Time dilation due to gravity at the moment big bang singularity

[Alan McDougall]

Hi,

 

I am somewhat unsure how to speculate about, time flow happened in the possibly infinite gravity at the moment big bang singularity I admit that we don't really know if gravity existed at the moment before the big bang singularity. But if we go to another similar phenomenon of the universe, namely a black hole, we are told that gravity increases in its proximity, toward infinity,causing time to halt in relation or relative to the outside universe.

 

The big bang is very similar, in some ways to a black hole and some physicists theorize, that the big bang, is the expression of the energy from a black hole of another universe, venting and creating our particular universe, in the form of a White Hole, which expels energy instead of absorbing it, as is the case of a black hole.

 

Now at the moment of the big bang singularity?:

 

1) Do you think gravity existed?

2) Do you think if gravity existed, it was infinite?

3) Do you time existed at that moment?

4) If you think gravity were infinite, how did time emerge/flow out of infinite of an infinite gravity flield taking time dilation into consideration?

 

Add you own thought please?

Edited December 18, 2013 by Alan McDougall

[Moontanman]

It is difficult to understand but bear in mind that both Time and Space came into existence at the moment of the big bang, I suspect that one day we will have a better understanding, the singularity is just a point where the math breaks down and may not be real, and there are other theories...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekpyrotic_universe

 

http://www.nature.com/news/did-a-hyper-black-hole-spawn-the-universe-1.13743

[timo]

A few random comments:

- The exact moment of the Big Bang singularity is problematic to describe. Times arbitrarily close to it are a bit better. As Moontanaman indicates, extrapolating the Big Bang scenario back to the singularity is a bit dubious, since we already expect that unaccounted-for physics effects become relevant before that.

- It may be a bit inaccurate to say that math breaks down at the singularity. Math breaks down there pretty much the same way as it breaks down when you mutliply a number with zero. This leads to weird effects like 7*0=5*0 despite [math]7*x \neq 5*x[/math] for any other x. But few people say that math breaks down when you multiply by zero. It is the physical assumptions going into the Big Bang scenario that we expect to break down close to the singularity.

- The Big Bang scenario is actually not that similar to a black hole. The former assumes mass being spread out evenly everywhere, the latter assumes matter to be concentrated in a tiny sub-region of an otherwise matterless space. In the former case the geometry of space changes with time, in the latter case one usually considers the case where geometry is constant over time.

Edited December 19, 2013 by timo

[StringJunky]

timo, on 19 Dec 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:timo, on 19 Dec 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

 

- It may be a bit inaccurate to say that math breaks down at the singularity.

I know scientists don't really go with singularity idea now but a thought struck me recently: Would it not take an infinite amount of time for the universe to go from the infinite density of a singularity to the finite density it is now? Or the alternative solution is, in some period, it expanded at an infinite rate to reach a finite density.

Edited December 19, 2013 by StringJunky

[Alan McDougall]

I know scientists don't really go with singularity idea now but a thought struck me recently: Would it not take an infinite amount of time for the universe to go from the infinite density of a singularity to the finite density it is now? Or the alternative solution is, in some period, it expanded at an infinite rate to reach a finite density.

 

What you stated is difficult to comprehend!

 

A black hole singularity is the dimensionless point where all matter near enough to it, is pulled into it and concentrated into infinitely dense point, and therefore it no longer exists within our space-time as it has become a point of infinite curvature of space-time. Thus what happens to time in a black hole?.

 

The big bang singularity is where all the mass of the universe was concentrated into one spot. It had all of the properties of a black hole singularity, but emerged somehow creating all of space time and matter, ultimately resulting in our universe. This was the big bang. Therefore, the main difference between a black hole singularity, is that a Black Hole ends time and pulls matter into it, and the big bang singularity, began space time , and from which all the matter time energy and space of our universe emerged. (I do not think of the Big Bang as some sort of an explosion)

 

My problem is how did the universe emerge, out of the primordial singularity, result in the Big Bang, which resulted in the beginning of creating our universe. My problem is how did the universe emerge out of an infinite gravity field and the huge time dilation that should have stopped time flow, according to known physics?, Thus,can anyone explain, how the universe the emerged out of the Big Bang, against the supposed constraints of modern physics?.

 

Maybe the mysterious 'Dark Energy' if found could answer some of these questions?

[timo]

I know scientists don't really go with singularity idea now but a thought struck me recently: Would it not take an infinite amount of time for the universe to go from the infinite density of a singularity to the finite density it is now? Or the alternative solution is, in some period, it expanded at an infinite rate to reach a finite density.

According to the Big Bang scenario it took something like 13 Billion years, if I remember correctly. Some finite time, at least.

 

Imagine a volume of size 10 units with some constant amount of mass in it. Let the volume shrink by 1 unit per second. After 10 seconds you have a finite amount of mass in zero volume, which people love to call an "infinite density" (whereas I'd rather doubt the validity of the state). It certainly did not take an infinite amount of time to go from finite density to infinite density, but rather an infinitesimally small one.

The trick is that it is not the mass that is affected, but the volume that approaches a very special mathematical value - zero. If you'd start out with a non-zero volume of infinite density, then indeed you might need some weird dynamics to ever reach a state of finite density.

[StringJunky]

timo, on 19 Dec 2013 - 9:58 PM, said:

According to the Big Bang scenario it took something like 13 Billion years, if I remember correctly. Some finite time, at least.

 

Imagine a volume of size 10 units with some constant amount of mass in it. Let the volume shrink by 1 unit per second. After 10 seconds you have a finite amount of mass in zero volume, which people love to call an "infinite density" (whereas I'd rather doubt the validity of the state). It certainly did not take an infinite amount of time to go from finite density to infinite density, but rather an infinitesimally small one.

The trick is that it is not the mass that is affected, but the volume that approaches a very special mathematical value - zero. If you'd start out with a non-zero volume of infinite density, then indeed you might need some weird dynamics to ever reach a state of finite density.

That makes it a clearer, thanks.

[Alan McDougall]

Thinking about my posting this thread here, when I contemplate the topic further is seems to be more of a philosophical question , than a physics topic. I do not have the authority to move it there, could a moderator do it for me

 

Thanks Alan!

Edited December 21, 2013 by Alan McDougall