multiple universe

[simong]

what helps us the theory of multiple universe to understand our universe?

 

simon

[EdEarl]

IIRC, the idea of a multiverse comes from the fact that the Universe is expanding forever faster in all directions, as far as we know forever (towards being infinitely large). Since our Universe exists, there is no reason to expect it to be the only universe. If our Universe can expand infinitely, there may be an infinite number of universes. However, this line of reasoning does not mean there are other universes, and there is no way we can ever see another universe. Although, some scientists suggest that the distribution of the cosmic background microwave radiation suggests our Universe may have touched another universe about the time of the big bang.

[mathematic]

Multiple universes are a way of answering the question, why do physical constants have their specific values? With multiple universes there can be lots of different values and we happen to be in one with these values.

[Bill Angel]

The multiverse scenario is also one prediction that comes from string theory cosmology. One attractive aspect of string theory cosmology is that it provides a way to encompass or reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics.

[simong]

if so, then for instance we can see that one more universe is not enough, because we find this universe not answering all questions we have about the first universe, not only this, mayby new questions comes up, and add a third universe and so on.

 

therefore, maybe the answer is not in this theory?

IIRC, the idea of a multiverse comes from the fact that the Universe is expanding forever faster in all directions, as far as we know forever (towards being infinitely large). Since our Universe exists, there is no reason to expect it to be the only universe. If our Universe can expand infinitely, there may be an infinite number of universes. However, this line of reasoning does not mean there are other universes, and there is no way we can ever see another universe. Although, some scientists suggest that the distribution of the cosmic background microwave radiation suggests our Universe may have touched another universe about the time of the big bang.

for my poor understanding if the universe is expandiding only infinitely so only one universe can be exsit. if the universe is finit then my question still stands.

[Archimedes]

if so, then for instance we can see that one more universe is not enough, because we find this universe not answering all questions we have about the first universe, not only this, mayby new questions comes up, and add a third universe and so on.

 

therefore, maybe the answer is not in this theory?

for my poor understanding if the universe is expandiding only infinitely so only one universe can be exsit. if the universe is finit then my question still stands.

 

The beauty of science is that the questions will never stop coming. Something such as the multiverse definitely raises more questions than answers, but it is what seems to make sense in terms of String Theory. Maybe it's the wrong way of looking at things. We don't know, it's as simple as that. String Theory is still in its early stages, and there's plenty more research to be done before we start getting definitive answers on any aspect of it.

 

The universe is expanding, yes. But is it infinite? We don't know. That just raises more questions. Why wouldn't your question stand if it was infinite? Why couldn't there be an infinite number of infinite universes? See, there's always more questions. That's the beauty of science.

 

- Arch

[simong]

 

The beauty of science is that the questions will never stop coming. Something such as the multiverse definitely raises more questions than answers, but it is what seems to make sense in terms of String Theory. Maybe it's the wrong way of looking at things. We don't know, it's as simple as that. String Theory is still in its early stages, and there's plenty more research to be done before we start getting definitive answers on any aspect of it.

 

The universe is expanding, yes. But is it infinite? We don't know. That just raises more questions. Why wouldn't your question stand if it was infinite? Why couldn't there be an infinite number of infinite universes? See, there's always more questions. That's the beauty of science.

 

- Arch

hello young archimedes,

 

by definition infinite is big as the infinite therefore, it's impossible for two universes to exsit at the same time. also, becaude the universe expands, it will never be infinite...

 

simon

[EdEarl]

There are many infinities in whole numbers. There are an infinite number of whole numbers, an infinite number of odd numbers, an infinite number of even numbers, an infinite number of whole numbers divisible by 3, many prime numbers, and an infinite number of numbers divided by each prime number. There may be an infinite number of infinite whole number sequences, but IDK if it is proven.

 

Thus, there is no reason we should not consider an infinite number of Universes, each expanding towards infinity.

Edited December 2, 2013 by EdEarl

[simong]

number is not a matter but the universe is a matter. therefore, only one infinite universe can fill the infinite space, if there are two universes, one is the finite of the other. if you describe the universe as a membrane and the other universe also a membrane which a layer above the first, then each one can expend to 5 diractions but not 6, then you get a finite universe.

 

also i think, that the universe will expand infinitly, it will collapse on the way because the "weakness" of the forces holding the universe in possition. if this is correct,

then the universe must be finite!

 

simon

[hoola]

I like the discussions of infinite vs. finite universes. I see that there is a barrier between the infinity of mathematics (the theoretical) and the extant universe, or universes (the real). This calls into question is there even an infinity in mathematics? If there is a limit to the rate of any calculation set up by the underlying logic of the universe, than only an "approaching infinteness" can be achieved even in the theoretical realm of mathematics...so the real universe(s) seem less likely to posess any infinities in them, if the underlying mathematical information is limited to non-infinities. However, I see the realm of math as have a defacto infinite possibility within it. Not true infinity, but as infinite as the underlying sub-structure of mathematical constructions, or logic itself, allows and that this heading towards infinity in a theoretical realm, translates into the real universe's plank scale basic increment of time that keeps everthing from happening at once on this side of the theoretical / real divide.....edd

Edited December 8, 2013 by hoola

[decraig]

Add enough dimensions and you explain anything.

 

Look at string theory. What a mess of mathemagic.

I like the discussions of infinite vs. finite universes. I see that there is a barrier between the infinity of mathematics (the theoretical) and the extant universe, or universes (the real). This calls into question is there even an infinity in mathematics? If there is a limit to the rate of any calculation set up by the underlying logic of the universe, than only an "approaching infinteness" can be achieved even in the theoretical realm of mathematics...so the real universe(s) seem less likely to posess any infinities in them, if the underlying mathematical information is limited to non-infinities. However, I see the realm of math as have a defacto infinite possibility within it. Not true infinity, but as infinite as the underlying sub-structure of mathematical constructions, or logic itself, allows and that this heading towards infinity in a theoretical realm, translates into the real universe's plank scale basic increment of time that keeps everthing from happening at once on this side of the theoretical / real divide.....edd

You have a lot of ideas churning; most my own as well. Are you aware of nonstandard analysis?

Edited December 22, 2013 by decraig

[simong]

 

The beauty of science is that the questions will never stop coming. Something such as the multiverse definitely raises more questions than answers, but it is what seems to make sense in terms of String Theory. Maybe it's the wrong way of looking at things. We don't know, it's as simple as that. String Theory is still in its early stages, and there's plenty more research to be done before we start getting definitive answers on any aspect of it.

 

The universe is expanding, yes. But is it infinite? We don't know. That just raises more questions. Why wouldn't your question stand if it was infinite? Why couldn't there be an infinite number of infinite universes? See, there's always more questions. That's the beauty of science.

 

- Arch

if the universe expands, it is not yet infinite!

 

simon

[Strange]

if the universe expands, it is not yet infinite!

 

simon

 

The fact the universe is expanding has nothing to do with whether the universe is finite or infinite.

 

You may be thinking of the universe expanding like a balloon. That is not how it works. It is more accurate to think of it as the distance between things increasing; or the average density decreasing.

[simong]

 

The fact the universe is expanding has nothing to do with whether the universe is finite or infinite.

 

You may be thinking of the universe expanding like a balloon. That is not how it works. It is more accurate to think of it as the distance between things increasing; or the average density decreasing.

what i said is that as long the universe expands it can't be infinit. i don't care about tne expantion way, it can be as you like...

 

simon

[ajb]

what i said is that as long the universe expands it can't be infinit.

This is not true either.

 

It is possible that the topology allows for the space to be open and thus have infinite volume while still expanding. Think of space as Euclidean space. It is also possible that the topology is closed, thus we have a finite volume, here we have something like a 3-torus.

[simong]

I like the discussions of infinite vs. finite universes. I see that there is a barrier between the infinity of mathematics (the theoretical) and the extant universe, or universes (the real). This calls into question is there even an infinity in mathematics? If there is a limit to the rate of any calculation set up by the underlying logic of the universe, than only an "approaching infinteness" can be achieved even in the theoretical realm of mathematics...so the real universe(s) seem less likely to posess any infinities in them, if the underlying mathematical information is limited to non-infinities. However, I see the realm of math as have a defacto infinite possibility within it. Not true infinity, but as infinite as the underlying sub-structure of mathematical constructions, or logic itself, allows and that this heading towards infinity in a theoretical realm, translates into the real universe's plank scale basic increment of time that keeps everthing from happening at once on this side of the theoretical / real divide.....edd

the mathematics is tool used in the physics scince to calculate, research, express etc. physical theories. some time, during the

 

calculations, the result is unexpected and has to be explained, the explanation can be a new theory. Some of them are correct

 

some of them can be not.

 

 

Not all the universe is physical! Aristotle said, there is physics and metaphysics, these means the metaphysics can't be calculated.

 

 

Anyway, there are some physical theories that are more philosophical than physical.

 

 

Simon

 

[Strange]

Not all the universe is physical! Aristotle said, there is physics and metaphysics, these means the metaphysics can't be calculated.

 

Aristotle also said that men have more teeth than women. So I wouldn't put too much faith in his opinions; he was the just one of the first crackpots.

 

 

Anyway, there are some physical theories that are more philosophical than physical.

If they are philosophical, then they are not physical theories.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Strange

[imatfaal]

 

Aristotle also said that men have more teeth than women. So I wouldn't put too much faith in his opinions; he was the just one of the first crackpots.

 

If they are philosophical, then they are not physical theories.

 

Aristotle was often wrong - but a crackpot never. He probably made the greatest single contribution to western learning of anybody - some of it wrong but much of it kept learning, logic, and philosophy going through the dark ages. Many of his ideas were superseded in the Renaissance (quite a few wrongly) - but without the trove of classical knowledge that was partially founded upon the writing of Aristotle we would still be waiting for the rebirth of the western academia.

[simong]

This is not true either.

 

It is possible that the topology allows for the space to be open and thus have infinite volume while still expanding. Think of space as Euclidean space. It is also possible that the topology is closed, thus we have a finite volume, here we have something like a 3-torus.

As I understand the meaning of the universe concept, that it is a complete and perfect system and mutual influence, how can you say that some is topological limited and some is infinite. Values are

 

effecting matter, if you have additional matter, you need for it more space if you do not have more space it become more dense. Anyway, because there is infinite space, it doesn't mean the universe

 

will be infinite or the values will be infinite. For these you need infinite energy and infinite growing gravity force to hold all stand, if not it will collapse.

 

 

This is uneducated opinion, and I'll be happy to learn more, specially from my mistakes.

 

 

Simon

 

[Strange]

 

Aristotle was often wrong - but a crackpot never.

 

I am exaggerating, obviously, but his preference for "reason" over evidence is a trade-mark of most modern Internet cranks.

Values are effecting matter, if you have additional matter, you need for it more space if you do not have more space it become more dense.

 

As far as we know, the amount of matter (1) is fixed (2) and so it will not become more dense.

 

 

Anyway, because there is infinite space, it doesn't mean the universe will be infinite or the values will be infinite.

 

If space is infinite, then the universe is infinite: the universe is space.

 

 

For these you need infinite energy and infinite growing gravity force to hold all stand, if not it will collapse.

 

And, if the universe is infinite, then it will contain infinite matter.

 

Currently, it appears there is not enough mass to cause the universe to collapse again (as was once thought to be the case). In fact the rate of expansion seems to be accelerating.

 

 

(1) Or, more exactly, matter+energy

(2) Well, perhaps, apart from dark energy

[BearOfNH]

 

I am exaggerating, obviously, but his preference for "reason" over evidence is a trade-mark of most modern Internet cranks.

 

Doesn't this mean that today we'd describe Aristotle as a "theoretical physicist" as opposed to an "experimentalist"?

 

If you give it a modicum of thought, obviously most internet cranks are going to be from the theoretical side. But not all theoretical physicists are crackpots.

[Strange]

If you give it a modicum of thought, obviously most internet cranks are going to be from the theoretical side. But not all theoretical physicists are crackpots.

 

True. I guess the difference is that Aristotle didn't even look for the evidence, presumably considering it unnecessary. A crank, presented with the evidence, will just dismiss it.

 

I think even theoretical physicists will look for evidence (or work with someone else who will).

[simong]

 

I am exaggerating, obviously, but his preference for "reason" over evidence is a trade-mark of most modern Internet cranks.

 

As far as we know, the amount of matter (1) is fixed (2) and so it will not become more dense.

 

 

If space is infinite, then the universe is infinite: the universe is space.

 

 

And, if the universe is infinite, then it will contain infinite matter.

 

Currently, it appears there is not enough mass to cause the universe to collapse again (as was once thought to be the case). In fact the rate of expansion seems to be accelerating.

 

 

(1) Or, more exactly, matter+energy

(2) Well, perhaps, apart from dark energy

the space is infinite but not the universe! do you hold the theory that the universe expands?

 

evidence has a reason if you accept it or not, that what the scientists are looking.

 

 

Simon

 

[Strange]

the space is infinite but not the universe!

 

What is the difference between space and the universe? The universe is space; there is no space outside the universe because there is no outside the universe.

 

do you hold the theory that the universe expands?

 

It certainly seems that way.

[simong]

 

What is the difference between space and the universe? The universe is space; there is no space outside the universe because there is no outside the universe.

the universe is the matter and it is limited. the universe is thaking place in the space wich is unlimited (=infinite)

 

 

It certainly seems that way.

 

if you say so how do you think that the infinite is expanding?

simon