Why I reject karma and reincarnation, as illogical and nonsensical

[Alan McDougall]

Why I reject karma and reincarnation

I believe the religious idea of Karma and Reincarnation are illogical and nonsensical and l list my objections this belief below.

1) Karma is the belief that a person has to live many lives and improve in each until they become an ascended master and finally lose self-awareness into the mindless soup of the cosmic mind.

2) Alternatively, one chooses ones own next life from the spiritual plane in order to learn something in the next. What the heck did Hitler come to learn?

3) It is claimed by some variants of this illogical belief that one might have to live sometimes millions of lives before becoming perfect to escape the cycle of birth and rebirth and find enlightenment.
to

4) I believe, however, that we only live once and it is during this life, where we learn our lessons or repeat the mistakes until we have overcome them or die it we dont.

5). Karma says that a soul must live many mortal lives to reach perfection. Thus humanity must undergo countless incarnations from bacteria to insect etc, or bad human until one finally becomes an enlightened master.

6) One, nevertheless, must start out as a lowly life form such as a cockroach or garden Lilly and finally, after countless millions of years-repeated rebirths or incarnation to finally progress to become human, but sadly it does not stop there..

7) For the life of me how does a bad cockroach or garden Lilly become a "good cockroach or garden Lilly"?

8) This belief if it where not so tragic would be very funny indeed.

9). Karma says that if we have a weakness or fault in this life, we must return , to earth, be reborn, again and again in order to overcome our failings in the previous life in the present life, or horrors upon horrors maybe revert back into a cockroach again because we extremely bad in a particular life..

10) Therefore, any suffering we have to endure in this life, be it cancer, aids, all other sicknesses poverty, etc, etc "is our own fault" due to the evil or bad things we did in our past life. This is a cruel belief as many saintly people suffer and die in the most horrific manner. What soul would choose to be a Jew in the Second World War and see their beloved's torn from them in the holocaust and consumed in the ovens of Hitler's death camps? This belief also leads to the idea that the suffering of another person is their own fault, earned from a previously evil life, thus we can overlook them, and step over their suffering bodies if they get in our way on a side walk.

11)The above paragraphs show that Karma is nonsense, how can one be so often be punished so terribly for something they do not even remember from a sinful forgotten past life. In my case I have had to endure a part of my life severely ill. Is this the punishment for something I did in past life, of which I have absolutely no recollection?.

12.) Another view favored by spiritualists and modern day channeller's is that between lives we sit in some other dimensions and decide exactly what kind of life we choose be it beggar, rich person or what ever. Therefore, our fate is decided by ourselves, what nonsense.

13). What then about souls like Hitler, Stalin, Nero and the numerous depraved people on earth at the moment, did they deliberately choose a life of depraved evil and what they could learn by there wicked actions? They will degenerate further and further through each life as they are totally depraved without any redeeming good qualities what so ever. Surely, this type of person deserves judgment and punishment, not escape into karma.

14). If we look at the out of control world population we see a increase in the total world population, which is already a frightening 7 billion and growing faster and faster by the day. Where are all these people coming from? If karma is true, surely people should be reaching perfection and escaping the cycle of life and the worlds population decreasing. Not so?

15). Again, if karma where true we should be observing just the reverse. With more and more people becoming better and better and finally reaching enlightenment and escaping the relentless birth and rebirth with a subsequent decrease in the world population.

16) Although people are no more evil now than they were in the past (middle age horrors as an example), they are also no better, if we read our daily newspaper or listen to the news on the electronic media.

17) We just have to read up on the mechanized world wars of the past century and see the awful weapons humanity has developed and continue to develop to kill one another, with more and more sophisticated tools of death, the holocaust being an example of near present day depravity.Where is Karma in all of this?

18). Where are all the enlightened masters? There seems to me so few in these latter days. Please could one name just one living true enlightened master for me?

19) Persons I would call enlightened masters in present times would be mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela and they did definitely not believe in the law of Karma but believed and practiced active love caring and charity nearly all the years of her long life. Forum add others if you want to?

20). If the law of karma is true, why are we still having more and more conflicts and wars all over the planet, instead of peace?

21) What about all this ooh-haa about past life memories some claim to have experienced? I believe that locked up in our genes and encoded within the colossal D.N.A. molecule racial memories could be stored. Perhaps these ghosts of memories could perhaps leak into the conscious mind of some people who then believe they are remembering past lives.

22) Another fact that, has been proven, is that forgotten childhood memories that are remembered in the case of trauma or under hypnoses ad mistaken as a memory of a previous life.

23). My personal search for an explanation has shown not one indisputable past life memory in anyone. All could be explained rationally.

24.) My own personal view on Karma and past life regression is that I hope this awful concept is not true. Who wants to live earthly mortal repeatedly, go to school again, get sick, fight in a war, die in a terrible way, watch those you love die again?

25) Anyway, 99.99991 of people just like me have no memories of past lives, and I believe those that say they have memories are either deluded or lying.

26) In addition, if I lived in the past and have no recollection of that life, the person I was then is truly dead.

27.) I believe I exist now because years ago my beloved parents decided (Not me) to make love. I am sure I did not choose this life and am positive it is the only life I have ever had. What comes after, if anything remains an enigma to me and to everyone else on earth?

28.) I therefore reject the concept of karma as a potentially cruel false belief and nonsense to any logically rationally thinking person.

Alan McDougall

 

©Copyright Alan Grant McDougall 2013

 

[Lightmeow]

1)Nothing to argue there

 

2)Hitler could of failed his life lesson. Then he could of devolved. Who knows, maybe for the next 1000 years he is doomed to be trees that gets cut down over and over again. Or maybe he was the one who was putting something greater into motion, and there was a master plan up on the spiritual plane.

 

 

3)Whats so illogical about that? I feel like you just enjoy bashing something without an argument.

 

4)With your belief, then whats the point of living. What good is all of those lessons you learned in this one life, just to die, and it be gone.

 

7)Think outside of the box. What you are saying is that humans are the only intelligent life form that may have lessons. Maybe when you are a cockroach you are learning how to survive. You are a good cockroach if you manage not to be stepped on, and a bad one if you get killed. Same with the Lilly...

 

8)How is it Tragic?

 

9)So Hitler again becomes a cockroach. Anyways, we all have our faults. I bet you haven't done everything you can to make this world a better place.

 

10)Could be karma. Could be that in a screwed up way they all were learning a big lesson.

 

11)If you knew Hitler did this, do you hope the same thing happens to him... If we are talking about thousands of incarnations, we could say that the Jews could of been incarnations of the Vikings, Romans, that killed many people.

 

12)So is this an excuse to not take responsibility for your life? Say what has happened to me is everybody's fault but mine?

 

13)It's not an escape. When Hitler was a baby, do you think his mom looked him in his eyes and saw that he was going to be this evil man. No, he made some decisions that weren't good when he got older. That doesn't disprove the path that we set before we are born. He didn't stick to his path. He was weak and took the easy way.

 

14)Well, I believe that if animals had souls, then they are evolving into humans. Even if plants had a conscious, then they are evolving.

 

15)Energy is always changing. We should bring in the String Theory Extra Dimensions, plus the Universe, as far as we know it, is infinite. Also, everything is being recycled, and just think and don't be closed minded.

 

16)People could be being kicked down, and then rising, then kicked down...

 

18)Edgar Cayce

 

20)More and more people.

 

21)Give me proof that DNA isn't DNA, and carrys other stuff other than DNA.

 

22)And there's always people that also make up this stuff. Besides the point...

 

23-26) Do you know how confused and over whelmed you would be if you remembered all of your millions of past incarnations? Also, how hard would life be if you knew your life lessons. There would be no reason to live. Life is about experimenting until you figure out your life lessons.

 

27)Then whats the point of living. Why are we born, to live lessons, then we die, and there's nothing to show for it.

 

28)I say that anything that I don't believe is a potentially cruel false belief and nonsense to any logically rationally thinking person.

 

I think we are all different. That's what makes this world interesting. Just because I don't conform to the masses

belief system doesn't mean that I am wrong. I could, if I was bored, debunk science, any religion, because everything isn't complete, and everything has holes in it. Just Saying

 

Regards,

Joshua

 

You should change your Copyright

Edited January 19, 2014 by Lightmeow

[dimreepr]

I take solace in the idea of karma, in terms of ‘what goes around comes around’ which has, for me, been proven time and time again; so when somebody takes advantage of my forgiving nature I find myself amused, rather than angry or outraged; so I guess it depends on how you define karma. As for reincarnation, other than the fact that our atoms are replaced entirely every 2/3 years, I too think its bunk.

[Alan McDougall]

I take solace in the idea of karma, in terms of ‘what goes around comes around’ which has, for me, been proven time and time again; so when somebody takes advantage of my forgiving nature I find myself amused, rather than angry or outraged; so I guess it depends on how you define karma. As for reincarnation, other than the fact that our atoms are replaced entirely every 2/3 years, I too think its bunk.

 

None of what you say is true and none of it has been proven time and time again!

 

 

Why I reject karma and reincarnation

I believe the religious idea of Karma and Reincarnation are illogical and nonsensical and l list my objections this belief below.

1) Karma is the belief that a person has to live many lives and improve in each until they become an ascended master and finally lose self-awareness into the mindless soup of the cosmic mind.

 

2) Alternatively, one chooses ones own next life from the spiritual plane in order to learn something in the next. What the heck did Hitler come to learn?

Hitler failed his life lesson. Alternatively, he was the catylist for World War 2, and Japan loosing their emperor, and started America on it's quest to turn every country into a democracy.

 

3) It is claimed by some variants of this illogical belief that one might have to live sometimes millions of lives before becoming perfect to escape the cycle of birth and rebirth and find enlightenment.

You could have been a fly for many lives, living 20 days before dying. Then evolved. How is this illogical? On the contrary, it supports Darwin's theory of evolution quite will.

 

4) I believe, however, that we only live once and it is during this life, where we learn our lessons or repeat the mistakes until we have overcome them or die it we dont.

How can we live once? Energy cannot be created or destroyed. If you believe in heaven, then were does all of the energy come from to make all of the new "souls"(if you believe in souls).

 

5). Karma says that a soul must live many mortal lives to reach perfection. Thus humanity must undergo countless incarnations from bacteria to insect etc, or bad human until one finally becomes an enlightened master.

 

6) One, nevertheless, must start out as a lowly life form such as a cockroach or garden Lilly and finally, after countless millions of years-repeated rebirths or incarnation to finally progress to become human, but sadly it does not stop there..

 

7) For the life of me how does a bad cockroach or garden Lilly become a "good cockroach or garden Lilly"?

Think outside of the box, from the animals perspective. You just don't want to think

 

8) This belief if it where not so tragic would be very funny indeed.

How is it tragic?

9). Karma says that if we have a weakness or fault in this life, we must return , to earth, be reborn, again and again in order to overcome our failings in the previous life in the present life, or horrors upon horrors maybe revert back into a cockroach again because we extremely bad in a particular life..

See point about Hitler... Also, what failures have you been through? I bet that you haven't done EVERYTHING in you power to make the earth a better place.

10) Therefore, any suffering we have to endure in this life, be it cancer, aids, all other sicknesses poverty, etc, etc "is our own fault" due to the evil or bad things we did in our past life. This is a cruel belief as many saintly people suffer and die in the most horrific manner. What soul would choose to be a Jew in the Second World War and see their beloved's torn from them in the holocaust and consumed in the ovens of Hitler's death camps? This belief also leads to the idea that the suffering of another person is their own fault, earned from a previously evil life, thus we can overlook them, and step over their suffering bodies if they get in our way on a side walk.

They all had their lessons. Maybe that was their karma for being evil in a past life.

 

11)The above paragraphs show that Karma is nonsense, how can one be so often be punished so terribly for something they do not even remember from a sinful forgotten past life. In my case I have had to endure a part of my life severely ill. Is this the punishment for something I did in past life, of which I have absolutely no recollection?.

How confused would you be if you remembered all of your hundreds of thousands of carnations. Also, why would life be worth living if you knew what all of your life lessons, and didn't have to think.

 

12.) Another view favored by spiritualists and modern day channeller's is that between lives we sit in some other dimensions and decide exactly what kind of life we choose be it beggar, rich person or what ever. Therefore, our fate is decided by ourselves, what nonsense.

How is that nonsense? We choose what lesson to learn that life. Anyone who says that you know exactly how your life is going to turn out is stupid, but there is probably one big thing that you have to work out.

13). What then about souls like Hitler, Stalin, Nero and the numerous depraved people on earth at the moment, did they deliberately choose a life of depraved evil and what they could learn by there wicked actions? They will degenerate further and further through each life as they are totally depraved without any redeeming good qualities what so ever. Surely, this type of person deserves judgment and punishment, not escape into karma.

They didn't learn their lesson. When you are born, you are ignorant. Are you saying that Hitler, when he was born, knew he was going to be evil. He had some chooses, took the wrong one, and look what happened.

14). If we look at the out of control world population we see a increase in the total world population, which is already a frightening 7 billion and growing faster and faster by the day. Where are all these people coming from? If karma is true, surely people should be reaching perfection and escaping the cycle of life and the worlds population decreasing. Not so?

No... Energy cannot be created or destroyed. You are saying that there is a finite amount of souls.

 

15). Again, if karma where true we should be observing just the reverse. With more and more people becoming better and better and finally reaching enlightenment and escaping the relentless birth and rebirth with a subsequent decrease in the world population.

May I say that the amount of trees and animals dying out could have an effect on the increase of world population?

16) Although people are no more evil now than they were in the past (middle age horrors as an example), they are also no better, if we read our daily newspaper or listen to the news on the electronic media.

So what...

 

17) We just have to read up on the mechanized world wars of the past century and see the awful weapons humanity has developed and continue to develop to kill one another, with more and more sophisticated tools of death, the holocaust being an example of near present day depravity.Where is Karma in all of this?

Read above points

18). Where are all the enlightened masters? There seems to me so few in these latter days. Please could one name just one living true enlightened master for me?

Enlightened masters are the good people. I'd say Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi , and all of the other people who made a huge difference.

19) Persons I would call enlightened masters in present times would be mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela and they did definitely not believe in the law of Karma but believed and practiced active love caring and charity nearly all the years of her long life. Forum add others if you want to?

So you just stated some, so why did you say the above.

20). If the law of karma is true, why are we still having more and more conflicts and wars all over the planet, instead of peace?

Read point 15. There are still young souls on this earth

21) What about all this ooh-haa about past life memories some claim to have experienced? I believe that locked up in our genes and encoded within the colossal D.N.A. molecule racial memories could be stored. Perhaps these ghosts of memories could perhaps leak into the conscious mind of some people who then believe they are remembering past lives.

I don't think memories have ANYTHING to do with genes. You should read up on your science.

22) Another fact that, has been proven, is that forgotten childhood memories that are remembered in the case of trauma or under hypnoses ad mistaken as a memory of a previous life.

Theres always the what if's. For all we know, the people could be making it up. Along with the Bible and everything else.

 

23). My personal search for an explanation has shown not one indisputable past life memory in anyone. All could be explained rationally.

This isn't going anywhere.

24.) My own personal view on Karma and past life regression is that I hope this awful concept is not true. Who wants to live earthly mortal repeatedly, go to school again, get sick, fight in a war, die in a terrible way, watch those you love die again?

I think the Christian view of hell is pretty bad too.

25) Anyway, 99.99991 of people just like me have no memories of past lives, and I believe those that say they have memories are either deluded or lying.

....

 

26) In addition, if I lived in the past and have no recollection of that life, the person I was then is truly dead.

If you can play with words that way, then yes.

27.) I believe I exist now because years ago my beloved parents decided (Not me) to make love. I am sure I did not choose this life and am positive it is the only life I have ever had. What comes after, if anything remains an enigma to me and to everyone else on earth?

Yes... This is were we get into cloning, and everything else. Does the person who is cloned still have a soul?

28.) I therefore reject the concept of karma as a potentially cruel false belief and nonsense to any logically rationally thinking person.

Humans have something called faith, or whatever. I will reject your heaven,as you reject my reincarnation. Thus, life is a lot more interesting.

 

Joshua

 

 

Cant you do a better job of debating, why do you mix up your statement with mine, it is confusing, put your comments below my statements , not inside them?

[dimreepr]

“None of what you say is true and none of it has been proven time and time again!”

Says who? It certainly is true for me and, for instance, the rich man who is ever fearful of becoming poor.

[Lightmeow]

I edited my post

 

 

I take solace in the idea of karma, in terms of ‘what goes around comes around’ which has, for me, been proven time and time again; so when somebody takes advantage of my forgiving nature I find myself amused, rather than angry or outraged; so I guess it depends on how you define karma. As for reincarnation, other than the fact that our atoms are replaced entirely every 2/3 years, I too think its bunk.

Reincarnation is about energy, not about the material. Of course, reincarnation would be false if you expect that you will use the same body every life!!!

[John Cuthber]

I edited my post

 

 

Reincarnation is about energy, not about the material. Of course, reincarnation would be false if you expect that you will use the same body every life!!!

This is a science website and so energy is the capacity to do work.

What inappropriate definition were you hoping to use?

[Endy0816]

Reincarnation is more of a matter of faith than anything else.

 

There is something cathartic about the idea of karmic justice. I'm sure the reality just relates to underlying traits but as far as an encapsulating term goes it works.

[Marshalscienceguy]

Karma exists and its not a magical thing. If you are rude to everyone you meet eventually people are going to be rude back even the most polite person in the world. How you act gives you a reputation and if your reputation is bad or good id dependent on your behaviour. If you bully that nerd in school and later have to beg them for a job and they remember you they have the means you screw you over. If you are working with equipment that is dangerous and do not follow procedure, do not lock it, do not tie it up, do not put it away correctly you may end up getting yourself or others hurt. If you hurt yourself you are in pain or you die, if you hurt others you might get sued. So that is karma. Karma says what comes around goes around. If you are stupid, irresponsible and rude it will catch up with you. So be a good person before it does. You think those Celebrities that are getting Tickets and partying are not going to pay for it later? It might shorten the life span, get them in an accident and much much worse. Religion says you will suffer it in the after life but its not like your idiocy does not have bad effects here.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Marshalscienceguy

[Alan McDougall]

Karma exists and its not a magical thing. If you are rude to everyone you meet eventually people are going to be rude back even the most polite person in the world. How you act gives you a reputation and if your reputation is bad or good id dependent on your behaviour. If you bully that nerd in school and later have to beg them for a job and they remember you they have the means you screw you over. If you are working with equipment that is dangerous and do not follow procedure, do not lock it, do not tie it up, do not put it away correctly you may end up getting yourself or others hurt. If you hurt yourself you are in pain or you die, if you hurt others you might get sued. So that is karma. Karma says what comes around goes around. If you are stupid, irresponsible and rude it will catch up with you. So be a good person before it does. You think those Celebrities that are getting Tickets and partying are not going to pay for it later? It might shorten the life span, get them in an accident and much much worse. Religion says you will suffer it in the after life but its not like your idiocy does not have bad effects here.

 

That sort of thing does seem to happen in this like, sort of leaning by your mistakes, but it is not karmic justice and has nothing to do with reincarnation.

[Lightmeow]

This is a science website and so energy is the capacity to do work.

What inappropriate definition were you hoping to use?

 

The soul can do work, because it is what drives our conscience. And then food powers our body. Unless you are one of those scientists that believe that we are just here...

 

I find it amusing we have a religion section on a science forum. I don't think scientists are going to get anywhere discussing it.

 

That sort of thing does seem to happen in this like, sort of leaning by your mistakes, but it is not karmic justice and has nothing to do with reincarnation.

 

Then what do you call it. Karma is an abstract concept that most religions have adopted in one way or another, renaming it along the way, but it's still karma. I believe Christians call it going to hell?

[tar]

Lightmeow,

 

I think you have it a little backward. It is not that scientists can not get anywhere discussing it, it is that you can not get anywhere not discussing it scientifically.

 

For instance, consider the difference between simile, metaphor and actual identity.

 

Scientist have found, through careful study, experimentation and logic, that correlation does not mean causation.

 

It is one thing to say something is like something else.

It is another thing to say something is something else, as a partial comparison of some of the things characteristics with another different things characteristics.

And a third thing entirely to state that something is truely something else, based on either simile or metaphor.

 

What you can put together in your mind does not have to follow the consequencial rules of the outside world.

A monk reaching nirvana, does not get physically absorbed into the soul of the universe. He thinks he has joined up...but nothing of the sort actually happens. Nothing that can be experienced and measured and understood as actually happening, by an outside party. or observer.

 

Regards, TAR2

[Alan McDougall]

I edited my post

 

 

Reincarnation is about energy, not about the material. Of course, reincarnation would be false if you expect that you will use the same body every life!!!

 

Reincarnation is false, entropy is a one way street.

Lightmeow,

 

I think you have it a little backward. It is not that scientists can not get anywhere discussing it, it is that you can not get anywhere not discussing it scientifically.

 

For instance, consider the difference between simile, metaphor and actual identity.

 

Scientist have found, through careful study, experimentation and logic, that correlation does not mean causation.

 

It is one thing to say something is like something else.

It is another thing to say something is something else, as a partial comparison of some of the things characteristics with another different things characteristics.

And a third thing entirely to state that something is truely something else, based on either simile or metaphor.

 

What you can put together in your mind does not have to follow the consequencial rules of the outside world.

A monk reaching nirvana, does not get physically absorbed into the soul of the universe. He thinks he has joined up...but nothing of the sort actually happens. Nothing that can be experienced and measured and understood as actually happening, by an outside party. or observer.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

Lightmeow,

 

I think you have it a little backward. It is not that scientists can not get anywhere discussing it, it is that you can not get anywhere not discussing it scientifically.

 

For instance, consider the difference between simile, metaphor and actual identity.

 

Scientist have found, through careful study, experimentation and logic, that correlation does not mean causation.

 

It is one thing to say something is like something else.

It is another thing to say something is something else, as a partial comparison of some of the things characteristics with another different things characteristics.

And a third thing entirely to state that something is truely something else, based on either simile or metaphor.

 

What you can put together in your mind does not have to follow the consequencial rules of the outside world.

A monk reaching nirvana, does not get physically absorbed into the soul of the universe. He thinks he has joined up...but nothing of the sort actually happens. Nothing that can be experienced and measured and understood as actually happening, by an outside party. or observer.

 

Regards, TAR2

 

Well said!

http://everythingelseatheism.blogspot.com/2009/02/problems-with-reincarnation.html The Problems With Reincarnation

So I've been wanting to debunk reincarnation for awhile, especially after one of my housemates admitted to me that she believed in it. There's so many things wrong with reincarnation that I feel it's one of the more puzzling beliefs out there.

 

First of all, to accept reincarnation, you have to accept dualism. After all, it is the soul that survives and merely changes bodies when the current host dies. I've already done two whole posts on all the problems with dualism. If there is no soul, then there can be no reincarnation. I am reminded of the Ship of Theseus paradox in which a ship's parts are slowly but completely replaced; is it a new ship or the old ship? However, in this example, a wooden fence is build on the opposite side of the globe at the same time that a wooden ship has rotted, and with reincarnation the new fence is the dead ship. Returning to living creatures, reincarnation claims that a new baby that doesn't have the same biological materials, don't have any of the same memories, doesn't have any sort of viable link to an old lady recently deceased from a heart attack, is indeed that old lady. It's patently absurd.

 

But let's assume that the soul does exist and inhabits a new body when the old one dies. Why does the soul forget its past experiences? What would make the soul's memories stop when the old body dies? Why would the self - the presumed soul - not be able to remember? Is the soul not the ultimate self? Why would a new body limit the self's ability to conjure its own memories? And for those who claim that déjà-vu or whatever is repressed past memories, I might ask what the mechanism is for memories to be blocked or let through. If they are blocked, how are they getting through? Why can't they all get through?

 

And if your old memories are lost forever, then what is the point of being reincarnated? The point of reincarnation is to extend life, but if you can't retain memories or lessons or knowledge from those past lives, how exactly have you extended your life? It's not much better than saying you achieve immortality by living on in the hearts and minds of your friends. I want to live forever by living forever. I don't want some memory or trace of me living on.

 

Now for the practical problems of reincarnation. (We'll just deal with humans for right now). Where were all the souls before the earth existed? Where will they go when the earth is destroyed? Will they continue to exist and be sentient, to interact in soul-land? Then why come into bodies at all? And then what if the ratio of bodies-to-souls is off, say more souls than bodies? Do the souls just hang out in soul-land waiting for a new body to inhabit? Or what if there are more bodies than souls? Are new souls born? Or are there some people who are just automatons - functioning robots without souls at all? Could we tell the automatons apart from the real people?

 

Now let's deal with animals, if you accept trans-special reincarnation. Clearly some animals have different sorts of mental functioning abilities. We can reason better, rats can discern smells better, bats can hear better. Different animals can see in different colors, very much a mental process of the mind. How does the soul make up for these things? When we get transferred to a chicken, do we lose our ability to reason? When we are transferred out of a wolf, do we lose the knowledge of how to hunt? Are our souls restricted in what they can express on their host? And then of course, what's the cutoff point of creatures imbued with souls? Do rats have souls? Bees? Roaches? Bacteria? Viruses? Replicating proteins like Mad Cow? Even if you restrict reincarnation to just humans; at what point in the human evolutionary chain was the first soul imbued?

 

Now how about the idea that the creature you get to inhabit depends on how good you were in your past life. Who keeps track? Who is the great record-keeper that sends you to your new body? What criteria is used? Is it objective - could it be objective? Does it make mistakes? How does it force our souls into the hosts? Could the soul refuse? And you have to wonder; is your fate graded on a curve? What if everyone in one generation acts perfectly and kindly and loving to everyone? Surely the less desirable bodies are still being born and need to be inhabited. Would a couple of hugs be the difference between a hawk and a slug?

 

Nice questions I like them Alan

Edited January 20, 2014 by Alan McDougall

[wisejanesm]

It is possible that there is no reincarnation.

But the transition to another dimension after death is possible.

[Phi for All]

I like the idea of karma, but I don't think it's anything mystical. I think it's just human confirmation bias. If you're looking for karmic justice, you're going to see instances of it in the randomness of your life as a pattern.

 

I don't know how many cars have cut me off in traffic in my life, but I certainly remember one time because of alleged karmic justice. The guy cuts me off unnecessarily, so I pulled up next to him and gave him my best glare. Suddenly his car backfires, smoke starts pouring out and he has to pull off the highway. Karma-1, jerk-0.

 

But I know I was looking for that pattern, that I wanted something retributive to happen to this perpetrator of foul deeds. I don't remember all the times I didn't get to see the pattern happen, but when it does you become convinced there's something more behind it. There isn't, it's just our amazing ability to find patterns in everything, even when they don't mean anything.

[barfbag]

@ OP,

 

I cannot see much difference between points, 1,3,5,6,9... A reread and edit might have stopped you repeating the same content.

 

Let's pretend reincarnation is a possibility.

 

- Maybe god wants to experience everything from Margaritas to Jet Skiing, and we are all a part of god.

 

- Maybe your soul is not separate but simply a piece of god.then there could be 100 billion.

 

- There cannot be recognizable good without evil so Hitlers must be allowed to exist if an interesting world is to exist.

 

- OP suggested we would be truly dead if we cannot recall our past lives, but that would be assuming time governed this imagined spirit world. What if time did not really exist? How do we know how long a lifetime is to these spirits (if true).

 

I don't know whether such things are possible, but the reasons you give in the OP do not seem like the best reasons to dump on the notion.

 

Why not try............

 

The first adverse argument usually presented is that the advocates of Reincarnation have not established the existence of a "soul" which may reincarnate; nor have they proven its nature, if it does exist.

[radicalsymmetry]

 

©Copyright Alan Grant McDougall 2013

 

 

 

What proof do you have that this sense of identity should or will cease at any point in the future ?

 

That would be a presumption, a belief, a guess, an unfounded speculation, wouldn't it? ...and one which you cannot in anyway prove in fact whatsoever.

 

Good day.

Edited July 20, 2014 by radicalsymmetry

[barfbag]

What proof do you have that this sense of identity should or will cease at any point in the future ?

 

 

He is rejecting the belief because it does not fit his logic. Proof either way does not matter. I agree both possibilities exist and neither is proven, but proof is not really required on this religion thread because it aims at belief.

[radicalsymmetry]

First of all, to accept reincarnation, you have to accept dualism. After all, it is the soul that survives and merely changes bodies when the current host dies. I've already done two whole posts on all the problems with dualism. If there is no soul, then there can be no reincarnation

 

Alan

 

 

If you feel qualified to speculate about whether there might or might not be reincarnation, perhaps you’d presently like to explain what exactly is meant by a "soul" ?

Edited July 20, 2014 by radicalsymmetry

[PeterJ]

I think if we want to argue against an idea we have to define it in the same way that the people who promote it. The opening list of features is all over the place. There would be no person, no soul, no ego travelling from life to life, and karma is about rebirth, not reincarnation. It is a more subtle and defensible idea than the bowdlerised idea presented here.

 

There may well be good objections that are possible, but these objections would not touch on the most common form of these doctrines so are rather toothless. .

[harshgoel1975]

Why I accept karma as much clean way rather than shoe polish of God

because I get what I do

 

 

Why I reject karma and reincarnation

1) Karma is the belief that a person has to live many lives and improve in each until they become an ascended master and finally lose self-awareness into the mindless soup of the cosmic mind.

 

 

 

Wrong conception...right is Karma is the belief that "you get what you do .... results are because of your doings "... good or bad ....doesn't matter how hard you worship GOD,,, but if you do untruthful thing...bad deeds.. you will get bad results... like if you sow a seed of apple.. you will get apples .. and not bananas........

 

2) Alternatively, one chooses ones own next life from the spiritual plane in order to learn something in the next. What the heck did Hitler come to learn?

 

one can't choose next life...noway...you have chance to act right in this birth....next birth ( if occur ) will be based on acts done in previous birth....

 

 

3) It is claimed by some variants of this illogical belief that one might have to live sometimes millions of lives before becoming perfect to escape the cycle of birth and rebirth and find enlightenment.
to

 

 

here you are mixing two different theory again....Karma is what you do is what you get....you can escape birth and life cycle..in single birth....

 

 

I can answer all these question..... but seems no point... as science as no relevance here....

 

nevertheless.... Karma ...gives a better GOD free world.. where a I become the proactive for my deeds and no need to go to any church to shoe polish any GOD... rather just doing the things right .... "Satymev jayte".... means truth and only truth prevails and wins... this is karma theory... rather the show polish of god prevails....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[harshgoel1975]

other different thoughts .......may be a different analogous model......( i have no scientific proof of it ) but just to answer all you question is to consider... soul as highest purest form energy....

 

1. Energy cannot be created or destroyed...but changes form.... and so is soul...theory of incarnation

2. Energy used in productive manner produce positive results and used in destructive manner .. produce... destruction.... Law of karma....

3. Energy cannot be used in pure form... so we need to give it a carrier.... this is why everything exist.... this is why GOD needs to be represented

4. for different use.. different form of Energy carrier is used ... that why there are so many type of GOD

 

and so on and so forth....

.

[PeterJ]

I would agree with your comments on on karma, harshgoel1975. Interesting thoughts about energy. Would it be correct to say that energy requires imbalance?

[harshgoel1975]

I would agree with your comments on on karma, harshgoel1975. Interesting thoughts about energy. Would it be correct to say that energy requires imbalance?

 

Thanks Peter, life is so beautiful and cosmos is so big and rich that all living being can survive without any conflict.. only mutual respect is needed...... back to your query...

 

with my limited knowledge...imbalance is required to persist... perfect balance cannot exist....there is a delta correction needed and this delta correction accumulated over period... .. all system are some kind of pendulum kind of setup.. where.. one kind of energy form change to another...looks everything in balance... but there is delta change with every swing.... this model is of limited use .. we have to extend this to multiple pendulum ( not swing type but models where multiple such systems coexist may be beyond our imagination ) so energy ( hyper thesis begin here :) doesn't require a balance or imbalance but its carrier always wear and tear out causes imbalance.... hope I tried answer to some extent... ( these are my thoughts only I have really no proof .. ).....

[PeterJ]

Okay. It was a technical question really. I wondered whether imbalance, non-equilibrium, is required for the scientific idea of energy. I assume so, but was checking.