space would produce observably different results. still you seem to be still talking about the physical aspect of space, if space is expanding what is it expanding into? More space.... It isn't expanding into anything; it is itself expanding (or becoming less dense if that is easier to imagine). Maybe "expanding" is the wrong analogy: it is more accurate to say that the distance between things increases; this is just an effect of the geometry of space-time described by the FLRW metric. if space has boundaries what lies past them boundaries? It has no boundaries. 1
studiot Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) It isn't expanding into anything; it is itself expanding (or becoming less dense if that is easier to imagine). Maybe "expanding" is the wrong analogy: it is more accurate to say that the distance between things increases; this is just an effect of the geometry of space-time described by the FLRW metric. That's all very well but that does not explain what is meant by 'expansion'. Do you consider the universe finite or infinite? By that I mean is there at least one longest line, of length N metres (however large) that can be traversed in a constant direction without passing the same point more than once. Edited October 28, 2013 by studiot
Strange Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) That's all very well but that does not explain what is meant by 'expansion'. Perhaps the only way to understand it, then, is by learning the math. Although this might be useful: Expanding Space: the Root of All Evil? http://arxiv.org/abs/0707.0380 Do you consider the universe finite or infinite? I don't know (it doesn't make any difference to the "expanding space" model). Edited October 28, 2013 by Strange 1
s1eep Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 It can be a factor of future life, and therefore be a creator in itself; how do you know space doesn't end, or isn't a loop? Finite objects live within this space; space could be finite in itself. How do you know space was the first? Maybe it was the most useful (to a creator).
Strange Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 It can be a factor of future life What is "it"? Space? If so, then yes, I think we can be fairly confident that it will continue to be a factor in life. how do you know space doesn't end, or isn't a loop? No one knows. Finite objects live within this space; space could be finite in itself. Could be. Or maybe not. How do you know space was the first? Maybe it was the most useful (to a creator). Is there any evidence of a creator?
Strange Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 The essence of creation. Does that non-sequitur have any connection to the topic of this thread? I can't see it myself.
s1eep Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 Does that non-sequitur have any connection to the topic of this thread? I can't see it myself. Well, things do create. Does it have to be creating to be a creator? It is creation possible-zone, is it the essence of some creation?
swansont Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 ! Moderator Note "Creators" is not the topic of this thread. Please confine yourselves to the beginnigs or non-beginnings of space and time. IOW, the discussion is the product, not the manufacturer.
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