Dreams and Heaven

[s1eep]

People are skeptical as to whether Heaven exists; although, there is no evidence to support Heaven. A lot of humans believe in morality, and they try to be good in accordance with life so that they will be granted salvation in the afterlife. People get dreams, some, including myself, have dreams almost every night. Dreams are natural phenomenon that I think represent Heaven. In a dream you are superhuman; with the helping hand of numerous chemical reactions your mind creates a personal universe or world, and this universe or world is often filled with things that you want.

The other night, I dreamt I was with someone that I really want to be with--this is something that I will never experience in reality. It showed me that in dreams even my deepest wants are fulfilled, wants that are sometimes impossible to achieve in reality. In dreams, by simply wanting, a dream world is created. We need not put in any effort, as all work is done for us. Our mind is equipped with the ability to procreate, and our imagination becomes a reality.

When I die, I believe I will be transferred to a dream state, where all my wants are fulfilled; where I can create and dictate universes with the simplest thought. If a human mind can create a dream state, I have full faith that the universe, or life as a whole, can create something that's greater. Is this a rational, yet optimistic, belief? This is not a belief in a magical kingdom in the sky, this is a belief in a life that's great, greater than my own, and possible as shown by dreams.

All a dream needs to exist is someone to create it, there is no evidence for a dream universe created by a personal creator, but could this be a possibility since humans can create dreams aided by chemical reactions; could there be dream planets that have adapted these chemical reactions in the same way as humans have evolved to have them? If I was somehow to be reincarnated into one of these dream creations, then I would be in heaven, so to speak, because my ability would help fulfill all of my wants--it's the best reality.

Are dreams evidence of heaven because of the universes overall greatness in comparison to a human? Are dreams a greater reality that what we are experiencing in our reality? Or are they representing the best reality?

[iNow]

Are dreams evidence of heaven

No more than thunder is evidence of Thor. No.

[s1eep]

No more than thunder is evidence of Thor. No.

What about the possibility of heaven because of the universes greatness (above humanity)??

Edited November 24, 2013 by s1eep

[iNow]

Many things are possible, however that doesn't necessarily mean they are likely or compelling or worth taking seriously by anyone with a rational reasonable mind.

[s1eep]

Many things are possible, however that doesn't necessarily mean they are likely or compelling or worth taking seriously by anyone with a rational reasonable mind.

Are you saying that belief in such things is irrational or unreasonable? Is the universe capable to create a dream existence like man? I'm trusting the universe like I would a friend, I'm asserting that it could produce greater things than myself--I don't think this is irrational, humans have dreams, why can't dreams be created by something else? I'm taking natural evidence of something heavenly, and applying to things above and beyond myself in capacity.

[iNow]

Are you saying that belief in such things is irrational or unreasonable?

Among other things, yes. That is inherent in my comments.

 

I'm asserting that [the universe] could produce greater things than myself

No, you're not. You're asserting that dreams are evidence of heaven. Stop trying to move the goal posts.

 

humans have dreams, why can't dreams be created by something else?

Perhaps you should study more neurobiology and less theology if this is an area of interest for you.

[s1eep]

Among other things, yes. That is inherent in my comments.

 

No, you're not. You're asserting that dreams are evidence of heaven. Stop trying to move the goal posts.

 

Perhaps you should study more neurobiology and less theology if this is an area of interest for you.

If a human mind can create a dream state, I have full faith that the universe, or life as a whole, can create something that's greater. Is this a rational, yet optimistic, belief?

 

[Bignose]

If a human mind can create a dream state, I have full faith that the universe, or life as a whole, can create something that's greater. Is this a rational, yet optimistic, belief?

Rational would imply based upon strong objective evidence, to which the answer of this question would be no. As above, if you want to know what is rational based on the knowledge we have to date, you probably ought to start learning more about sleeping, neurology, and dreams. There is obviously more to learn than what we know today, but what we know today doesn't rationally support your statement above.

 

Now, if your faith in that statement brings your inner peace and helps you live a moral, happy, and good life, then have it my friend. Just don't look for science to support it based on rationality.

[s1eep]

I think the fact that the universe is greater than humanity, and humans can dream, is a foundation for faith; faith in something reasonable, I have reasoned with the universe, I believe it to be capable of things above what I can create, and rational, I have rationalized, I am capable of dreaming, isn't it already evident that something above me in every way can create dreams? It's a rational and reasonable belief with no hard evidence--but dreaming is evident, and the universes greatness is evident, no-one will ever work it all out, it's far too enormous and as I said, great. I guess it takes faith to believe in universal greatness, but it's hardly irrational or unreasonable faith; maybe I didn't reason with you, but I certainly reasoned with the universe.

[Bignose]

It's a rational and reasonable belief with no hard evidence

You keep using that word 'rational', though I do not think you know what it means.

 

Again, I have zero problem with your belief, and I think many people share it with you. But, I don't describe it as rational. Because it isn't. It is a faith, there is no rationality behind it.

 

So long as you accept it as a faith, then I don't think that anyone would have a serious problem with it. But, you can't invoke the word rational and bring in its implicit claims of strong, unbiased evidence and support with it. Because your belief just doesn't have that. It isn't 'rational' per the definition of the word 'rational'.

[s1eep]

Why is faith irrational?

Definition of rational: "is based on or in accordance with reason or logic".

What's illogical about a greater universe producing greater creations?

[Phi for All]

Why is faith irrational?

 

Because it asks you to unquestioningly believe in something you can't possibly know about.

 

Relying on faith is like selling everything you own to place a bet on a horse race. You're absolutely sure of the bet NOT because you've scouted the track and know every horse and jockey and have taken weather and crowds into consideration. You place the bet based on a "hunch", a gut feeling, or because someone else told you the horse was a winner.

 

How is that rational?

[Bignose]

Why is faith irrational?

Because faith, by its definition is to accept or believe something based on no evidence. Rationality, on the other hand, by its definition only accepts something because of the supporting evidence. Faith and rational are almost explicitly opposites.

 

Again, I want to make sure that you understand that I think that it is okay to have a belied based only on faith. You just need to be fair to the definitions of the words, and use them correctly per their definitions.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Bignose

[Villain]

 

Because it asks you to unquestioningly believe in something you can't possibly know about.

 

Relying on faith is like selling everything you own to place a bet on a horse race. You're absolutely sure of the bet NOT because you've scouted the track and know every horse and jockey and have taken weather and crowds into consideration. You place the bet based on a "hunch", a gut feeling, or because someone else told you the horse was a winner.

 

How is that rational?

 

Get off your high horse, all human systems are built upon a foundation of faith.

[s1eep]

Well. I'm not deluded for thinking heaven and hell exists, and I don't believe that all faith is irrational.

I "believe" in things greater than myself.

 

EDIT: By your logic, you need faith to understand the universe; you do not know it all; you only know it partially. To say "the universe" with full confidence is a lie, you are unworthy of expressing the term. You have faith.

Edited November 26, 2013 by s1eep

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

I just wanted to bring all of your attention to the following thread: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/73183-the-strength-of-faith/

 

If you wish to discuss faith and whether or not it is irrational, that thread is probably a better place for it. There are a number of other more recent ones also.

[Bignose]

EDIT: By your logic, you need faith to understand the universe; you do not know it all; you only know it partially.

And I don't think that there is a single good scientist who is claiming to understand all of the universe. Every good scientist should fully admit that there is plenty that we don't know. And that anyone who claims that, it acting on faith alone.

 

Again, I don't think that this is a problem, it just needs to be acknowledged as such, and use the words per their definitions.

[iNow]

As always, we're seeing theists conflate the usages of faith. My "faith" that the sun will come over the horizon again tomorrow morning is based on evidence and experience and is better described as "trust," and it is not the same as your "faith" that a magical sky dictator floats around in the clouds and cares whether or not we eat fish on Fridays or masturbate. My "faith" that insulin lowers blood sugar levels is hardly equivalent to your "faith" that we go to magical place called heaven when we die. Pretending they are the same is either ignorant or disingenuous, neither of which is all too flattering for the person expressing the conflation of terms.

 

Faith is little more than pretending to know something that cannot be known. This was also already pointed out repeatedly and quite clearly in the thread to which Hypervalent linked.

[Endy0816]

I had a dream where Morgan Freeman was the host on a bizarre mash-up of Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers Neighborhood.

 

While Freeman lauding the achievements of an umbrella and referring to his days fighting the Taliban, was entertaining; I can only hope my experience of heaven is in no way similar.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Endy0816

[Phi for All]

 

Get off your high horse, all human systems are built upon a foundation of faith.

 

The steed I sit astride is named "Evidence", and the view from up here is magnificent.

 

Science is the only human system that attempts to raise itself above faith, to provide support instead of guesses and hunches. It may have started by taking more on faith, but every day we progress god(s) are forced out of the gaps in our knowledge. Faith isn't a foundation, it's a Styrofoam house built on dirt compared to science.

 

While my horse can't completely erase all skepticism, she does give me reason to trust explanations I receive while up here. Evidence also elevates my claims over foundation-less faith-based answers. Explanations mean something when they have evidence to back them up. Wishing that dreams will come when our mortal coils have been shuffled-off is just hope, and can't be trusted.

 

I wish it was like that when we die, experiencing anything we can dream of for eternity. I hope, but I don't trust that explanation, and I certainly would never consider believing it unquestioningly with faith.

[s1eep]

My belief in heaven isn't irrational. If I can dream and the universe is greater than me, it can dream. I can never know everything, I will never be able to find out; it is optimistic, and it's ultimately good for my mind, and because it's based on relations between humans and the universe's ability it's rational. I'm taking what I have, what I can do, and then relating them to what the universe can do; I possess faith that me and the universe are connected, and there are special relations between us. It's not irrational faith simply because it is faith.

 

And some dreams are good, so because you don't find dreams great doesn't mean they don't satisfy our wants, thus creating the best life that we could wish for. Which brings me to my next idea, grades of heaven and hell, and you would be reborn in lives that were more heaven or more hell depending on your morality in this life. Some dreams are good, some dreams are bad--you also get nightmares,

Edited November 26, 2013 by s1eep

[Strange]

My belief in heaven isn't irrational. If I can dream and the universe is greater than me, it can dream.

 

You have a brain that creates dreams. There is no (rational) reason to think that the universe has a brain. Therefore there is no reason to think the universe can dream.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Strange

[s1eep]

 

You have a brain that creates dreams. There is no (rational) reason to think that the universe has a brain. Therefore there is no reason to think the universe can dream.

That's not saying a brain cannot be created by the universe. Of course there is reason to believe that the universe can create dream states, or dream.

[John Cuthber]

"Of course there is reason to believe that the universe can create dream states, or dream."

Really?

What reason is that?

(aside from the obvious answer: I dream. I am part of the universe, so the universe dreams.)

[Villain]

As always, we're seeing theists conflate the usages of faith. My "faith" that the sun will come over the horizon again tomorrow morning is based on evidence and experience and is better described as "trust," and it is not the same as your "faith" that a magical sky dictator floats around in the clouds and cares whether or not we eat fish on Fridays or masturbate. My "faith" that insulin lowers blood sugar levels is hardly equivalent to your "faith" that we go to magical place called heaven when we die. Pretending they are the same is either ignorant or disingenuous, neither of which is all too flattering for the person expressing the conflation of terms.

 

Faith is little more than pretending to know something that cannot be known. This was also already pointed out repeatedly and quite clearly in the thread to which Hypervalent linked.

 

Yes and your 'faith' that the sun will come up tomorrow is merely a habit of your mind and is not supported by reason, just like all other forms of faith, why don't you educate yourself and go look up the 'problem of induction'.