Question about infinity and infinite possibilities.

[Guest leet_azn_mas]

the other day i found myself in a heated debate with two of my friends about infinite possibilities.

 

their claim was that while adhering to the belief that the universe is infinite, any kind of planet that could possibly exist WILL exist.

 

they used the example of a planet 100% identical to ours, the only exception being everybody spoke spanish.

 

taking what i know about infinity and numbers, and how an infinite set of numbers does not necessarily need to contain every number that there is i argued with them, saying that while it is possible that this planet could exist, it does not HAVE to, if there are infinite possiblities of planets that could exist, than there is nothing to say that a planet where everybody speaks spanish needs to exist.

 

i apologize if i didn't explain this clearly, but if you have some idea of what im trying to say im looking for any outside input anybody is willing to offer.

[syntax252]

the other day i found myself in a heated debate with two of my friends about infinite possibilities.

 

their claim was that while adhering to the belief that the universe is infinite' date=' any kind of planet that could possibly exist WILL exist.

 

they used the example of a planet 100% identical to ours, the only exception being everybody spoke spanish.

 

taking what i know about infinity and numbers, and how an infinite set of numbers does not necessarily need to contain every number that there is i argued with them, saying that while it is possible that this planet could exist, it does not HAVE to, if there are infinite possiblities of planets that could exist, than there is nothing to say that a planet where everybody speaks spanish needs to exist.

 

i apologize if i didn't explain this clearly, but if you have some idea of what im trying to say im looking for any outside input anybody is willing to offer.[/quote']

 

Wouldn't it also to be true that if an infinite number of planets meant that anything imaginable would exist, that since it is imaginable that a planet like ours would not exist, that that would prove that it didn't?

[Cadmus]

taking what i know about infinity and numbers, and how an infinite set of numbers does not necessarily need to contain every number that there is i argued with them, saying that while it is possible that this planet could exist, it does not HAVE to, if there are infinite possiblities of planets that could exist, than there is nothing to say that a planet where everybody speaks spanish needs to exist.

I personally have nothing to contribute to your argument. However, there was an article in the May of 2003 Scientific American entitled Infinite Earths In Parallel Universes Really Exist that describes the implications of infinite parallel earths concerning permutations such as the one that you mentioned. You might be able to access it at http://www.sciam.com.

[J.C.MacSwell]

the other day i found myself in a heated debate with two of my friends about infinite possibilities.

 

their claim was that while adhering to the belief that the universe is infinite' date=' any kind of planet that could possibly exist WILL exist.

 

they used the example of a planet 100% identical to ours, the only exception being everybody spoke spanish.

 

taking what i know about infinity and numbers, and how an infinite set of numbers does not necessarily need to contain every number that there is i argued with them, saying that while it is possible that this planet could exist, it does not HAVE to, if there are infinite possiblities of planets that could exist, than there is nothing to say that a planet where everybody speaks spanish needs to exist.

 

i apologize if i didn't explain this clearly, but if you have some idea of what im trying to say im looking for any outside input anybody is willing to offer.[/quote']

 

Not sure if a a planet 100% identical to ours, the only exception being everybody spoke spanish, could exist. How could it have evolved?

But, if it could there would be an infinite number of them.

 

It's probably a silly thing to point out.

 

(In my defence, I would like to point out that in the vast majority of infite Earth's out there like this one I had something much more intelligent to say)

[[Tycho?]]

No, an infinite universe does not mean that all possibilites are realized.

 

I'm also pretty sure that the amount of mass in the universe is finite.

[Guest leet_azn_mas]

']No' date=' an infinite universe does not mean that all possibilites are realized.

[/quote']

 

you seem rather sure of that, any chance you could elaborate on why? i dont like to be an annoyance but in addition to wanting to prove myself right, i'm also seeking a way to better explain it.

[Cadmus]

you seem rather sure of that, any chance you could elaborate on why? i dont like to be an annoyance but in addition to wanting to prove myself right, i'm also seeking a way to better explain it.

Tycho did not claim to be sure, he said that he is "pretty sure". Perhaps he expects all question to cease on the basis of that.

[Guest leet_azn_mas]

i did not mean it in a rude way, and i apologize if it seemed so. it just seemed to me he would be able to provide some kind of reasoning behind his statement, which would be greatly appreciated seeing as how my reasoning isnt exactly doing the job heh.

[reverse]

it's a funny one to get your head around.

 

infinity is hard to figure.

I seem to remember something about calculating for infinity minus one or plus one to get over the paradox.

 

Can you run some numbers?

[Sayonara]

you seem rather sure of that, any chance you could elaborate on why? i dont like to be an annoyance but in addition to wanting to prove myself right, i'm also seeking a way to better explain it.

Because, although it sounds contradictory, not all possibilities are possible.

 

For instance there will not be any planets made exclusively of jam and elephants.

[mezarashi]

Well, let's see. My way of approaching this problem would be assume that all the possibilities take some form of statistical curve. Just suppose anything say a normal curve. The curve extends to infinity in either direction. However, the chances that the outliers will occur are so little. 0.00000000000294 for example. However, with a sample large enough, there is a chance it will occur, and occur pretty often too. With an infinite sample, I don't see why ever thing on the statistical curve of possibility will not occur.

 

So simply said, my answer is that *if* the universe is indeed infinite, yeah, I would imagine a world exactly like ours and many others similar to it. However, I don't believe in infinity so hehe, too bad there.

[Sayonara]

Bear in mind that your model is already broken, because in order for all planetary possibilities to be realised, there has to be an infinite number of planets.

 

That is quite clearly not the case, nor could it be.

[ed84c]

Multiverse sayo? (no i dont believe it exists)

 

but figure this. Infinite worlds. Only a few are earth like. Few/ Inifinity * 100 = 0% of the universe contains these.

 

Ill try and find the quote for this.

[J.C.MacSwell]

Because' date=' although it sounds contradictory, not all possibilities are possible.

 

For instance there will not be any planets made exclusively of jam and elephants.[/quote']

 

Let's say you "investigated" a billion planets the first second and every second you doubled the amount you had investigated the previous second. A year later you would have found no elephant jam planets and would start to feel pretty sure of yourself. 2 years later you would be getting pretty cocky. You would probably think "maybe it wasn't possible after all". But sometime in the third year you will come across a marmalade and beaver planet and your confidence would be shaken. Shortly after that you will engulfed in elephant and jam planets and won't know what to do with them all. Fortunately you have infinite space...

[YT2095]

I think the point is being missed here.

 

by deffinition, a planet cannot be made of jam and elephants, it wouldn`t be a planet, it would be a mess! certainly, but not a planet

 

 

his comment is perfectly safe.

[Sayonara]

Multiverse sayo? (no i dont believe it exists)

This thread is about "the universe", i.e. - this one.

[Sayonara]

by deffinition, a planet cannot be made of jam and elephants, it wouldn`t be a planet, it would be a mess! certainly, but not a planet

Actually you're wrong: the definition of planet does not attempt to specify compositional criteria, on account of it not being relevant.

[YT2095]

it does when you used the word "exclusively".

 

I saw that word as being KEY to your arg.

 

and yes there is a definition, else why aren`t stars or Moons or asteroids called Planets?

[Sayonara]

Because the definition of planet specifies that the body must be bigger than that. Planetoid would be the next step down.

 

What has my choice of adjectives got to do with anything? If you are going to make an argument by definition, at least read the definition.

[YT2095]

so your saying I`m right for the wrong reasons?

[Sayonara]

No.

[YT2095]

what then?

 

a "planet" made EXCLUSIVELY from jam and elephants will:

 

1) either Not exist by deffinition.

2) or not exist because...?

[Sayonara]

It's really very simple:

 

1) The definition of planet specifies no compositional criteria,

 

therefore

 

2) If there are infinite possibilities, we might reasonably expect to find a planet made out of something wacky at some point,

 

however

 

3) Since you can't have a non-infinite factor of infinity in real terms, there must be a finite number of planets,

 

thus

 

4) Not all possibilities can be realised, so there are not going to be planets with developmental routes that make no sense.

[YT2095]

so you can`t rule it out either then?

 

even a 1 : 1,000,000 chance can occur 1`st time.

 

my reasoning to further support your original argument against it is that to be made EXCLUSIVELY of those two ingredients, would not be possible! and were it to exist it would not constitute a planet, a MESS yes, a planet No.

[Sayonara]

I think the point is being missed here.

lol