"Churches" abuse and depravity within its walls.

[Alan McDougall]

"Churches" Depravity

 

The reason why I used the word 'Churches" is that abuse is not confined to one Church denomination but happens in many , thus it is a generalizing phrase

 

The 2600-page report by Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse found

Rape was endemic in more than 250 Irish-"Churches" care institutions from the 1930s to the 1990s, and the "Churches" protected paedophiles from prosecution. Victims groups say the culture of abuse and cruelty in "Churches"" institutions in Australia last century could have been as shocking as that revealed in a nine-year Irish commission's report.

This adds to the sorry saga of the "Churches" in America where over a billion dollars was paid out to American victims of paedophilia. At the same time Irish Bishop Pat Buckley has confessed that some 500 of his priest’s to-day are having regular sex, wilfully exploiting their power, their status and their position over women. Surely with all this evidence it is time for the "Churches" to end its insistence on celibacy and readmit married priests into the "Churches".

There is nothing in the Bible that one has to be celibate to do religious work. There are Christian organizations where their priests and Christian Ministers are allowed to get married. There has to be more attention given to the human needs of the clergy.

In the meantime, you have thousands of priests around the world abusing their position to satisfy their physical needs exploiting, girls, women and children.

 

Unaddressed this whole issue will continue to create disharmony within the "Churches" and divert energy, resources and attention away from the critical issues that

face humanity

Surely these "Churches" must budge from the stone walls of silly traditions?

 

[swansont]

I'm not defending churches in any way, but marriage isn't a cure/solution for pedophilia.

[John Cuthber]

The thing about marriage is that one of the common outcomes is children.

Pedophiles with children to "look after" isn't a good idea.

 

 

Also, while I'm happy to throw proverbial rocks at the churches for their collective stand on this issue, they are not the only organisations which abetted pedophillia.

 

What is loosely called "the establishment" did the same. Plenty of those involved were married.

 

So, the problem isn't due to people who are unmarried and it may be the case that it's better if pedophiles don't marry.

I understand that the Catholic church only stopped their priests from getting married because of problems with inheritance- nothing to do with theology.

 

[Alan McDougall]

I'm not defending churches in any way, but marriage isn't a cure/solution for pedophilia.

 

I agree, but these priest are supposed to represent all that is good and moral in society, their flock often consider them as some sort of direct agent of a loving caring god, and the abuse is an ultimate betrayal to the community.

The thing about marriage is that one of the common outcomes is children.

Pedophiles with children to "look after" isn't a good idea.

 

 

Also, while I'm happy to throw proverbial rocks at the churches for their collective stand on this issue, they are not the only organisations which abetted pedophillia.

 

What is loosely called "the establishment" did the same. Plenty of those involved were married.

 

So, the problem isn't due to people who are unmarried and it may be the case that it's better if pedophiles don't marry.

I understand that the Catholic church only stopped their priests from getting married because of problems with inheritance- nothing to do with theology.

 

 

I did not point directly at the Catholic Church because this type of abuse by pastors and priest occur in many other denominations as well. The Methodist Church in Australia is one example, the Church of England another, it happens in the Jehovah Witnesses community also, it is wide spread in many religious organizations, because these people misuse of the trust invested in them by their followers. One way to best sum them up is "Depraved Hypocrites.

 

Your picture says a lot "A picture paints a thousand words"does it not?

Edited January 14, 2014 by Alan McDougall

[swansont]

 

I agree, but these priest are supposed to represent all that is good and moral in society, their flock often consider them as some sort of direct agent of a loving caring god, and the abuse is an ultimate betrayal to the community.

 

Coaches and teachers are supposed to be trusted folk, and abuse by them is a betrayal to the community as well. They can get married, and it doesn't solve the problem. The issue isn't confined to churches, nor to single people.

 

There's the problem of identifying and catching the pedophiles, and there's the problem of covering up the abuse. While they aren't totally unconnected, I think they are distinct enough that you could discuss each topic separately.

[Alan McDougall]

 

Coaches and teachers are supposed to be trusted folk, and abuse by them is a betrayal to the community as well. They can get married, and it doesn't solve the problem. The issue isn't confined to churches, nor to single people.

 

There's the problem of identifying and catching the pedophiles, and there's the problem of covering up the abuse. While they aren't totally unconnected, I think they are distinct enough that you could discuss each topic separately.

 

I can also see the abuse on a much wider level, I know about sexual abuse of adult football players by a trusted coach in America who is now in prison, but can you name one Catholic priest that has suffered the same fate. The Catholic Church protect their own, even if they were known dangerous sexual abusers of small children.

[swansont]

 

I can also see the abuse on a much wider level, I know about sexual abuse of adult football players by a trusted coach in America who is now in prison, but can you name one Catholic priest that has suffered the same fate. The Catholic Church protect their own, even if they were known dangerous sexual abusers of small children.

 

That was one of my points. That the priests can't marry is not the issue. But one of the issues is that after identifying a pedophile, the church covered it up and merely shipped the offender off to a new location.

[Alan McDougall]

 

That was one of my points. That the priests can't marry is not the issue. But one of the issues is that after identifying a pedophile, the church covered it up and merely shipped the offender off to a new location.

 

Correct but I assumed there must be some correlation between celibacy and abuse because the guilty priest were sexually frustrated, I will do a little more research if that supposition holds any water!

 

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/rebel-catholic-priest-says-celibacy-at-root-of-sexual-abuse-pandemic-in-church-223103081-237775321.html

 

Father Tony Flannery, the 66 year old Irish priest and founding member of the Association of Catholic Priests in Ireland (ACP) who has been threatened with excommunication from the Catholic Church for his outspokenness, has claimed this week that there is a link between clerical sex abuse and clerical celibacy.

 

Flannery said that the celibate lifestyles which priests were forced to live led to struggles over sexuality and could have resulted in children being sexually abused.

 

Priests faced an inevitable struggle with their sexuality, Flannery said.

 

'The Catholic Church in Ireland seems to believe that it has dealt with the problems of clerical sexual abuse by putting structures in place to protect children,' he said.

 

'Nobody within the official church has looked at the deeper issues and seriously asked the question why so many priests did these things because it raises fundamental questions about the lifestyle of priests.

 

'Can they say with any degree of definiteness that the fact that so many priests abused children is not connected to celibacy and clericalism and the whole style of life that a priest is forced to live?

 

'I don't think they can and until such time as the church authorities face up to that and seriously discuss it and investigate it, the problem will not go away.'

 

Priests were forced to live in isolation and lacked real human interaction, Flannery said. The loneliness and frustration led some to 'turn to children for sexual outlets,' he maintained.

 

Flannery made his comments before launching his book A Question of Conscience which questions the Vatican watchdog, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), in the methods it uses to stamp out any challenge it regards as a dissent.

 

According to the International Business Times Flannery encountered official pushback in February 2012, when the CDF became concerned about some of his writings relating to the Church and summoned him to Rome, where he was ordered to step down as ACP leader.

 

Months later Flannery was ordered by the CDF to issue a statement saying that he believed women could never be ordained as priests and that he accepted all the moral teachings of the Church. He was then reportedly suspended from ministry and threatened with excommunication.

 

In his new book, to underscore how destabilizing the CDF found his statements, Flannery has published all the documentation from the CDF regarding his case.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Alan McDougall

[John Cuthber]

I mentioned the Catholic church specifically in relation to their (relatively recent) view on priests getting married.

Other churches have married clergy, and comparable problems of abuse.

[swansont]

Flannery is a person, not a scientific study. It's conjecture, and ignores the counterexamples that have been presented.

[Alan McDougall]

I mentioned the Catholic church specifically in relation to their (relatively recent) view on priests getting married.

Other churches have married clergy, and comparable problems of abuse.

 

I know that, that is why I used "Churches" in the title of the thread, maybe I should have used organizations or something like that, but that would not alter the debate.

[pears]

Peadophilia is not a symptom of being single. I think peadophiles target roles of power and trust to get themselves into situations where abuse is possible. This is why institutions such as churches, children's homes, hospitals, schools etc have all found themselves at the centre of abuse scandals.

[john5746]

Peadophilia is not a symptom of being single. I think peadophiles target roles of power and trust to get themselves into situations where abuse is possible. This is why institutions such as churches, children's homes, hospitals, schools etc have all found themselves at the centre of abuse scandals.

I have assumed this is the case as well - that the ped's were attracted to the church, not created by it. But a place where you are expected not to have a sexual relationship with an adult(meaning anybody for most people) would seem to add extra cover IMO.

Edited January 15, 2014 by john5746

[zapatos]

I have assumed this is the case as well - that the ped's were attracted to the church, not created by it. But a place where you are expected not to have a sexual relationship with an adult(meaning anybody for most people) would seem to add extra cover IMO.

 

I don't think pedophiles are necessarily attracted to the church. From what I can find the church has a similar ratio of child molesters to that of the general population. I think there is just more focus on the church due to the fact that they are a church, and that the church conducted a cover up.

 

 

In the United States the 2004 John Jay Report commissioned and funded by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) was based on volunteer surveys completed by the Roman Catholic dioceses in the United States. The 2004 John Jay Report was based on a study of 10,667 allegations against 4,392 priests accused of engaging in sexual abuse of a minor between 1950 and 2002.

 

The 4,392 priests who were accused amount to approximately 4% of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

 

 

The prevalence of pedophilia in the general population is not known, but is estimated to be lower than 5% among adult men

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

[Alan McDougall]

Peadophilia is not a symptom of being single. I think peadophiles target roles of power and trust to get themselves into situations where abuse is possible. This is why institutions such as churches, children's homes, hospitals, schools etc have all found themselves at the centre of abuse scandals.

 

I agree institutions, would have been the right word in the title instead of what I used "Churches"

[imatfaal]

"Churches" Depravity

 

The reason why I used the word 'Churches" is that abuse is not confined to one Church denomination but happens in many , thus it is a generalizing phrase

 

The 2600-page report by Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse found

Rape was endemic in more than 250 Irish-"Churches" care institutions from the 1930s to the 1990s, and the "Churches" protected paedophiles from prosecution. Victims groups say the culture of abuse and cruelty in "Churches"" institutions in Australia last century could have been as shocking as that revealed in a nine-year Irish commission's report.

This adds to the sorry saga of the "Churches" in America where over a billion dollars was paid out to American victims of paedophilia. At the same time Irish Bishop Pat Buckley has confessed that some 500 of his priest’s to-day are having regular sex, wilfully exploiting their power, their status and their position over women. .....

 

 

Not defending the RC Church (I went to a Catholic Boys School and at least 4 of the teachers there have been subsequently charged ao convicted of sexual offences against childredn) - but Patrick Buckley is not a Bishop in the Catholic Church and your post reads as if he was speaking in a official/quasi-official role. He was a Catholic priest but was excommunicated at the end of a process that saw him consecrated as a Bishop in an alternative (?) church - complicated but not a Catholic Bishop and no longer a priest.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Buckley

 

He also said that 40% of the priesthood were gay - there are about 2500 parish priests in Eire. So 1000 are gay, 500 are having sex through exploiting unequal power-relations with women, and I presume there are a fair number having normal consensual sex - not surprising people are calling for the end of the celibacy vow; no one was taking any notice of it.