Did amphibians evolve in the sea? Really?

[Endy0816]

I was just posting a couple of high salinity examples. No true marine ones out there(though the crab-eating frog comes close), but should be enough to raise reasonable doubt.

 

Several species go to great lengths to avoid laying eggs in the ocean. IMO seems more plausible that something that doesn't have to doesn't, than does. Interesting to think about though.

[Moontanman]

I was just posting a couple of high salinity examples. No true marine ones out there(though the crab-eating frog comes close), but should be enough to raise reasonable doubt.

 

Several species go to great lengths to avoid laying eggs in the ocean. IMO seems more plausible that something that doesn't have to doesn't, than does. Interesting to think about though.

Endy, I didn't mean to be so confrontational but i learned some new things by investigating your claims, I finally understand why modern amphibians are not ancestral in any way to modern reptiles or mammals... But the crab eating frog is not by it's name suggestive of a saline environment, we have lots of freshwater crabs in the world, even where I live... What I would like to get my hands on is a freshwater hermit crab, if I could breed them i could get rich... lol ( I am into and well versed in breeding crustaceans and fishes )

[Endy0816]

Yeah, I see your point. Personally only ever really watched the marine variety. Feeding off the submarine and in the barnacles on the pier. Freshwater encounters were almost exclusively as a result of seeing crawdad fishing and gut reaction overrode any and all scientific interest.

[Moontanman]

Yeah, I see your point. Personally only ever really watched the marine variety. Feeding off the submarine and in the barnacles on the pier. Freshwater encounters were almost exclusively as a result of seeing crawdad fishing and gut reaction overrode any and all scientific interest.

A little off topic but we actually have a population of semi land locked blue crabs here, they get huge, I have personally caught them more than 13" across the carapace... still taste good...

[Moontanman]

The blue crabs live in a freshwater power plant cooling lake, I've caught bushels of these huge crabs so they are not, or were not rare, the power plant has shut down so I'm not sure the same conditions prevail there now...

[rwjefferson]

skin is neotenic

def: laughter

noisy tonic clonic seizure

(:

I finally understand why modern amphibians are not ancestral in any way to modern reptiles or mammals.[/bullwinkle]

And let me know when you convince all Creationists that modern apes are not ancestral in any way to modern humans;)

in the spirit of good and all

ron

[Moontanman]

skin is neotenic

Citation please:

 

def: laughter

noisy tonic clonic seizure

Care to elaborate?

 

(:

 

I finally understand why modern amphibians are not ancestral in any way to modern reptiles or mammals.

I gave a link to this information...

 

And let me know when you convince all Creationists that modern apes are not ancestral in any way to modern humans;)

 

in the spirit of good and all

ron

Modern humans are apes by definition...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

 

Convincing someone who is not honestly seeking knowledge is a fools errand...

[rwjefferson]

def: lungs

what you get when you turn salamander gills outside inside

and a few hundred million years or so

What is the difference between Cambrian Chordates and Tadpoles?

What is the difference between tadpoles and humans?

Is no need to grow shell or fur a neotenic state?

long ago

I gave up trying to convince creationists and otherwise intelligent tetrapods of self evident truth. I am here to report what I see and I seek better answers. I am still wanting and am so sorry you do not know laughter like me.

most humbly yours

ron

[Ringer]

def: lungs

what you get when you turn salamander gills outside inside

The question doesn't make sense. There are salamanders with external gills and there are some with internal gills.

 

and a few hundred million years or so

What is the difference between Cambrian Chordates and Tadpoles?

Vertebral columns, lungs, 3-part brain, bones, paired lateral appendages, jaws, etc, etc.

 

What is the difference between tadpoles and humans?

synapsid skull, four chambered heart, fur, lack of gills, bones/hard cartilage lung support, mammory glands, etc, etc, etc.

 

Is no need to grow shell or fur a neotenic state?

No, neotenic states are juvenile states retained into adulthood. Besides, neither of those examples = lack of skin. I don't know of any chordate that doesn't have skin.

 

long ago

I gave up trying to convince creationists and otherwise intelligent tetrapods of self evident truth. I am here to report what I see and I seek better answers. I am still wanting and am so sorry you do not know laughter like me.

 

 

 

most humbly yours

ron

 

If you want well formed answers try to ask questions that don't read like you are typing every word that pops into your head. It makes everything disjointed and very difficult to follow

[Moontanman]

Not to mention salamanders with lungs and with out lungs or gills...

[Alan McDougall]

 

 

While i tend to agree that amphibians probably evolved in freshwater others do disagree but just because no current amphibians live in salt water doesn't mean none ever did or that they didn't originate there.

 

There are modern amphibians that lay their eggs on land and modern reptiles that give birth to live young, it not always a good idea to extrapolate backwards into time to make assumptions...

 

Humans carry the sea/oceans of their origin inside their bodies, blood is salty etc! In fact there are no animals as far as I know, that have fresh water blood, thus the oceans were/are our original homes from which we emerged millions of years ago.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Alan McDougall

[rwjefferson]

deeper and deeper into my wormhole

given

It is self evident that cellular life populated the sea long before amphibians crawled onto dry land. Now please tell exactly how and when and where. Is it remotely possible even likely intrepid salamanders developed four muscular limbs and lungs striving to crawl up under and out of mountain ponds and seeps and streams and torrents?

yes.yes.yes.iii

skin is a neotenic state and shells and scales and claws and nails and whiskers and hairs and wings and arms and feathers and tails not so much

def: neotenic

juvenile

syn: juvenile

def: skin

semi-permeable membrane

syn: essential for fleshy life

What is the difference between Cambrian Chordates and you and me?

Vertebral columns, lungs, 3-part brain, bones, paired lateral appendages, jaws, and

synapsid skull, four chambered heart, fur, lack of gills, bones/hard cartilage lung support, mammary glands and a few hundred million years or so.

0de to intermediate Sirens everywhere

There are salamanders with external gills and there are some with internal gills; not to mention salamanders with lungs and with out lungs or gills.

How do gillish stem cells like yours migrate and invaginate and differentiate into such truly wondrous lungs? Really.

ron

[Ringer]

I have no problem helping people that are seeking clarification or answer genuine questions when people are trying to learn, but to just ask what is essentially the same question over and over is ridiculous. If you are truly interested here's a book that can answer the majority of the questions you have brought up: Anatomy of the Vertebrates (9th ed) – Kent & Carr

[Endy0816]

Likely there was just an intermediate branch that has since died off. Reptiles can quite provably inhabit the same areas while being capable of laying eggs on land and are better able to deal with moving between saltwater, brackish and freshwater.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Endy0816