Is Islam really the religion of peace their followers claim it to be?

[chadn737]

Let's face it, Alan has lost the argument.

Among other things, he lost it when he said "Bin Laden was most definitely a Muslim"

There's genuine debate about that.

 

And, since Islam follows largely the same scriptures as Christianity, whatever you say about one group can be said about the other.

 

I'm not ( as Alan seeks to assert) some sort of authority on the scriptures.

It's just that I have access to the internet, and a search engine finds stuff for me.

This is not some arcane understanding or deep truth, it's just reading the words.

 

 

That's still not as funny as claiming that the Roman Catholic Church is "a tiny segment of the Christian community".

I'm going to be giggling about that one for a while.

 

The reason why it is questionable whether or not Hitler was a Catholic, let alone a Christian, is because there is written record, along with eye-witness testimony of his aims, words, and actions behind closed doors. Hitler was a politician and there is nothing new about a politician lying about his beliefs for political ends. Does anybody actually believe that Obama truly was against gay marriage when he said "I am not in favor of gay marriage" (2008 MTV interview)? Of course not, he used that for political ends. That is politics. Hitler certainly was not an "atheist", but based on the records of his goals behind the scenes, it is clear he was very clearly against the Catholic and even Protestant Churches. Most of his right hand men, including those most directly involved with the holocaust were anti-Christian...even if they were not atheist. Himmler seemed to be some sort of weird neo-pagan.

 

But Osama bin laden not a Muslim? I think there is clearly debate that his views of Islam were twisted and out of line with scripture, but I don't think that necessarily makes him non-Muslim, as there is no indication that he was anti-Muslim....on the contrary, everything he did was in the name of Islam. I think its entirely two different issues, whether or not somebody truly believes something and whether or not their beliefs are an accurate interpretation of something. In one sense, your assertion that he "is not Muslim" reminds me of those Creationists that have called me an atheist for rejecting Creationism. I truly believe in God....I truly believe in Christ, I just disagree with Creationism. Am I not a Christian because I have a different view on one part? Osama may very well have an incorrect interpretation of Islam and his actions therefore would not correctly represent the teachings of Mohammed. Does that make him "non-Muslim"...there can be no doubt he truly believed. In contrast, there is more than enough evidence to question Hitler's believe in Christianity.

 

Secondly, Islam does not largely follow the same scriptures as Christianity. That is just plain wrong. The primary scriptures of Islam are the Koran and the Hadiths. They reject nearly all the Old Testament and the New Testament. Those scriptures play almost no role in Islam. They recognize Christ as a "prophet", but then say that the entire New Testament is corrupted and so they reject it. You should probably study this subject more before making such inaccurate statements.

 

 

The irony here is rather thick - YOU quoted wikipedia in the post DIRECTLY above John's. So it's seemingly OK for you to use it as a source, but no ok for others.

 

Also, as has been cited in this thread already, Hitler repeatedly claimed to be Christian and acting on what he supposedly believed was the will of God in Mein Kampf. It was in personal letters he claimed to be using Christianity as a political tool. So ultimately we have contradictory statements from Hitler as to whether or not he was a Christian, and multiple scholarly works debating whether he was or wasn't. You stating that such a debate is "utterly ridiculous" files against the reality of a complex, contradictory situation and seems to be more about your personal convictions than any actual facts.

 

Ultimately, whether or not Hitler was genuinely acting on what he believed to be the will of God, or whether he merely claimed to be is moot. You and Trumptor are avoiding the crux of the argument and engaging in the No True Scotsman fallacy (i.e. A Christian who does something bad isn't a "real" Christian). If it suits you to claim that the actions of Hitler were evil and therefore un-Christian, a Muslim can claim exactly the same thing regarding the actions of Islamic terrorists, as could a Marxist regarding the actions of Stalin, or a Hindu could claim regarding Abhinav Bharat, etc and so on.

 

Ergo, if it's OK for you to claim that the actions of Hitler (or the Crusades, Inquisitions, etc) don't characterize Christianity because they contradict YOUR interpretation of Christian teachings, then it validates the argument for ANY other ideological group.

 

The actions of an individual claiming a certain ideology cannot be used to characterize an ideology - especially with regards to religious ideologies which have multiple interpretations.

 

In the case of Hitler its not a simple case of the No True Scotsman fallacy. If we were talking about Torquemada (basically initiated the Spanish Inquisition), then yes, I think we could not sit here and say that Torquemada was not a Christian. Torquemada truly believed in Christianity...at least as far as we know...even though he committed heinous acts that do not align with Christ's teachings.

 

But with Hitler, we have evidence of his non-public views of Christianity. Always keep in mind that Hitler was first and foremost a politician and if you believe that politicians always speak the truth in public, then you have bigger problems. However, we have records of Hitler's aims, words, and actions behind closed doors. We have the words of those closest to him. These records of his non-public views overtly suggest that Hitler was no Christian and actually saw the Christian Church, both Catholic and non as a threat to his power and something to be subverted and eventually persecuted. When you have evidence like that, its no longer a "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Its a legitimate claim that Hitler was not a Christian. You can't ignore that fact. You have no reason to believe that I am not a Christian, but if you later found a journal written by me or a close confident which said that I really thought it was bogus and should be eliminated, then you would have evidence suggesting was not a Christian. We have an abundance of such evidence with Hitler, including formerly secret Nazi documents that planned a long term elimination of the Christian faith after the war. The fact that they did not do this earlier was simply because of the power of Christianity and the fact that they were in the middle of a war.

Edited February 23, 2014 by chadn737

[Arete]

In the case of Hitler its not a simple case of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

 

 

The two posters I explicitly cited used the depravity and evilness of Hitler's actions to evidence the fact he wasn't a Christian - that's no true Scotsman. You, on the other hand brought up the fact that Hitler derided Christianity in private letters - which is, as you point out not a no true Scotsman fallacy and why I specifically ascribed the fallacy to posters who were not you.

 

In any case, as I also stated it's something of a moot point. Whether or not an individual is genuine in their claims of motivation doesn't determine whether or not you can use them to ascribe qualities to the religion that are specific to the individual - which I think we agree upon.

[John Cuthber]

Nope. Islam does not follow the same scriptures as Christianity. Not even close.

 

Muhammad frequently quoted some parts of the Bible but rejected others as corrupted.

 

And besides the Quran (a badly written compilation of several religious books) there are also other sources such as ahadith and biographies of Muhammad (sira) which are equally or even more important than the Quran. What shocked me while reading them is the sharp contrast between Muhammad and other religious figures. Muhammad and his companions used to raid unprepared and unarmed civilians, killing their men and enslaving their women and then sit in prayer right after doing such heinous acts. Considering that at least in theory 1.5 bln people consider this psychopath as their highest authority and try to be like him, the fact that so many people want to detonate bombs and slit throats precisely in his name shouldn't be a surprise.

A good fraction of the people mentioned in the Quran are mentioned in the Bible too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_persons_in_both_the_Bible_and_the_Qur%27an

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_persons_mentioned_by_name_in_the_Qur%27an

The stories of, for example, the creation are pretty similar.

 

I pointed out that Hitler may have lied, not just about his faith, but about other things too.

He's dead.

We can't check.

Who cares?

He, in at least some ways, was backed up by the Pope at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler's_Pope

 

Am I now going to see an argument break out about whether or not the Pope was Catholic?

[Alan McDougall]

Perhaps we should compare the words of these two religious founders.

 

The Beatitudes of Christ Jesus

 

Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to Him, ²and He began to teach them, saying:

³Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

⁴Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

⁵Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

⁶Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness,

for they will be filled.

⁷Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.

⁸Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

⁹Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God.

¹⁰Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

¹¹Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. ¹²Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who
disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads
and strike off every fingertip of them."
"Allah" (Qur'an 8:12)

"Fight everyone in the way of Allah and
kill those who disbelieve in Allah."
Muhammad (Ibn Ishaq 992)

"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
Jesus (Matthew 5:14)

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Jesus-Muhammad.htm

 

Differences Between Muhammad and Jesus

Muhammad/Red Font.

Jesus/Blue font

Said Allah hates those who don't accept Islam.
(Qur'an 30:45, 3:32, 22:38)

Said God loves everyone.
(John 3:16)

"I have been commanded to fight
against people till they testify that there
is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad
is the messenger of Allah"
(Muslim 1:33)

"He who lives by the sword
will die by the sword."
(Matthew 26:52)

Stoned women for adultery.
(Muslim 4206)

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
(John 8:7)

Permitted stealing from unbelievers.
(Bukhari 44:668, Ibn Ishaq 764)

"Thou shalt not steal."
(Matthew 19:18)

Permitted lying.
(Sahih Muslim 6303, Bukhari 49:857)

"Thou shalt not bear false witness."
(Matthew 19:18)

Owned and traded slaves.
(Sahih Muslim 3901)

Neither owned nor traded slaves.

Beheaded 800 Jewish men and boys.
(Sahih Muslim 4390)

Beheaded no one.

Murdered those who insulted him.
(Bukhari 56:369, 4:241)

Preached forgiveness.
(Matthew 18:21-22, 5:38)

"If then anyone transgresses
the prohibition against you,
Transgress ye likewise against him"
(Qur'an 2:194)

"If someone strikes you on the right
cheek, turn to him the other also."
(Matthew 5:39)

Jihad in the way of Allah elevates one's position in Paradise by a hundred fold.
(Muslim 4645)

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for
they will be called Sons of God"
(Matthew 5:9)

Married 13 wives and kept sex slaves.
(Bukhari 5:268, Qur'an 33:50)

Was celibate.

Slept with a 9-year-old child.
(Sahih Muslim 3309, Bukhari 58:236)

Did not have sex with children.

Ordered the murder of women.
(Ibn Ishaq 819, 995)

Never harmed a woman.

"O you who believe! Fight those of the
unbelievers who are near to you
and let them find in you hardness."
(Qur'an 9:123)

"Blessed are the meek, for
they shall inherit the earth."
(Matthew 5:5)

Ordered 65 military campaigns
and raids in his last 10 years.
(Ibn Ishaq )

Ordered no military campaigns, nor
offered any approval of war or violence.

Killed captives taken in battle.
(Ibn Ishaq 451)

Never took captives.
Never killed anyone.

Encouraged his men to rape enslaved women.
(Abu Dawood 2150, Qur'an 4:24)

Never encouraged rape.
Never enslaved women.

Demanded captured slaves and
a fifth of all other loot taken in war.
(Qur'an 8:41)

"The Son of Man came not
to be served, but to serve."
(Matthew 20:28)

Was never tortured, but tortured others.
(Muslim 4131, Ibn Ishaq 436, 595, 734, 764)

Suffered torture, but never tortured anyone.

"And fight them until there is no more persecution and religion is only for Allah"
(Qur'an 8:39)

"Love your enemies and pray
for those who persecute you"
(Matthew 5:44)

Blessed the brutal murder of a half-blind man
(al-Tabari 1440)

Healed a blind man
(Mark 8:28)

Ordered a slave to build the very pulpit
from which he preached Islam.
(Bukhari 47:743)

Washed his disciples feet.
(John 13:5)

What are the Greatest Commandments?
"Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause"
(Muslim 1:149)

What are the Greatest Commandments?
"Love God and love thy neighbor as thyself."
(Matthew 22:34-40)

Demanded the protection of armed bodyguards, even in a house of worship
(Qur'an 4:102)

Chastised anyone attempting
to defend him with force.
(John 18:10-12)

Died fat and wealthy from what was
taken from others in war or
demanded from others in tribute.

Demanded nothing for himself.
Died without possessions.

Advocated crucifying others.
(Qur'an 5:33, Muslim 16:4131)

Was crucified himself.

According to his followers:
Had others give their lives for him.
(Sahih Muslim 4413)

According to his followers:
Gave his life for others.
(John 18:11 and elsewhere)

Edited February 24, 2014 by Alan McDougall

[swansont]

That's certainly evidence that one can cherry-pick passages from holy books.

[SlavicWolf]

If you want to learn more about real Islam, read the history of the world by Al Tabari. It covers the entire history of Islam from it's beginnings up to 9th century and will give you a clue about what kind of man Muslims have as their supreme moral authority.

Edited February 24, 2014 by SlavicWolf

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

I'm closing this thread pending review.

 

Before I do however, a few things. Alan, we do not generally allow members to cherry pick and evade questions in the manner that you have. Please keep it in mind should you choose to start a new thread.

 

SlavicWolf, stop advertising that book. If you can't make posts with actual content that don't violate our rules, please refrain from posting.