Reasons why death may be okay

[The Peon]

Call me an idealist and a dreamer, but I view death as the greatest enemy to sentience. I have a slightly different view and hope... I think mankind can and will find a way to reverse aging, and then eventually figure out how to control the chemistry of life. Perhaps later, we will be able to use technology to transfer our consciousness into an artificial device, which would then perhaps, just maybe, grant us immortality until the Universe ends.

My point being, rather than try and change culturally how we view death, we should unite and make it a prime objective of our species to overcome. I am in university right now in the hopes to enter the Biomedical sector, and help push along the technology needed.

[Tridimity]

My point being, rather than try and change culturally how we view death, we should unite and make it a prime objective of our species to overcome. I am in university right now in the hopes to enter the Biomedical sector, and help push along the technology needed.

 

 

My previous job was in the Biomed sector, I am 100% with you on this, but acceptance of the inevitability of death - kind of a mental preparedness for when it eventually happens - and extension of longevity via biomedical progress are not mutually exclusive options. One can dedicate one's life to combating mortality and still retain a calm intellectual acknowledgement that, one day, this life will come to an end. To deny the truth or to emotionally kick and scream will do nothing to reverse the inevitable loss of biological order and therefore seems counterproductive.

[GiantEvil]

Yes, the concept of my own death is much less disconcerting compared to the loss of someone I know and care for. If I were to die it's not as if I could be ass'ed to even notice. However if someone I care about were to die, I got to live with that for as long as I live. Definitely solutions and positive effort are preferable to emotional flailing. And really, the problems of living are far more profound than the possibility of dying. Biomed is a worthy front against death. I would like to get into the electric vehicle market, I would hope to save some lives and grief there.

[tar]

The Peon,

 

Hum. Consciousness till the end of the universe. Don't you think by then we would have figured a way to even avoid that?

 

Perhaps its too big a leap to go from 120 years to eternity. Might aim for 200 years, or 600 years or something like that, first.

 

I am 60, or real close anyway, and things I could do when I was 18, I can no longer do. Bad knees keep me from running and jumping, and I don't hear as well, or see as well as I could before. Plus, some of the impulses and drives I had at 18 are somewhat muted or "taken care of" already. I have two grown daughters and a wife. Looking forward to grand kids one day. But I am not so sure we are setup to look forward to great great great great great.....great grand kids. Plus, there is already a population problem we have been having for the last 50 years or so, and in places like China, normal "drives" are already dissuaded and rules put in place to have only one child and such. I am not thinking immortality will be achieved without concurrent problems and losses of some "human" attributes. For instance, it would no doubt take a lot of energy, and know how, and reliance on technology and such, which would probably be expensive, and not available to everyone. How then would we chose who gets to continue, and who has to die? What new memes would have to develop, and how much of our current biochemistry would be lost, in the transaction?

 

And in a way, the consciousness of my maternal grandparents was embodied in my mom, and that of my paternal grandparents, embodied in my dad, and my parent's consciousness embodied in me. My dad is alive, my mom has passed away, but I still remember her, and have her as part of my consciousness, as if, in a way, she is continuing. Perhaps just the way we are doing it, is already a plan that will take us, and our consciousness into the future, past our deaths. Socrates is already immortal. The Pharos have their pyramids, still...Plus I still hate Bin Laden, even though he is dead. If we lived forever, would we carry grudges that long? And what if we planned the situation incompletely and left out some important component that we missed having? We would have to kick ourselves for 600 billion years or so, at least. Like what if you had to do without taste buds or something like that. Or sex? Might not be worth it. Living forever might not be a workable situation for 10 million consciousnesses. And what if you had to share a test tube with another consciouness you did not particularly care for?

 

I think you might want to think this immortality thing through a little and see if its workable. It may be better to just imagine heaven or rejoining the force, or meeting the dog you put to sleep in a field on the other side of the rainbow bridge.

 

Seems we might have some other issues to resolve, before we go after a permanent solution to this mortality thing.

 

Regards, TAR2

Edited November 16, 2013 by tar

[Tridimity]

TAR,

 

And in a way, the consciousness of my maternal grandparents was embodied in my mom, and that of my paternal grandparents, embodied in my dad, and my parent's consciousness embodied in me.

 

 

The flow of consciousness that has culminated in our individual consciousnesses has obviously, thus far, been uninterrupted through the generations. However, as a result of genetic and environmental differences, none of us think in exactly the same way as our parents thought or as our more distant ancestors thought. Each human is unique and so, while we may try to hold on to memories of how our parents and grandparents thought, we cannot accurately replicate their thought patterns - meaning that each human death represents the death of a unique consciousness.

 

If we lived forever, would we carry grudges that long? And what if we planned the situation incompletely and left out some important component that we missed having? We would have to kick ourselves for 600 billion years or so, at least. Like what if you had to do without taste buds or something like that. Or sex? Might not be worth it. Living forever might not be a workable situation for 10 million consciousnesses.

 

 

Perhaps, by that stage, our technology and knowledge of Neuroscience may have become sufficiently advanced that it would be possible to download software that feels, to all intents and purposes, akin to everyday phenomena.

 

And what if you had to share a test tube with another consciouness you did not particularly care for?

 

 

Some people do this already except the "test tube" is made of bricks and mortar and is paid for in monthly installments

Edited November 16, 2013 by Tridimity

[The Peon]

Thank you so much my friend, TAR2. I appreciated your well thought out response.

"Hum. Consciousness till the end of the universe. Don't you think by then we would have figured a way to even avoid that?"

I was going to mention perhaps we will find a way to quantum leap through dimensions, if you want to go real far, even perhaps becoming deities of our own Universes.

" But I am not so sure we are setup to look forward to great great great great great.....great grand kids. Plus, there is already a population problem we have been having for the last 50 years or so, and in places like China, normal "drives" are already dissuaded and rules put in place to have only one child and such. "

True, but in places with high education levels and high standard of living among the populace, the birth rate is actually stabilizing and the population declining. It might be that as humans have more and more of their needs met, and they understand the world around them better, they naturally stop producing children. We see this in nations of various cultures. The nations where life is hard, the highest birth rates exist. I think that combined with the technology that will give us eternal life, we wont have to worry about procreation. What's more, if the entire galaxy is not colonized yet by other species of life, we will need to colonize entire worlds.

" I am not thinking immortality will be achieved without concurrent problems and losses of some "human" attributes. For instance, it would no doubt take a lot of energy, and know how, and reliance on technology and such, which would probably be expensive, and not available to everyone. How then would we chose who gets to continue, and who has to die?"

I think once the "holy grail" of immortality is within the actual grasp of humanity, an epiphany will take over the species as a whole. The technology will be achieved via nuclear fusion. Research groups such as Skunk Works have released public videos announcing discoveries in nuclear fusion, making it cheap and easy.

 

As for who gets to live and who gets to die, I would honestly hope that with an entire galaxy to colonize and explore we would put aside petty differences, celebrate each others cultures and heritages, stop allowing bankers and politicians to run our civilizations, and press forth to reach our destiny. I think this can be achieved because I believe that if enough people think like me, it will happen, no matter who has what money or what weapons.

I think an immediate open global education system needs to be set up, with international accrediting. Diplomas and trade skills can be learned primarily online, with local journeymen available to complete training if need be in developing areas. That should be the first right of every human being. The second right to every human being is the right to travel anywhere one pleases. This will ensure morally inferior societies will dwindle away in time, or so I predict and hope. The third right of every human is the right to all resources and technology, barring the kind that can harm other human beings. That technology will be regulated by global councils whose primary purpose should be to organize a global military to defend against any possible hostile alien life. All this can really be achieved is a lengthy discussion, perhaps you can imagine a vast global distribution network primarily run by automatons and AI. This will all be powered by aforementioned fusion power. The fourth right is freedom of speech in all forms. Even hate speech should be open to ridicule, because by it's very essence it's ridiculous. An educated society would reject that form of banter. The fifth and final right should be freedom of transparency. Every public official and person serving on any council must be open to complete scrutiny. I would even recommend the more critical the position, the more transparent the position become. This may seem counter intuitive, but if you force the entire species to be as one with information vital to the survival of the species, honesty will ensue.

"the consciousness of my maternal grandparents was embodied in my mom, and that of my paternal grandparents, embodied in my dad, and my parent's consciousness embodied in me. My dad is alive, my mom has passed away, but I still remember her, and have her as part of my consciousness, as if, in a way, she is continuing. Perhaps just the way we are doing it, is already a plan that will take us, and our consciousness into the future, past our deaths. Socrates is already immortal. The Pharos have their pyramids, still...Plus I still hate Bin Laden, even though he is dead. If we lived forever, would we carry grudges that long?"

That is very poetic and beautiful. A deep spiritual way of looking at it. As for the great ones, and the great things, and the evil ones, and the evil things that lead to grudges... I think the Universe is a VAST place, and civil, advanced beings will respect each others immortality and perhaps find peace elsewhere from each other. Perhaps at that point such petty disputes will mean nothing and we will be as true brothers and sisters as a species.

"And what if we planned the situation incompletely and left out some important component that we missed having?"

I am confident that if we use proper scientific techniques we can develop ways to fail safe technology. The way I see it we will progress in stages. The first is Cyborgism. We are entering that stage now. After that will be merged interfaces. We will have nanobio implants that will allow us to interface with technology. Then finally, we will merge with the machines and become quantum beings. This is the stage that perhaps we will leave the Universe, and that is perhaps why we do not see galactic empires of aliens. Perhaps it's the destiny of all creatures to leave this Universe. Maybe travelling through space is restricted by laws of physics and travelling through dimensions is a much better route to go.

" Like what if you had to do without taste buds or something like that. Or sex? Might not be worth it. Living forever might not be a workable situation for 10 million consciousnesses. "

Those sensations are merely interpretations of energy. Once we can master the laws of the Universe in a more refined fashion, we will be able to "see" and experience things unimaginable right now. I always believed the reason for living was that you are rewarded for actions you perform, and thus quality of life dictates if you want to live or die. If you are happy, why would you want to die? Even if you were 10²²² years old, if you were happy you would not need to die or want to die.

I hope this response has given you hope. You are around my mothers age, and it would be so tragic to me, where I to attain immortality in my lifetime, and my own parents are the generation that died off before it was achieved I wish more people took this seriously and dedicated their lives to this pursuit. Cheers my brother.

 

 

 

 

 

The Peon,

 

Hum. Consciousness till the end of the universe. Don't you think by then we would have figured a way to even avoid that?

 

Perhaps its too big a leap to go from 120 years to eternity. Might aim for 200 years, or 600 years or something like that, first.

 

I am 60, or real close anyway, and things I could do when I was 18, I can no longer do. Bad knees keep me from running and jumping, and I don't hear as well, or see as well as I could before. Plus, some of the impulses and drives I had at 18 are somewhat muted or "taken care of" already. I have two grown daughters and a wife. Looking forward to grand kids one day. But I am not so sure we are setup to look forward to great great great great great.....great grand kids. Plus, there is already a population problem we have been having for the last 50 years or so, and in places like China, normal "drives" are already dissuaded and rules put in place to have only one child and such. I am not thinking immortality will be achieved without concurrent problems and losses of some "human" attributes. For instance, it would no doubt take a lot of energy, and know how, and reliance on technology and such, which would probably be expensive, and not available to everyone. How then would we chose who gets to continue, and who has to die? What new memes would have to develop, and how much of our current biochemistry would be lost, in the transaction?

 

And in a way, the consciousness of my maternal grandparents was embodied in my mom, and that of my paternal grandparents, embodied in my dad, and my parent's consciousness embodied in me. My dad is alive, my mom has passed away, but I still remember her, and have her as part of my consciousness, as if, in a way, she is continuing. Perhaps just the way we are doing it, is already a plan that will take us, and our consciousness into the future, past our deaths. Socrates is already immortal. The Pharos have their pyramids, still...Plus I still hate Bin Laden, even though he is dead. If we lived forever, would we carry grudges that long? And what if we planned the situation incompletely and left out some important component that we missed having? We would have to kick ourselves for 600 billion years or so, at least. Like what if you had to do without taste buds or something like that. Or sex? Might not be worth it. Living forever might not be a workable situation for 10 million consciousnesses. And what if you had to share a test tube with another consciouness you did not particularly care for?

 

I think you might want to think this immortality thing through a little and see if its workable. It may be better to just imagine heaven or rejoining the force, or meeting the dog you put to sleep in a field on the other side of the rainbow bridge.

 

Seems we might have some other issues to resolve, before we go after a permanent solution to this mortality thing.

 

Regards, TAR2

Edited November 16, 2013 by The Peon

[Tridimity]

I think that combined with the technology that will give us eternal life, we wont have to worry about procreation.

 

 

So, Evolution will cease...

[tar]

The Peon,

 

Well, I am thinking sort of inside out and outside in on this. Trying to discern the dream from the reality, at the same time recongnizing the power of the dream in shaping the future.

 

There are a lot of things that would have to be different, than they already are, in your dream. Not a bad thing to imagine your internal order shared with the world, but one thing I have figured out, in 60 years, is that the world is a big complicated place, and one man's joy is another man's sorrow. This is not liable to change...ever. Even within a single consciousness there is conflict. You can quit work and free yourself from your boss' rule, but then there are these hunger and cold things you have to deal with, when there is no paycheck.

 

And interestingly enough, you brought up maintainance of the species, and running into aliens. What if we run into another species that ALSO wants to live forever...but at our expense?

 

Plus, there is this other aspect of reality that I have noticed. In our dreams we can manipulate things without considering the consequences, not all the consequences, because we are just dreaming and can change the rules to fit our imagination. If we need some new technology, or the thing would only work if everything was different, then we just imagine everything gets magically, instantly different...which is not the way the world actually works. The world is ALREADY working and fits together flawlessly. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, every action in it has its causes and its effects. The whole universe is visable from here. But we can only actually reach about two or three feet out, at a time.

 

Makes me think that one of the important aspects of life, is to struggle against death.

To have the dream, and turn what of it you can into reality. To live, and make it possible for others to do the same and share the place. Its already an amazing place, that already works in quite the fitting fashion that it does. The sun already shines, the birds already sing, the stars already stretch forever in our skies. We are already in and of the thing. We are already a fitting pattern passed down to us from Lucy and her mate. We already belong, have already won the victory of life.

 

Important I think to recognize, that the victory belongs to any and all that achieve it, and the place does not in general require that TAR rules be followed. It seems more workable that TAR should endeavor to continue to fit the place, than endeavor to make the place fit TAR.

 

I still don't think death is OK, but I am thinking perhaps you can't have life, without it.

 

Regards, TAR2

How much of the current universe, is The Peon responsible for? How much of the current universe is The Peon responsible to?

 

Interesting questions, in that the answers would not subtantially change with immortality. We would still not know what is currently going on in the rest of the universe. There is this speed of light thing, that insulates us, from knowing everything at once. Ever.

[Tridimity]

I still don't think death is OK, but I am thinking perhaps you can't have life, without it.

 

 

You probably cannot have Evolution without it.