Must a person always tell the truth?

[Alan McDougall]

Must a person always tell the truth, I will bounce the topic with that question?

[michel123456]

Yes.

[Moontanman]

Not if your wife asks do these pants make my ass look big...

[StringJunky]

Although it's morally pure and philosophically satisfying to say yes the outcome in the real world may suggest otherwise. Pragmatism rules the day, assuming one's desire is inflict the minimum of distress and their aim is for an amenable outcome, perhaps over the long-term, which might justify lying. In short, if the truth is going to hurt and no good is going to come out of it, lie.

[Alan McDougall]

Not if your wife asks do these pants make my ass look big...

 

You should tell her the truth, then maybe she will work out get in shape and increase her self esteem.

 

[ydoaPs]

If you're Kant, then yes. If you're sane, no. In Kant's day, he had the deranged axman. These days, we tend to use the Nazi example.

 

You are in WW2 Germany hiding Jews in the attic. Nazis kick down your door and demand you inform them if/where you are hiding Jews. They will kill the Jews if they find them. Do you lie?

[Alan McDougall]

Although it's morally pure and philosophically satisfying to say yes the outcome in the real world may suggest otherwise. Pragmatism rules the day, assuming one's desire is inflict the minimum of distress and their aim is for an amenable outcome, perhaps over the long-term, which might justify lying. In short, if the truth is going to hurt and no good is going to come out of it, lie.

 

Should you tell an otherwise happy person, that they are going to die of cancer, a fact their doctor told you, and said it was up to you to decide, because he could not bring up the courage to tell her himself?. He has being treating her for many years and had always given her hope and assurance that in time she would be cured

[Moontanman]

You should tell her the truth, then maybe she will work out get in shape and increase her self esteem.

 

 

Yeah... right... Been married long?

Edited January 8, 2014 by Moontanman

[StringJunky]

Alan McDougall, on 08 Jan 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

 

Should you tell an otherwise happy person, that they are going to die of cancer, a fact their doctor told you, and said it was up to you to decide, because he could not bring up the courage to tell her himself?. He has being treating her for many years and had always given her hope and assurance that in time she would be cured

Tell her the truth so that she may have the chance to come to peace with her destiny. Not telling her will lead to a worse final outcome.

[Lightmeow]

What is the definition of truth? I am good at warping things in my mind...

 

Is it tell the whole truth, the truth, and nothing but the truth(that doesn't sound right)

 

If it is, then no. Life would be boring if everyone told the truth.

[Moontanman]

I'd rather be smacked by the truth than kissed by a lie...

[Phi for All]

Always tell the truth, unless the consequences for a lie are acceptable to all concerned.

 

 

 

I'd rather be smacked by the truth than kissed by a lie...

 

... unless a politician is holding your baby.

[Alan McDougall]

If you're Kant, then yes. If you're sane, no. In Kant's day, he had the deranged axman. These days, we tend to use the Nazi example.

 

You are in WW2 Germany hiding Jews in the attic. Nazis kick down your door and demand you inform them if/where you are hiding Jews. They will kill the Jews if they find them. Do you lie?

 

That is a very difficult one, no one really knows for sure how brave they would be in a life or death situation. There is a saying , "No greater love is there when one lays down his life for a friend" I do know, however I would lie to save those very close to me, like my wife , children and grandchildren. But for strangers that is debatable, of course the reality of the Nazi situation if you tell the truth that you had hidden Jewish people in your home, your fate would become be the same as theirs, and you would most likely perish in the death camps.

 

Thus, I would lie, hoping against hope that I get away with it.

 

What would you do ?

Yeah... right... Been married long?

 

I am sure that I have been married much longer than you, at my age everyone is younger than me.

Tell her the truth so that she may have the chance to come to peace with her destiny. Not telling her will lead to a worse final outcome.

 

There are some people that are terrified by this awful truth, so I do not think it can be generalized like you suggest

Yes.

 

It is not as simple as that in the real world!

Yeah... right... Been married long?

 

You are a mere spring chicken, share nearly all the same interests .

[Greg H.]

My ethics professor once posed the following question to our class when I was a freshman:

 

"When is it socially acceptable to tell a lie?"

 

I found the phrasing of the question odd, since I, like many others, had always been told as a child "Don't lie - it's bad!" But the question, as asked, is predicated on the idea that there are times when lying is acceptable.

 

As I see it, there are two times when it's socially acceptable to lie:

 

1. When telling a lie prevents the greater of two "evils" from occuring (i.e. the murderous ax-man argument alluded to before).

2. When the person being lied to is agreeable to the falsehood. If I specifically ask you to lie to me, you're off the hook, as it were. You could even stretch the idea and consider fiction (books and movies) to be socially acceptable "lies" under this premise.

 

It's really a question of situational versus universal ethics. Philosophically speaking, universal ethics are what most people aspire to (unless you're a sociopath). In general, people want to be moral, do good, and be thought of as ethical people. In reality, I don't know of anyone who hasn't fallen short of the mark in some fashion at some point in their lives. We live a world defined by events, and our ethical system tends to be more situational as a resuit.

[Phi for All]

It's really a question of situational versus universal ethics. Philosophically speaking, universal ethics are what most people aspire to (unless you're a sociopath). In general, people want to be moral, do good, and be thought of as ethical people. In reality, I don't know of anyone who hasn't fallen short of the mark in some fashion at some point in their lives. We live a world defined by events, and our ethical system tends to be more situational as a resuit.

 

This is spot on, imo, Lying is an advanced intelligence event. When kids start lying, it's a sign that they're projecting themselves into the future, and realizing that the truth could get them in trouble at a later date. It's a good sign because it's signaling that this child is starting to plan ahead, knowing that his actions now have an affect on him in the future. Lying has it's place in our society, and shouldn't be taken away as a tool altogether. As others have shown, lies can be necessary and beneficial. Most aren't though, and that's why each situation needs to be examined.

 

I think the key ethically is what you're willing to sacrifice if your lie is found out. In the case of how a dress makes your wife look, the consequences are some hurt feelings, but most likely compassionate understanding will turn it into a non-issue. But if your lie involves important decisions, or may hurt someone while it saves you, can you live with the consequences whether you're found out or not?

 

As Greg H. mentions, we want to be thought of as ethical people. But the reality is that we often go too fast in our cars, endangering others as well as ourselves, and we sometimes take a bit more than our share, and we even take advantage of our fellow humans and call it competitive spirit or market economy or good horse-trading. In general, my conclusion is that being duplicitous about important things is too hard and involves too much brain damage; I'm too dumb to lie and too lazy to steal.

[Alan McDougall]

 

This is spot on, imo, Lying is an advanced intelligence event. When kids start lying, it's a sign that they're projecting themselves into the future, and realizing that the truth could get them in trouble at a later date. It's a good sign because it's signaling that this child is starting to plan ahead, knowing that his actions now have an affect on him in the future. Lying has it's place in our society, and shouldn't be taken away as a tool altogether. As others have shown, lies can be necessary and beneficial. Most aren't though, and that's why each situation needs to be examined.

 

I think the key ethically is what you're willing to sacrifice if your lie is found out. In the case of how a dress makes your wife look, the consequences are some hurt feelings, but most likely compassionate understanding will turn it into a non-issue. But if your lie involves important decisions, or may hurt someone while it saves you, can you live with the consequences whether you're found out or not?

 

As Greg H. mentions, we want to be thought of as ethical people. But the reality is that we often go too fast in our cars, endangering others as well as ourselves, and we sometimes take a bit more than our share, and we even take advantage of our fellow humans and call it competitive spirit or market economy or good horse-trading. In general, my conclusion is that being duplicitous about important things is too hard and involves too much brain damage; I'm too dumb to lie and too lazy to steal.

 

I think it takes a higher intellect to lie and difficult to perpetuate that lie without slipping up and been caught out and embarrassed to the point of feeling like a caged animal trying to escape

 

If you tell the truth, you are on safe ground and don't need to repeat it as it becomes self evident.

 

A guy went to his dentist and just before the procedure said seriously " Do you promise to pull the tooth the whole tooth and nothing other"?

[Phi for All]

 

If you tell the truth, you are on safe ground and don't need to repeat it as it becomes self evident.

 

To me, this is living righteously, not worrying about being caught in a lie simply because you don't tell them. A worthy, ethical goal, imo.

[michel123456]

If you're Kant, then yes. If you're sane, no. In Kant's day, he had the deranged axman. These days, we tend to use the Nazi example.

 

You are in WW2 Germany hiding Jews in the attic. Nazis kick down your door and demand you inform them if/where you are hiding Jews. They will kill the Jews if they find them. Do you lie?

In time of war ethics are somehow changed. It becomes ethical to kill someone you never met in your life because he wears another uniform, for example.

Anyway, if the Nazis knock your door, you are screwed. I am afraid very few can talk about this experience.

[Marshalscienceguy]

In some cases lying is necessary. However if you are like me a lot of times you might avoid lying by redirecting and avoiding certain questions all together. Which is not truly lying just choosing to withhold certain information.

[Alan McDougall]

In some cases lying is necessary. However if you are like me a lot of times you might avoid lying by redirecting and avoiding certain questions all together. Which is not truly lying just choosing to withhold certain information.

 

Withholding information is a form of deception, deception is always a lie.

 

I did some research on lying and if there were time when it was better to lie than tell the truth, and fund somewhat to my surprise it is a complex issue that philosophers have debate over many centuries. Most philosophers believe that lying is always wrong as is the case with Emmanuel Kant.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/lying/lying_1.shtml

 

Lying under serious threat

 

In a prison camp, lying can be used to gain an advantage

The reason for lying that gets most sympathy from people is lying because something terrible will happen if you don't lie. Examples include lying to protect a murderer's intended victim and lying to save oneself from death or serious injury.

 

These lies are thought less bad than other lies because they prevent a greater harm occurring; they are basically like other actions of justified self-defense or defense of an innocent victim.

Lying to enemies

 

When two countries are at war, the obligation to tell the truth is thought to be heavily reduced and deliberate deception is generally accepted as part of the way each side will try to send its opponent in the wrong direction, or fool the enemy into not taking particular actions.

 

In the same way each side accepts that there will be spies and that spies will lie under interrogation (this acceptance of spying doesn't benefit the individual spies much, as they are usually shot at the end of the day).

 

There are two main moral arguments for lying to enemies:

• Enemies do not deserve the same treatment as friends or neutrals, because enemies intend to do us harm and can't grumble if we harm them in return by lying to them
• Lying to enemies will prevent harm to many people, so the good consequences outweigh the bad ones.

Other types of lying Other types of lying Mental reservations

 

This legalistic device divides a statement into two parts: the first part is misleading, the two parts together are true - however only the first part is said aloud, the second part is a 'mental reservation'.

Here are some examples:

• "I have never cheated on my wife" (except last Thursday)
• "I did not steal the cakes" (on Thursday afternoon)
• "I did not touch the painting" (but my glove did)
• Flattery: 'you look lovely'
• Gratitude: 'that's just what I wanted'
• Formal language conventions: 'sincerely yours', 'pleased to meet you'
• Bargaining: 'my best price is £500'
• Generalisation: 'it always rains in Manchester'
• Advertising: '#### washes whitest'
  • If believing the advert might lead to bad consequences - for example in medical advertising - this would not count as a guilt-free lie.
• Jokes: 'there was an Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman'
• Unpredictable situations: 'it won't rain today'
• Sporting tips: 'Pegleg is unbeatable in the 3:30 race'
• False excuses: 'he's in a meeting'
• Conjuring tricks: 'There's nothing up my sleeve'

Edited January 12, 2014 by Alan McDougall

[Bill Angel]

I think it takes a higher intellect to lie and difficult to perpetuate that lie without slipping up and been caught out and embarrassed to the point of feeling like a caged animal trying to escape

 

If you tell the truth, you are on safe ground and don't need to repeat it as it becomes self evident.

 

That's a good point and it's likely related as to why companies sometimes use polygraph (i.e lie detector) machines to evaluate candidates for security clearances. If you're like most people, giving deceptive answers increases your stress levels, reflecting your fear of being found out.

[Marshalscienceguy]

 

 

Withholding information is a form of deception, deception is always a lie.

 

I did some research on lying and if there were time when it was better to lie than tell the truth, and fund somewhat to my surprise it is a complex issue that philosophers have debate over many centuries. Most philosophers believe that lying is always wrong as is the case with Emmanuel Kant.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/lying/lying_1.shtml

 

Lying under serious threat

 

In a prison camp, lying can be used to gain an advantage

The reason for lying that gets most sympathy from people is lying because something terrible will happen if you don't lie. Examples include lying to protect a murderer's intended victim and lying to save oneself from death or serious injury.

 

These lies are thought less bad than other lies because they prevent a greater harm occurring; they are basically like other actions of justified self-defense or defense of an innocent victim.

Lying to enemies

 

When two countries are at war, the obligation to tell the truth is thought to be heavily reduced and deliberate deception is generally accepted as part of the way each side will try to send its opponent in the wrong direction, or fool the enemy into not taking particular actions.

 

In the same way each side accepts that there will be spies and that spies will lie under interrogation (this acceptance of spying doesn't benefit the individual spies much, as they are usually shot at the end of the day).

 

There are two main moral arguments for lying to enemies:

• Enemies do not deserve the same treatment as friends or neutrals, because enemies intend to do us harm and can't grumble if we harm them in return by lying to them
• Lying to enemies will prevent harm to many people, so the good consequences outweigh the bad ones.

Other types of lying Other types of lying Mental reservations

 

This legalistic device divides a statement into two parts: the first part is misleading, the two parts together are true - however only the first part is said aloud, the second part is a 'mental reservation'.

Here are some examples:

• "I have never cheated on my wife" (except last Thursday)
• "I did not steal the cakes" (on Thursday afternoon)
• "I did not touch the painting" (but my glove did)
• Flattery: 'you look lovely'
• Gratitude: 'that's just what I wanted'
• Formal language conventions: 'sincerely yours', 'pleased to meet you'
• Bargaining: 'my best price is £500'
• Generalisation: 'it always rains in Manchester'
• Advertising: '#### washes whitest'
  • If believing the advert might lead to bad consequences - for example in medical advertising - this would not count as a guilt-free lie.
• Jokes: 'there was an Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman'
• Unpredictable situations: 'it won't rain today'
• Sporting tips: 'Pegleg is unbeatable in the 3:30 race'
• False excuses: 'he's in a meeting'
• Conjuring tricks: 'There's nothing up my sleeve'

 

A lie is a false statement to a person or group made by another person or group who knows it is not the whole truth, intentionally. Also under this logic we should tell everyone what we are thinking or doing all the time or else we must be lying. That and according to what you posted in the above link it says lies are deceptive but simply being deceptive does not make it a lie. So simply deceiving people does not make you a liar. So being secretive is not the same as being a liar and if you believe that do you also believe we have no right to privacy?

Edited January 13, 2014 by Marshalscienceguy

[Rajnish Kaushik]

not always a life saving and happiness giving lie is better then an killing and sad truth sometimes

[Alan McDougall]

That's a good point and it's likely related as to why companies sometimes use polygraph (i.e lie detector) machines to evaluate candidates for security clearances. If you're like most people, giving deceptive answers increases your stress levels, reflecting your fear of being found out.

 

I have never heard of companies using polygraphs, I am very surprised to hear than fact, I am not disputing your comment just surprised by it.

A lie is a false statement to a person or group made by another person or group who knows it is not the whole truth, intentionally. Also under this logic we should tell everyone what we are thinking or doing all the time or else we must be lying. That and according to what you posted in the above link it says lies are deceptive but simply being deceptive does not make it a lie. So simply deceiving people does not make you a liar. So being secretive is not the same as being a liar and if you believe that do you also believe we have no right to privacy?

 

Are you not confusing deception, with simply withholding information?

[Marshalscienceguy]

 

I have never heard of companies using polygraphs, I am very surprised to hear than fact, I am not disputing your comment just surprised by it.

 

Are you not confusing deception, with simply withholding information?

You stated that withholding information is being deceptive and being deception is always a lie. Yet what you posted says simply being deceptive does not make it a lie. You are the one who claimed I was being a liar by choosing not to share something. You are the one who stated it was deceptive. Even if we agreed it was deceptive according to the link all deceptions are not lies but lying is deceptive. So if you truly believe this anyone who has information they do not share with everyone must be a liar. So do we not have a right to privacy?

Edited January 13, 2014 by Marshalscienceguy