Who's in control?

[DevilSolution]

I've pretty much run out of idea's and question the ones which i think are mine so this is a somewhat penultimate thread of my curiosity i suppose.

 

Okay so lets assume our conscious mind is the one in control, the all powerful. It has an override feature to some instincts and some very important ones at that (such as eating, sleeping et cetera). Now its obvious that whatever my conscious thinks my body will enact, i tell my arm to wave and it will be done, i tell my head to spread open my hand like a spider and so it is.

 

What really makes my head spin is that really my conscious mind is a buffer for the subconscious, in reality my conscious mind is the hand and my subconscious the brain. My subconscious tells my conscious mind what to think, how to behave and what to believe. The reality being that really my subconscious mind tells my conscious mind everything it knows, like a data feed of sorts, i can consciously querry it and ill get a response, sometimes i get back a nice neat little response that easilly formatted and parsed and printed whereas other times it simply times out or returns a corrupted packet. The bottom line being that all my thoughts and idea's are actually some *mostly* filtered response from the subconscious.

 

When i believe ive thought of some new idea or have personally found the answer to a problem i automatically presume its my own because there is no IP address to thanks for the data (though with some data the IP is part of the request), which means this answer actually already existed, i didnt create it, my subconscious just (passively) filtered the origin from me.

 

Would this mean that no thought is ever unique? Just a hidden network of facts waiting to be queried?? What potential does the conscious mind posses when its finely tuned to querying more precise data? Is that even possible?

[iNow]

One challenge with your approach here is that "conscious" and "subconscious" are not real categories of the mind. They're sort of outdated ways that were previously used to explain ideas related to awareness and physiology. However, those concepts don't really hold up or remain valid when subjected to scrutiny. That said... Ultimately, it's all just chemistry, which is itself just physics.

 

As for whether or not any thoughts are ever unique it probably depends on your definition. Here's how I might argue the point, though.

 

Since the location and time of the thought is always different when you have it than when someone else has it (since no two objects can ever occupy the same space at the same time), then there are at least SOME unique aspects to EVERY thought, no matter how frequently it's been thought before.

[DevilSolution]

Thats a pretty cool thought, I had the same sort of idea relating to dejavu whereby when the feeling hits, your actually just producing or strumbling a cross a very similar feeling / scenario you've alreay felt. Like each moment is distinctly different but de ja vu is like tripping over or having the exact same thought / feeling you've once had. I doubt theres any science to it but i'd like to think my idea's are somewhat exclusive.

[ydoaPs]

Since the location and time of the thought is always different when you have it than when someone else has it (since no two objects can ever occupy the same space at the same time), then there are at least SOME unique aspects to EVERY thought, no matter how frequently it's been thought before.

*fermions

[iNow]

Yes, it's the Pauli Exclusion Principle of Unique Thoughts.

... and I agree, it would have been more accurate to say "no two fermions" than "no two objects."

[kristalris]

Wasn't this all dealt with in the thread on free will?

[iNow]

You'll find that the same questions and same arguments get revisited rather frequently at sites like these, regardless of how often and how thoroughly they've been addressed.

[kristalris]

You'll find that the same questions and same arguments get revisited rather frequently at sites like these, regardless of how often and how thoroughly they've been addressed.

ah

[DevilSolution]

You are right, it does definitely deal with 'free will' as a core component but im mostly interested in the 'Querying of data' from the subconscious. Free will comes down to conscious choice, the querying of the subconscious data would seem to have some neurological science as a reference. If your aware that you are creating querying and receiving return packets of data, is there any scientific or hypothetical way of improving the systems efficiency?

[Roamer]

If i may make a small observation, the conscious mind seems to be the part that deals with other humans.

Not just because humans are complex, but also because we share social constructs;

Simple conversations, where people can lie.

Moral codes, which will punish certain behaviours.

Social contracts and/or relationships.

And our social status(es).

You, the one consciously reading this, are pretty much the gatekeeper of your mind, and it's diplomat,

to see you are not the only ruler of your mind and get upset is a bit arrogant.

I think the answer you may seek lies in harmony with yourself, in order to not obstruct any of this querying for packets of information.

[hoola]

the question of "who's in control" to me a physiological question in that humans have 3 brains that developed in the order of reptilian/mammalian/human. In my self-examination of thought, consciousness seems the result of the internal struggle of the different operating systems that each semi-autonomous domain has, with each particular set of tasks to allow all to function correctly. A power struggle of varying strengths seems to stem from various exterior sensory inputs, instincts and memory, but also a physical requirement of nutrients and waste removal, with each brain's simple biological requirements being a central point of competition. My awareness seems to "roam" between the 3 domains and perceives 3 ways of analyzing a particular situation or question, and the formulation of a psycological or physical action or "descision" to these 3 "judgements" results in the phenomena of conscious will to act out a certain behavior in response to the situation or question. I also see an analogy in physics with the 3 orbiting bodies problem. Two bodies orbiting, no problem, a long term predictable set of positions in relation to each other can be determined. With 3 orbiting bodies, the predictability is much more limited. I see this as being somewhat de-stabilizing to humans...and a major point in my self-examination of thought...

Edited April 16, 2014 by hoola

[davidivad]

control is an idea.

[hoola]

one can have an idea to control something, but control itself seems much more complex than an idea....requiring perhaps billions of additional bits of data to be processed in the mind over an extended period lasting far beyond an initial idea to control something particular. Take the cigarette smoker for example. They might have an "idea" to quit smoking, but that is a far cry from ending (control) the behavoiur. When I think about "who is in control" I think of it in a continuing relationship of functioning processors, and how informational processes can gain self-awareness. I see this as an evolutionary function as the higher awareness an animal has, the more likely it is to reach sexual maturity and reproduce, bringing about the super-awareness or self-awareness, which extends awareness from observing the external enviornment, to including the internal enviornment..the self.

Edited April 17, 2014 by hoola

[Iamwhat?]

You know what I find fascinating about our 3D physical universe? Everything in existence starts out as sub atomic particles, the universe it's self started out as an infinitely small particle. I would seem to me that the source of all our knowledge/ consciousness would need to be at the beginning of the construction project...Not at the end. Ah mind candy I love you

[ichill]

If the sub conscious mind determines the content of the concious mind, and you accept that the conscious mind is where you are aware of it, then who is the one that is aware of it? Surely this is the biggest question? This would suggest that control is indeed an illusion.

[Deepak Kapur]

i forgot the name of the philosopher ( some Bishop...) who said that god has put images in the minds of living beings/human beings.....these images are consistent as people agree on them and so they 'think' that they are experiencing an 'external' reality....

 

SFTVP ( Seeing From This View Point )......it can be easily guessed who's in control.....

[Ten oz]

Our conciousness, our awareness, is what captures all the information that ends up in our head. Once there information is processed on unconscious levels. For a variety of evolutionary reasons it has been more effective for our unconscious minds to trigger behaviors rather than wait for our conscious mind to make a decision. Fight or flight is a triggered chemical response and not a choice for example.

 

However because it is our concious mind that puts information into the unconscious our conscious mind can ultimately shape our unconscious mind. A soldier can train themselves not to have a fight or flight response and make conscious calculated decisions under fire for example. So in my opinion we, our conscious mind, are in control so long as we are diligent. Thought is akin to a diet if we put healthy stuff in our minds will be healthy and we can do great things with it. If we put unhealthy stuff in our minds become unhealthy and we can't do much with it.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Ten oz

[ichill]

If the "concious" mind is in control, then try an do the following; become angry, become really sad, become jealous....

Its impossible to do these things, because your mind is not in control of it....

Think of the "unconscious" mind as the seed and the "conscious" mind the flower. What gives the seed its potential? I do agree that the "conscious" mind has its part to play in the re-seeding process, however if the seed contains potential, and it unfolds as such, the "conscious" mind is really acting out this potential. Mind and consciousness are often seen as one, but it is separate, and must not be confused. If the mind is a flower, then what sees it? There must be something seperate from the mind, because you are aware of your mind, I.e. the thoughts that it produces. Another example is this: If you can observe a dog walking past you, you know that you are not the dog. If you can see a pencil in your hand, you cannot be the pencil. Similarly, if you look at your hand, and it is chopped off in front of you, the YOU still remains. So, if you can observe "things" and you feel comfortable that they are not you, then why not view your thoughts the same way? If this is so, then you cannot be your thoughts, as they are "there" and yet YOU are "here". Try and be still for 5 minutes and stalk your mind. Where do all those spontaneous thoughts come from? Is that you? If it is, then i challenge you to turn them off....The sooner we realise that something much bigger is at play here, the sooner humanity will find peace.

[Ten oz]

The concious mind is the window which or unconscious mind views the world. At any moment a person can not consciously choose to be happy, sad, angry, etc but over time with effort a person can conciously make themselves generally more happy, sad, angry etc. The unconscious mind controls a lot and has overwhelming influence but it only knows what the concious mind shows it. Focused concious thought over time can train the unconscious.

[Ophiolite]

Wasn't this all dealt with in the thread on free will?

Yes, but some members feel compelled to contribute to any threads related to free will.

[imatfaal]

i forgot the name of the philosopher ( some Bishop...) who said that god has put images in the minds of living beings/human beings.....these images are consistent as people agree on them and so they 'think' that they are experiencing an 'external' reality....

 

SFTVP ( Seeing From This View Point )......it can be easily guessed who's in control.....

 

I think you are referring to Bishop Berkeley - although his philosophy is very subtle and has been taken out of context and misunderstood by generations.

 

He is also the only philosopher I know of with a city named after him

[Deepak Kapur]

ah..yes...he is the guy about whom i read on the internet....

[Ten oz]

I went back and read through this thread. After thinking about it a bit I think my initial thoughts on this subject were incorrect. If my concious mind were in control how could I think of anything that I wasn't already thinking of. Where would that thought come from?Thoughts driven by things I see or hear in my environment can be accounted for by my concious mind but where does the rest come from. How do I remember something out of the blue or I think of something new?

 

To the question of free will did I choose to like women? Did I choose to like Broccoli, prefer craft beer over wine, or LOVE coffee? Considering that hunger and fatigue affect mood and analytical ability do I ever choose to be tired or hungry?

 

I seems that the concious mind may merely be a manifestation of the the unconscious. While the unconscious mind may be largely driven by biology and genetics. I am not sure what purpose the duality would serve though.