Capital punishment is justice served by it?

[Alan McDougall]

The Death Penalty by Alan McDougall

 

This is an ongoing subject but in my country of South Africa where the death penalty's been abolished from law crime is now rampant and risen to unimaginable heights

South Africa my country has discontinued with capital punishment against the wishes of the majority and crime has worsened unimaginably. I believe only Colombia has worse crime statistics

I think there is a point in that, one of the arguments pro-capital punishments being deterrence of future crimes.

Personally, I'm more of a 'murdering a murderer isn't justice, just more murder' kind of guy. Life was indeed ended, and as it warranted murder in the first degree then it was probably with malicious intent, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it makes it okay for anyone to kill the murderer. Then what separates us?

 

Capital punishment, be it moral, immoral or amoral is responsible, in theory at least: those that enable execution take responsibility for the life or death of a convicted criminal. Also, it is a human system and thus fallible. Thus an innocent person in a society having capital punishment may be killed and the responsible parties are responsible for that death. I would not call this legalized murder, but it is legalized manslaughter. Some may write this off as collateral damage, but to what end?

One need not assign moral value to state executions unless one can show that they are required in some way: only then does this become a question of the lesser of two evils. Capital punishment has been an important issue for as long as I can remember, and I have always considered and reconsidered the issue and my stance on it, and never have I heard of realized the justification for its requirement. I think this is because people either start from the point of view of it being right or wrong, never of whether it is necessary.

For instance, the banning of capital punishment in South Africa appears to have a clear correlation with increased crime, but one must have some idea of what this correlation is before one could sanction its reinstatement, or else you're sponsoring execution 'just in case'. Why doesn't life imprisonment do the same trick? Both are strong incentives to obey the law.

 

In conclusion the death penalty, in my opinion would/did give a real sense of closer to the families of the victims of hideous serial killers like the cannibal, Jeffrey Darhma , or Ted Bundy or our particular serial Killer Joseph Setoli who raped and then murdered 38 woman

Alan Grant McDougall 1998

[swansont]

one of the arguments pro-capital punishments being deterrence of future crimes.

 

It would be nice if that one were to use that argument that it had some merit to it. In the US, it does not appear to be the case. Not only is there a lack of correlation showing that the death penalty lowered murder rates, the correlations seems to be in the other direction.

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=82

 

There seems to be a stronger correlation with gun ownership, and places with more relaxed gun ownership laws tend to also support the death penalty. That means if there is a deterrence, it is small compared to the effect of having a lot of guns around. Which supports the notion that people really aren't thinking about going to jail or being executed when they kill someone, and thus the punishment isn't a deterrent.

[StringJunky]

What's wrong with plain and simple retribution as a reason for justifying its application? Note: I'm only talking about the principle of judicially applied revenge or retribution and not considering here the complication of proof of guilt.

Edited January 8, 2014 by StringJunky

[Alan McDougall]

 

It would be nice if that one were to use that argument that it had some merit to it. In the US, it does not appear to be the case. Not only is there a lack of correlation showing that the death penalty lowered murder rates, the correlations seems to be in the other direction.

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=82

 

There seems to be a stronger correlation with gun ownership, and places with more relaxed gun ownership laws tend to also support the death penalty. That means if there is a deterrence, it is small compared to the effect of having a lot of guns around. Which supports the notion that people really aren't thinking about going to jail or being executed when they kill someone, and thus the punishment isn't a deterrent.

 

South Africa has extremely strict gun laws that make it almost impossible for the average citizen to obtain a gun legally. But you can go down to a street corner and obtain AK 47 for a few dollars, a pistol is even easier to get. It seems to average South African citizen is being held hostage by the criminals. People here are being shot for their cell phones,murdered for a dollar, we have the unimaginable crime of men raping little babies because they think it is a cure for aids, or even worse as depraved pedophiles.

 

A Saturday evening group fun activity is the famous South African pastime of necklacing, here groups of so called vigilantes roam the streets, grab an unlucky person , put an old care tire around his neck, pour gasoline on the horrified, terrified victim and watch him burn alive, until all that is left of him, is charcoal.

[John Cuthber]

I know this is simplistic but...

There are 3 groups of people who commit serious crimes- let's stick with murder as that's the crime most often associated with capital punishment.

1 Those who do it in the heat of the moment.

These people are not considering the next two minutes of their lives, never mind anything else. No potential punishment will affect them because they don't stop to consider it.

 

2 Those who carefully plan their crime in order to avoid detection or prosecution.

These people don't expect to get caught- so any potential punishment won't seem relevant to them.

 

3 those who don't fall into either of those groups- they plan to commit the crime, but accept that they are likely to get caught.

These people are already on a hiding to nothing- if the thought of life imprisonment doesn't deter them then the death penalty probably won't either.

 

So, why do people think that the death penalty has a deterrent effect?

Which group do the think will be deterred by it?

 

Also, you say "This is an ongoing subject but in my country of South Africa where the death penalty's been abolished from law crime is now rampant and risen to unimaginable heights"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

 

There are of course other issues-

I'd prefer not to be seen as a killer- even by proxy (if I support a legislature that kills then I support killing)

and how do you deal with the cases where someone is cleared? With life in prison, at least you can release them. How do you revoke a death sentence?

And, there's the idea that you might be judged by the company you keep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country

[Alan McDougall]

What's wrong with plain and simple retribution as a reason for justifying its application? Note: I'm only talking about the principle of judicially applied revenge or retribution and not considering here the complication of proof of guilt.

 

Do you mean the "eye for an eye" justice of the Old Testament?

[StringJunky]

Alan McDougall, on 08 Jan 2014 - 9:48 PM, said:Alan McDougall, on 08 Jan 2014 - 9:48 PM, said:

 

Do you mean the "eye for an eye" justice of the Old Testament?

Not literally like they do in Islamic countries for all levels of crime but for such crimes against humanity that are beyond thoughts of considering rehabilitation as an option for the offender.

Edited January 8, 2014 by StringJunky

[Alan McDougall]

I know this is simplistic but...

There are 3 groups of people who commit serious crimes- let's stick with murder as that's the crime most often associated with capital punishment.

1 Those who do it in the heat of the moment.

These people are not considering the next two minutes of their lives, never mind anything else. No potential punishment will affect them because they don't stop to consider it.

 

2 Those who carefully plan their crime in order to avoid detection or prosecution.

These people don't expect to get caught- so any potential punishment won't seem relevant to them.

 

3 those who don't fall into either of those groups- they plan to commit the crime, but accept that they are likely to get caught.

These people are already on a hiding to nothing- if the thought of life imprisonment doesn't deter them then the death penalty probably won't either.

 

So, why do people think that the death penalty has a deterrent effect?

Which group do the think will be deterred by it?

 

Also, you say "This is an ongoing subject but in my country of South Africa where the death penalty's been abolished from law crime is now rampant and risen to unimaginable heights"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

 

There are of course other issues-

I'd prefer not to be seen as a killer- even by proxy (if I support a legislature that kills then I support killing)

and how do you deal with the cases where someone is cleared? With life in prison, at least you can release them. How do you revoke a death sentence?

And, there's the idea that you might be judged by the company you keep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country

 

So you think my statement about rampant crime in SA is a fallacy, call it what you like come and visit us and the reality of it might hit you very hard South Africa has become a place where both black and white citizens have erected huge up to 9 foot walls, with electrified razor wire like a maximum security prison .This is not a philosophical topic but an awful reality that my family and I have had to live through.

 

Crime in South Africa after free elections in 1994

By Alan McDougall

 

You are right about SA and crime, below is a summary that I have altered to reflect the real truth and reality we have to exist in South Africa

 

South Africa is now the most violent country outside a war zone. The country, writes Scott Baldauf of the Christian Science Monitor, has “the highest recorded per capita murder rate in the world—with 62 homicides per 100,000 people. The US, by comparison, had 6.

 

In 2003, South Africa had 21,553 murders (population 44.6 million). In comparison, the “high crime” United States (population 288.2 million) suffered 16,110 murders in the same year...

 

The last true statistics available,” showed that between April 2011 and March 2012, about 32,793 people were murdered in South Africa, an average of about 90 a day in a nation of 50 million.. There were 40,516 attempted murders, 300,369 assaults with grievous injury, and 90,114 rapes of unimaginable brutality, sometimes gang rapes by twenty men or more on a young teenager, and even the unspeakable horror of tiny babies as young as three months of age, been raped by adult men, often killing these little children in the process?

 

The crimes are committed almost exclusively by black men, in the cities in equal proportion on innocent whites, blacks and Asians South Africans.

 

Most of South Africa's farming community have been murdered because they are considered to be the hated Afrikaners Boer or farmer. Thus these reprobates are biting off the hands that feed them, like some savage jungle animal. South Africa previously the bread basked of Africa might soon have to import food from abroad due to uncontrolled rampant crime.

 

The South African Medical Research Council claims there are approximately a third more murders in South Africa than the official police statistics reveal. A discrepancy of over 10,000 murders a year, shall we say a huge margin of error.

 

So in reality about 45, 000 or more innocent people were murdered in South Africa, during one statistical year and by comparison with USA, which had during the same period of time, only 16, 500 murders, with a population six times the size of that of South Africa.

 

Yet Westerners, conservatives included, praise the new dispensation in my old home. According to a columnist for The American Conservative, South Africa represents “the greatest triumph of chatter over machine-gun clatter.” “It’s not perfect,” this flaccid fool effuses, “and crime is at an all-time high in South-African cities, but at least the massacres are a thing of the past and life goes on much better than before.”

 

False!, few people know that during the decades of the repressive apartheid regime, only a few hundred Africans perished as a direct result of police brutality A horrible injustice, indubitably, but nothing approximating the carnage under “free” South Africa, where thousands of Africans perished every few months. Let us not beat about the bush; crime in South Africa is black on black and black on white. Not to bring up the racialist card again , but why is it that nearly all serious crimes in South Africa are not done by whites , but is nearly always done by black men on black men , woman and children and is always done by black men on white men, white woman and children. The same goes for other ethnic groups in South Africa; it is always black criminals murdering other groups and never the reverse

 

Alan McDougall 1998

 

A South African Citizen Writes

 

Take the travails of my extended family. Ordinarily, a one-case study does not a rule make. But not in this instance—you’d be hard pressed to find a family in democratic South Africa whose members have not been brutalized by barbarians. Mine includes a sister-in-law suffering permanent neurological damage after being assaulted by five Africans; a brother burglarized and beaten in his suburban fortress at 2:00am by an African gang (wife and infant son were miraculously spared). My father’s neighbour was shot point-blank in front of his little girls, as he exited his car to open the garage gates. My husband’s cousin and uncle were hijacked; aunt beaten within an inch of her life and raped. Two of his colleagues (that we know of) were murdered; one shot by African taxi drivers in broad daylight, as he left his girlfriend’s apartment.

 

Despite the oppressive, undesirable, political aspects of apartheid, law and order was maintained and common criminals were pursued and prosecuted, to the benefit of all. To appropriate the gallant words of Gen. Sir Charles Napier: Before 1994, when African men raped infants and tiny babies because the “practice” is considered a traditional salve or cure for AIDS, South African policemen followed their custom: they tied a rope around the rapist’s neck and hung him. Yes these beasts’ rape babies as young as six months old! The policemen who did this were mostly from the outraged black community.

Since the near-total collapse of law and order, the conviction rate hovers at 2.96 percent!

 

In conclusion Alan McDougall writes

 

The above reflects my daily reality, we have to live behind barbwire, electric fencing, and burglar bars like that of fort Knox and pay huge amounts of money to private security firms because the corrupt police cannot cope and are mostly criminals themselves.

 

My own daughter Alison has been accosted in her own home by these thieving criminals, her home was violated by these intruders, while her husband was away, and they stole nearly every item of value in her home , while as Alison and her children watched helplessly, fearing the worst was still to come.

 

It was only Alison’s intelligent foresight in engaging one of the criminals in conversation, relating to his personal struggle with poverty and finally getting him to perceive her as a fellow human being and not an object to be sexually violated. In fact one of these reprobates had begun to stroke her hair to the great distress of her daughter Daniela, before Alison got him to inform the others to leave her alone and just take the valuables from the house. This was a very close call, and I am sure Alison suffered from post traumatic stress and flash backs for years after the event and if I had been my normal self when this happened I would have insisted she went to counseling. I thank God that her husband Dave was not at home when this happened, because all of them might have all been murdered by these thugs.

 

I live here and have access to the real truth of the matter.

 

© Alan Grant McDougall 2003

[swansont]

 

South Africa has extremely strict gun laws that make it almost impossible for the average citizen to obtain a gun legally. But you can go down to a street corner and obtain AK 47 for a few dollars, a pistol is even easier to get. It seems to average South African citizen is being held hostage by the criminals. People here are being shot for their cell phones,murdered for a dollar, we have the unimaginable crime of men raping little babies because they think it is a cure for aids, or even worse as depraved pedophiles.

 

A Saturday evening group fun activity is the famous South African pastime of necklacing, here groups of so called vigilantes roam the streets, grab an unlucky person , put an old care tire around his neck, pour gasoline on the horrified, terrified victim and watch him burn alive, until all that is left of him, is charcoal.

 

So what's the evidence that capital punishment would deter this, or that the removal of it caused this behavior? As I have said, the correlation in the US seems to be the ease with which one can get guns, and your post does nothing to contradict that.

 

There are people who live outside the law. Making more laws, or making something "more illegal", has no effect on them.

[hypervalent_iodine]

Exactly which crime statistics are you referencing? Capital punishment was abolished in SA in 1995 and a cursory glance at violent crime statistics shows a pretty steady decline since that time. Do you have any citations to support your claim?

 

 

http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2013/downloads/police_station_figures_per_province.xls

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa#Murder

 

Edit: I'm also not sure why you're using the US as a comparison. The existence of the death penalty varies from state to state and as these tables show, states that do not use capital punishment have, on average, lower murder rates:

 

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

 

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

[Alan McDougall]

Exactly which crime statistics are you referencing? Capital punishment was abolished in SA in 1995 and a cursory glance at violent crime statistics shows a pretty steady decline since that time. Do you have any citations to support your claim?

 

 

http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2013/downloads/police_station_figures_per_province.xls

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa#Murder

 

Edit: I'm also not sure why you're using the US as a comparison. The existence of the death penalty varies from state to state and as these tables show, states that do not use capital punishment have, on average, lower murder rates:

 

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

 

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

 

Your link to Wikipedia which supposedly reflects South African Police statics is just an example of our police lying to the public,to bolster their pathetic efforts to limit crime over here. Unlike you I live in SA and exist in this reality, it is easy to post statistics of a corrupt organization, but have you read the book " How to lie with statistics" that link is a perfect example!

 

Do you think that Wikipedia is a reliable source?

 

Police brutality is a common event in SA.

 

The comparison made between the annual murder rate between that of South Africa and that of the USA was just that, the whole of USA which with a population of some 300 million people, have less murders in a year than South Africa with a population of 50 million. That is a statistic that should speak to you!I

 

So what's the evidence that capital punishment would deter this, or that the removal of it caused this behavior? As I have said, the correlation in the US seems to be the ease with which one can get guns, and your post does nothing to contradict that.

 

There are people who live outside the law. Making more laws, or making something "more illegal", has no effect on them.

 

In South Africa it is the criminals that have easy access to illegal guns, in the USA nearly everyone, get a gun legally by going to the nearest gun shop, surely you can see the contrast between these two countries.

 

The USA has millions of citizens with guns, in South Africa we have millions of criminals with guns, that is a huge difference in my opinion.

[hypervalent_iodine]

The data in table appears to reflect official data and while their citation for that is dead, the first link that I provided and you glossed over is not. It confirms the trend in the wiki article. As do the other links I provided. Where are your statistics again?

 

 

The comparison made between the annual murder rate between that of South Africa and that of the USA was just that, the whole of USA which with a population of some 300 million people, have less murders in a year than South Africa with a population of 50 million. That is a statistic that should speak to you!I

Yes, crime is bad in SA. I'm not trying to deny that. However, there are plenty of countries that have higher murder rates than the US and there are even plenty that have higher rates than SA. I don't see what relevance that has to this argument if you're not trying to compare them concurrently with the use of the death penalty.

[swansont]

 

 

In South Africa it is the criminals that have easy access to illegal guns, in the USA nearly everyone, get a gun legally by going to the nearest gun shop, surely you can see the contrast between these two countries.

 

The USA has millions of citizens with guns, in South Africa we have millions of criminals with guns, that is a huge difference in my opinion.

 

We have millions of criminals with guns, too. Or is it your contention that in the US only non-criminals commit murder?

 

You have still not presented one iota of support for the claim that having the death penalty acts as a deterrent.

[Alan McDougall]

 

So what's the evidence that capital punishment would deter this, or that the removal of it caused this behavior? As I have said, the correlation in the US seems to be the ease with which one can get guns, and your post does nothing to contradict that.

 

There are people who live outside the law. Making more laws, or making something "more illegal", has no effect on them.

 

If you had taken the time to read through my opening post, I made no mention of capital punishment being a deterrent of criminal murders, they will murder her and to hell with the rest of humanity.

 

I wrote this in my post 1

 

Alan McDougall quoted

Personally, I'm more of a 'murdering a murderer isn't justice, just more murder' kind of guy. Life was indeed ended, and as it warranted murder in the first degree then it was probably with malicious intent, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it makes it okay for anyone to kill the murderer. Then what separates us?

 

 

We have millions of criminals with guns, too. Or is it your contention that in the US only non-criminals commit murder?

 

You have still not presented one iota of support for the claim that having the death penalty acts as a deterrent.

 

I never said anything about capital punishment being a deterrent, the purpose of this thread was to generate dialogue, such as capital punishment bringing closer the the victims family, instead of knowing that a depraved serial killer is being kept in prison at the cost of the state.

 

Alan McDougall quoted

Personally, I'm more of a 'murdering a murderer isn't justice, just more murder' kind of guy. Life was indeed ended, and as it warranted murder in the first degree then it was probably with malicious intent, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it makes it okay for anyone to kill the murderer. Then what separates us?

 

 

[hypervalent_iodine]

You said this:

 

South Africa my country has discontinued with capital punishment against the wishes of the majority and crime has worsened unimaginably.

It's reasonable to assume that you were implying a relationship between the two events (even if you can't actually show that crime has 'worsened unimaginably'), especially when you follow it up with this:

 

For instance, the banning of capital punishment in South Africa appears to have a clear correlation with increased crime...

It's easy to see why people might take that to mean that you think capital punishment reduces crime.

[swansont]

If you had taken the time to read through my opening post, I made no mention of capital punishment being a deterrent of criminal murders, they will murder her and to hell with the rest of humanity.

 

I wrote this in my post 1

 

 

 

I never said anything about capital punishment being a deterrent, the purpose of this thread was to generate dialogue, such as capital punishment bringing closer the the victims family, instead of knowing that a depraved serial killer is being kept in prison at the cost of the state.

You also wrote this

 

I think there is a point in that, one of the arguments pro-capital punishments being deterrence of future crimes.

and this

 

Why doesn't life imprisonment do the same trick? Both are strong incentives to obey the law.

It seemed pretty clear to me that you were advancing the opinion that capital punishment is a deterrent. I am confused by your current claim that you made no mention of this.

[Alan McDougall]

Exactly which crime statistics are you referencing? Capital punishment was abolished in SA in 1995 and a cursory glance at violent crime statistics shows a pretty steady decline since that time. Do you have any citations to support your claim?

 

 

 

You stated in this post that statistics shows a pretty steady decline since the abolishment of capital punishment in South Africa in 1995, in this you were wrong or your citations were inaccurate..

 

http://africacheck.org/factsheets/factsheet-south-africas-official-crime-statistics-for-201213/

 

The facts about the increases in interpersonal violence are as follows:

• Incidents of murder increased from 15 609 murders in 2011/12 to 16 259 murders in 2012/13.
• This means that there was an increase of 650 murder cases or a 4,2% increase when comparing the total numbers of murders with the previous year.
• This works out to almost two additional murders per day on average during the 2012/13 financial year.
• Consequently, our murder rate increased from a total average of 43 murders per day to 45 murders per day.
• Using the correct census data for 2011, the murder rate in 2011/12 was 30.3 per 100,000 population and not 30,9 as reported by SAPS in the last reporting period.
• The murder rate for 2012/13 stood at 31.3 per 100,000 population which reflects an increase of 2.8% in the rate of murders (not 0.6% as presented officially).
• South Africa’s murder rate is therefore about four and a half times higher than the global average of 6.9 murders per 100 000.
• Attempted murder cases increased from 14 859 to 16 363, an increase of 10.1%
• Attempted murder rates increased by 8,7% in the past year.
• Sexual offence cases increased from 64 514 to 66 387, an increase of 2.9%.
• Sexual offence rates increased from 125,1 per 100000 to 127,0 per 100000 population an increase of 1.5%.

 

There has also been an increase in robberies in 2012/13, which is a crime that the police can directly reduce through employing effective strategies. Robberies pose a particular concern as they occur when armed perpetrators directly threaten or use violence against their victims in order to steal their belongings. This can result in severe trauma, injury or sometimes death to the victim. The total number of aggravated robberies reported to the police increased from 101 203 cases to 105 888 cases (an increase of 4 685 cases) or 4.6%. The aggravated robbery rate increased by 196.2 per 100 000 people to 202.6 per 100 000 people of which represents an increase of 3.2%.

 

Carjacking, house robbery and business robbery) increased substantially. Between 2004/05 and 2008/09 business robbery had increased by 319%, house robbery by 96% and hijacking by 20%. These crimes drive fear and insecurity as they affect victims in their homes, vehicles and places of work. -

 

· Residential burglary increased by 6.8% (an additional 16 582 cases) to a total 262 113 incidents in 2012/13. This means that each day on average 720 households were burgled.

· Business burglary increased by 5.1% (an additional 3 589 cases) to a total of 70 041 incidents. This means that each day on average 193 businesses were burgled.

· Theft out of and from motor vehicle rate increased by 7% (an additional 9 183 cases) to a total of 130 475 incidents. This means that each day on average 358 vehicles are broken into and property stolen.

· Commercial crime incidents (which include a range of crimes including fraud and corruption) increased by 4% (an additional 3 019 cases) to a total of 91 569 incidents. A single incident can involve tens of millions of Rands. R1O = $1

 

Explaining crime in the past year 2012/2013

 

The crime statistics presented for the 2012/13 financial year (1 April 2012 to 31 March 2013) reveals that South Africa experienced one of its worst years in a number of years from a crime reduction point of view. This is because for the past eight years between 2002 and 2011 there have been notable decreases in most crime categories. Some of the largest decreases were recorded in 2009/10 when the football Confederation Cup year was held and in 2010/11 when South Africa hosted the FIFA World Cup. However, since 2011/12 it was already apparent that the decreases previously recorded in several types of violent crime had slowed substantially while other violent crime categories (such as business and house robberies) had stabilized at relatively high levels (I accept this as fact my comment Alan).

 

Driving under the influence of alcohol showed by far the smallest increase during 2012/2013 compared to any other 12-month period over the past decade.

 

Drug related crime on the other hand increased by a substantial 13,5% It was the single largest annual increase in the past decade. This indicates concerted police action against drug crimes. However, it is not an indication of the amount of drugs being used or sold. If the police are having a positive impact in removing drugs then the best indicator is that the street price should increase because demand will start to outstrip supply.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Alan McDougall

[swansont]

An increase from 2012-2013 does not contradict an overall downward trend, and how could an increase in the past year alone have been caused by a policy change in the death penalty that happened 20 years ago?

 

The murder rate appears to have dropped in half from 1994/95 to 2010/11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa

 

I don't see how most of the other crimes would be affected by a policy change, unless SA used to execute burglars and carjackers. Is that the case?

 

Are there any other policy changes that might affect crime rates, like cuts to police departments, or budgets not scaling with population increases? It's been found that rates pretty much everywhere go up faster than the population in large cities, i.e. when you double the size of the city, the crime rate goes up by ~15% (i.e. you have more than twice as much crime)

 

http://www.santafe.edu/news/item/city-ranking-bettencourt/

[John Cuthber]

"So you think my statement about rampant crime in SA is a fallacy, call it what you like come and visit us and the reality of it might hit you very hard South Africa has become a place where both black and white citizens have erected huge up to 9 foot walls, with electrified razor wire like a maximum security prison .This is not a philosophical topic but an awful reality that my family and I have had to live through."

 

Did you deliberately miss the point?

 

Saying "something happened after something else" doesn't prove it was caused by it.

So, the increased violence and crime in SA isn't necessarily caused by (or even related to) the abolition of the death penalty.

 

BTW, I have family in Jo'burg and near Durban. I know what the place is like. it's just that I know better than to blame it on the lack of capital punishment.

[Alan McDougall]

"So you think my statement about rampant crime in SA is a fallacy, call it what you like come and visit us and the reality of it might hit you very hard South Africa has become a place where both black and white citizens have erected huge up to 9 foot walls, with electrified razor wire like a maximum security prison .This is not a philosophical topic but an awful reality that my family and I have had to live through."

 

Did you deliberately miss the point?

 

Saying "something happened after something else" doesn't prove it was caused by it.

So, the increased violence and crime in SA isn't necessarily caused by (or even related to) the abolition of the death penalty.

 

BTW, I have family in Jo'burg and near Durban. I know what the place is like. it's just that I know better than to blame it on the lack of capital punishment.

 

I did not "blame anything on the lack of capital punishment" "I am not trying to prove anything". This is not a philosophical argument, thus calling the murder of thousands a fallacy, because something happened before it, is nonsense and an attempt to highjack the thread with your own logic.

 

You don't sit back, with your hand on your fist like the 'Thinker" and philosophy/muse about last night when they murdered my husband or wife as they were reversing out of their driveway to go to work.

 

Or when he returned from works , as was the case with my neighbor who was gunned down in his driveway killed for the possession of his car by these callous thugs . Or when they broke into my daughters home, threatened to rape and murder her in front of her two young children, my beloved grandchildren at that!

[hypervalent_iodine]

You still haven't explained how one single data point means that crime has worsened considerably since 1995, when the general trend is quite clearly the reverse.

 

I did not "blame anything on the lack of capital punishment"

Really? Seems to me like you're blaming an increase in crime on it to me.

 

You don't sit back, with your hand on your fist like the 'Thinker" and philosophy/muse about last night when they murdered my husband or wife as they were reversing out of their driveway to go to work.

 

Or when he returned from works , as was the case with my neighbor who was gunned down in his driveway killed for the possession of his car by these callous thugs . Or when they broke into my daughters home, threatened to rape and murder her in front of her two young children, my beloved grandchildren at that!

What's your point? No one in this thread has tried to say that crime in SA isn't bad. I am unsure why you are spending so much time trying to convince us of that single fact when it is clear that no one has disagreed with you on it. What we are saying is that crime rates have dropped since 1995, since that was the actual claim you made in reference to capital punishment. You still haven't been able to make a compelling case in counter to the statistics you have been shown and your anecdote, while tragic, is irrelevant to this thread.

[Alan McDougall]

An increase from 2012-2013 does not contradict an overall downward trend, and how could an increase in the past year alone have been caused by a policy change in the death penalty that happened 20 years ago?

 

The murder rate appears to have dropped in half from 1994/95 to 2010/11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa

 

I don't see how most of the other crimes would be affected by a policy change, unless SA used to execute burglars and carjackers. Is that the case?

 

Are there any other policy changes that might affect crime rates, like cuts to police departments, or budgets not scaling with population increases? It's been found that rates pretty much everywhere go up faster than the population in large cities, i.e. when you double the size of the city, the crime rate goes up by ~15% (i.e. you have more than twice as much crime)

 

http://www.santafe.edu/news/item/city-ranking-bettencourt/

 

The statistics of murder during the early 1990's are skewed because South Africa was on the brink of a civil war after the murder of Chris Hanie by two while South Africans, there was also tribal conflicts between the Zulu and Khosa people during the transition period that was anything but peaceful. If Nelson Mandela had come out of prison spitting hate, revenge and retribution a civil war would have happened that would made the present Syrian civil war , look like a kiddies pick-nick party by comparison.

 

People in South Africa were perplexed by the huge increase in violent crime after the free elections in 1994, we should have all been rejoicing in a new freedom, instead we had to barricade ourselves behind high walls, razor wire, and sophisticated electronic security systems, as well as armed guards on call for those who could afford it.

 

South Africa is a much nicer place in 2014 than it was under the Apartheid regime or during the 1990' years of crises. However the state used the brutal Apartheid police, rule the country, as far as they could with an iron fist, and this might be a reason why there was less violent crime then, than during and after the rule of free democracy elections in South Africa, in April 1994.

 

When I was in hospital I met a former prison guard of the Pretoria Maximum Security Prison. I asked him if he were ever in attendant during an execution, which was by hanging in South Africa, he said countless times, and to my surprise and horror he told me they never executed convicted criminals one by one, but would put up to nine prisoners on a large platform and hang them all at once, sort of mass produced executions,we were both in a psychiatric hospital in the city of Pretoria at the time for similar reasons of which I will not speak about because of the pain and horror of flashbacks.

I wrote this some time ago and here I addressed some of the reasons for the crime epidemic in South Africa

 

The walled-in fortified nation.

 

Visitors to the beautiful land of South Africa are surprised after they get off the plane and travel through cities of South Africa They are amazed and confused with the maze of houses, confined behind high walls fortified by electric razor wire. The large beautiful houses in urban South Africa are almost impossible to see from the street. I think the visitors might think of the home owners as the inmates of a huge prison,while criminals are on the outside on the loose as prison guards, walking and prowling the streets outside, just waiting to pounce on innocent victims. Normal law abiding citizens of every persuasion are barricaded, confined, barred in and imprisoned in their own homes, out of fear from these evil monsters. This situation is bizarre and I wonder if it happens any other country.?

 

The prime reason for the huge increase in crime these last few years has been the government's continual refusal to acknowledge that there actually is a high crime wave in South Africa It is a national disaster, needing emergency methods to deal with it now and not in the future. Soft interpretation of our liberal constitution,have resulted in the perpetrator getting off light sentences for horrendous depraved crimes that seem to be unique to S.A,. The rape of babies is something unique to South Africa with very young children, innocent woman, men of all ages and even the very elderly suffering the same fate in this epidemic of horror. South Africa has become the rape capital of the world.

 

Murder is rampant throughout S.A and the killings are too often for the most ridiculously small rewards, such as a cell phone or R10 = $1 etc,. Unemployment and resulting poverty crime and grime are also major problems. Education must become a national priority. Overcrowding Of prisons are turning petty criminals into evil monsters. The easy availability and access to cheap street drugs and the easy access of unlawful guns to criminals and abnormal love of money and corruption of government which also them gives them power they should not have, according to the constitution which they ignore when it suits them.

 

It is now almost impossible for a decent law obeying citizens to get a gun to protect himself and his family from these depraved monsters, while these criminals can get their hands on guns for as little as a $.1. The AK 47 machine gun is used against woman and children going about their shopping

 

The Government involves itself in setting out petty ridiculous laws such as the ban on public smoking or forbidding teenagers to kiss or cuddle and these nonsensical laws are given more focus and comment by the government than our horrendous crime rate and appalling poverty experienced in our beautiful land.

 

Then there is the unimaginable ignorance around the AIDS pandemic. By the government refusing to address this problems even sprouting nonsense like HIV never progresses to full blown AIDS. Sort of HIV is on Venus and AIDS is only found on Mars .This appalling lack of foresight and insight by the South African government is estimated to have resulted in the untimely death of about 400 000 people. These are the people who would still be living if they had been given the government with held antiviral medication in time. The desperate dying people were told by the idiot minister of health to each the African potato herb, mixed into a concoction of garlic and cabbage etc and other useless "STUFF"

 

In addition, money must be urgently allocated where it is most needed, not to sports stadiums; high speed trains, huge unnecessary arms deals etc, as examples. I feel that given the national disaster crime has become, it is also a national shame and a crime by us and the government to continue paying the ridiculously low salaries to the police officers and police woman that offer up their lives for us, for this puny reward. We must, give our police a living salary now, sooner than later" when it might indeed be too late for us all. In this beautiful country.

 

The hand of a gun and the loss of moral absolutes that comes with no accountability is sad and depressing, It is eat drink for tomorrow you die

 

By Alan McDougall 2004

Edited January 10, 2014 by Alan McDougall

[Marshalscienceguy]

I believe if its for higher offenders yes. Such as Rapists, killers, pedophiles. There is people who have been in and out on multiple times based on the same offense. If you let a person out of prison and each time they attack a new person clearly they are not changing and they are not going to. If its for something like drug sales, and buying drugs, or stealing no I do not think it should be. Some people just don't change and there is no use is saving someone who is not going to try and cares nothing for the victims they hurt. However I believe in cases of self defense killing should be dismissed if it can be proved as such.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Marshalscienceguy

[Villain]

Not sure why this is in the Ethics section.

 

The OP has also failed to mention the high Gini coefficient in South Africa which is more likely to have contributed to crime than the lack of the death penalty.

[imatfaal]

Not sure why this is in the Ethics section.

 

The OP has also failed to mention the high Gini coefficient in South Africa which is more likely to have contributed to crime than the lack of the death penalty.

 

The actual subject line of the OP makes for a good discussion - and as we have no jurisprudence/law forum then ethics is as good as anywhere. But other than that subject line the discussion has been more political and anecdotal than ethical