can chinese excess production create world communism?

[nameta9]

I was reading here and there of how much chinese production in various industries continues to increase (textiles, TV sets etc). Could this actually be a clever way of indirectly creating world wide communism by overproducing everything and letting the prices get lower and lower worldwide ? Since they are a closed society with enormous manpower they could eventually virtually out compete almost everyone in every field. Imagine if they started exporting cars, furniture at the same rate of their textile industry! They could always prove that their communist system can produce unlimited goods for everyone therefore proving that capitalism is not the future ?

[Ophiolite]

China has never been and never will be a communist country. The current governmental structure began with an ideology based on the principles of communism, that were never fully applied . Attempts to forcibly advance the transition from the socialist phase to the communist phase during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution failed, in part because of the growth of the personality cult around Mao Zhe Dung.

Today China is closer to a laissez faire capitalist economy than anywhere in the West. (e.g. compare the number of deaths in the mining industry in China today with those in Victorian England.)

If China establishes anything on a global scale it will be a global Empire, something they feel entitled to do as the most cultured, intelligent, diligent, longest established society on the planet.

[nameta9]

I am thinking more in terms of a possible "technological singularity" in the sense that even though no one notices but the potential for unlimited industrial production from one massive country could overthrow all the market rules and create free goods for everyone. If you add advanced production methods, authoritarian chinese governmet and 500 million workers you can flood the world with goods and change the economic rules. You would achieve "communism" without ever NOTICING IT!

[YT2095]

unlikely IMO.

 

not only that, but at what cost to their workforce? the conditions in many places are absolutely appauling!

[coquina]

I am thinking more in terms of a possible "technological singularity" in the sense that even though no one notices but the potential for unlimited industrial production from one massive country could overthrow all the market rules and create free goods for everyone. If you add advanced production methods, authoritarian chinese governmet and 500 million workers you can flood the world with goods and change the economic rules. You would achieve "communism" without ever NOTICING IT!

 

Here's an article about it:

http://www.chinatoday.com.cn/English/e2005/e200501/b7.htm

 

I read something in our local newspaper last week about residences having to do without electricity so the factories can run.

 

China's coal mines are the most dangerous in the world, and many of them are largely depleted:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-11/13/content_391242.htm

 

I would guess that as China has to import more and more coal, the prices of the things she produces will have to rise.

[nameta9]

Problem may be restated as this: can the world end up to a point of overproduction so that everything becomes a commodity and humanity ends up into an egualitarian society without even noticing it? If all production and technology increases and improves with all the world population we may end up into a communistic like society without noticing it. I often read that the car industry has EXCESS CAPACITY. Why not just let them keep on making as many cars as they can and so the same in all industries ? We can end up having a super glut of everything and everything becomes free.

[coquina]

Problem may be restated as this: can the world end up to a point of overproduction so that everything becomes a commodity and humanity ends up into an egualitarian society without even noticing it? If all production and technology increases and improves with all the world population we may end up into a communistic like society without noticing it. I often read that the car industry has EXCESS CAPACITY. Why not just let them keep on making as many cars as they can and so the same in all industries ? We can end up having a super glut of everything and everything becomes free.

 

NO, that can't happen. In addition to a labor force, production requires electrical power, raw materials, machinery, and TAXES. All of that costs money. The only way the factory can get the funds to pay for the cost of operation is to sell all the products that they manufacture in a timely manner and at a high enough price to cover all their expenses and have some profit left over. If people are not buying the cars, it does no good to make more and sell them for less than it costs to build them.

[Ophiolite]

We can end up having a super glut of everything and everything becomes free.

TANSTAAFL

Robert Heinlein

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANSTAAFL

[syntax252]

If China is truely a laissez faire capitalist economy, then would it not follow that the workers will do what we did in America?

 

Wouldn't they form unions and demand more pay and better working conditions? And when they all get their little cottage to live in, won't they then turn to environmental concerns?

 

And won't all that cost Chinese manufacturers more money to produce their products?

 

Won't that sort of equalize the equasion to some degree?

 

If China does not pay their own workers enough money to buy the things that they produce, they will be missing out on one of the world's biggest markets, right?

 

And If they do pay them that kind of money, we will be able to compete with them--I think.....

[Tommio]

Picking up in the starting post, even if china can produce masses of products such as TV's and cars, this does not mean people will buy it. Many people could bouycot the products because of working conditions, like YT2095 said.

 

Also, would china corporations want to pay to export into the US because of the ludicrously high taxing on importations.

 

As well as this, would people accept the build quality and styling.

 

IMO i don't think that just because you have alot of something you want to sell, then people will buy it - look at the UK and turnip production!

[Cadmus]

Imagine if they started exporting cars, furniture at the same rate of their textile industry!

No need to imagine. It is already forecast that China will surpass the United States as the number one producer of cars withiin the next 5 years or so. Chinese made furniture is also booming in the U.S.

[Tommio]

Sort of defeats my idea that no one will buy it then

[Cadmus]

If China is truely a laissez faire capitalist economy, then would it not follow that the workers will do what we did in America?

I think not in the near term certainly. The cultural and political climate is too different.

 

Wouldn't they form unions and demand more pay and better working conditions?

I think that when tens of millions of rural people flooded the cities every year the factory owners had the upper hand. Now, things are showing signs of change, and workers have more choice. Perhaps unions or union-like structures will follow.

 

And when they all get their little cottage to live in, won't they then turn to environmental concerns?

This is much less like in the near term, I think.

 

And won't all that cost Chinese manufacturers more money to produce their products?

Already happening.

[reverse]

now that is a funny idea.

 

why not.

 

he who controls the money controls the politics ( in the end )

 

note : The Chinese that I know are disillusioned with communism.

they have suffered through it's short comings.

[Cadmus]

note : The Chinese that I know are disillusioned with communism.

they have suffered through it's short comings.

In modern China, that thought and a quarter will get people a cup of coffee.

Many people are disillusioned with the Chinese government. Remember the June 1 (1989) incident? What did that change?

[nameta9]

I think that everything could change if the world economic structure changes so radically. We had Japan, Europe and US , now we will add china, india and a few others and what will happen? I don't believe in the theory that there will be more "advanced" work for the richer countries, this isn't true, doesn't seem like scientific research is being increased in us, europe or japan. Truth is, we all really don't know what jobs there will be, if there really will be any. Most I see are really crappy(call centers??) sales , etc. I think we should maybe build a few billion homes around the world and that may really be productive, but no one wants to because it goes against the interests of dominating forces wolrdwide. Everyone feels richer if their house is "worth" more but it is really just an illusion. Expensive homes mean less wealth for everyone in the long run. We will have to deal with a billlion workers worldwide who will work for 300 or 400 dollars a month and that will change things!

[coquina]

I think that everything could change if the world economic structure changes so radically. We had Japan, Europe and US , now we will add china, india and a few others and what will happen? I don't believe in the theory that there will be more "advanced" work for the richer countries, this isn't true, doesn't seem like scientific research is being increased in us, europe or japan. Truth is, we all really don't know what jobs there will be, if there really will be any. Most I see are really crappy(call centers??) sales , etc. I think we should maybe build a few billion homes around the world and that may really be productive, but no one wants to because it goes against the interests of dominating forces wolrdwide. Everyone feels richer if their house is "worth" more but it is really just an illusion. Expensive homes mean less wealth for everyone in the long run. We will have to deal with a billlion workers worldwide who will work for 300 or 400 dollars a month and that will change things!

 

I don't think that is true either - not for the short run, anyway. The big companies here who are having their products made in China don't want them to be conceptualized in China.

 

What I have done in the past is to take a company's idea and turn it into a prototype. Once that prototype is proved to work, finish drawings are sent overseas. In many cases, the Chinese companies may not know what they are building. Company A builds part A, Company B builds part B and company C assembles them. That way, no one company can easily hijack someone else's patent. Of course, "easily" has different connotations depending on how cheap time is valued.

[reverse]

In modern China' date=' that thought and a quarter will get people a cup of coffee.

Many people are disillusioned with the Chinese government. Remember the June 1 (1989) incident? What did that change?[/quote']

 

Sorry you lost me there.

 

please expand upon it.

 

thanks.

[Cadmus]

Sorry you lost me there.

 

please expand upon it.

 

thanks.

You say that many people are disillusioned with the Chinese government. I agree, however I noted that many people have long been disillusioned with the Chinese government. I know many people who suffered greatly during the cultural revolution, for example. Disillusionment with the Chinese government and changing the Chinese government in major ways are two separate animals. I pointed out that there was a major "pro democracy" movement in Tiananmen Square in the center of Beijing in the June 1 incident. How many thousands of students did the army kill? What changed? There are certain changes that the Chinese government is eager to adopt, particulary economic policies that are benefical to the country. There are certain changes that the Chinese government just will not accept in the near term, particularly political power sharing, freedom of the press and the Internet, and others.

[nameta9]

As far as the rest of the world is concerned, it is better that they continue to work like slaves for 200 dollars a month making all kinds of goods as cheap as possible. This will in the long run create world communism. We are all slaves up to a cetain extent, so democracy may really not be important....

At walmart i bought a digital watch for 1 dollar made in china...

If cheaper and cheaper goods flood america, the US will become a communist country, actually the US is already very communist from this point of view!

[syntax252]

Well, I have a brighter view, albiet with a somber ending.

 

I think that the whole world will industralize to the point that they will all share in the rewards of industrialzation, that is to say that they will be paid more, will have more, consume more and, in a lot of places, live longer more healthy lives.

 

Now for the somber part.

 

I am concerned that the old planet just might not have sufficient resources to support some 6 billion people living lives as opulent as 300 million Americans do.

 

If it comes to that, when push comes to shove, I am afraid that we could see war on a scale not here-to-fore dreamed of.

[Aardvark]

As far as the rest of the world is concerned, it is better that they continue to work like slaves for 200 dollars a month making all kinds of goods as cheap as possible. This will in the long run create world communism.

 

In what way would cheap goods create communism? Lower cost of living isn't the same as communism, just because goods become cheap for me to buy doesn't alter the fact that i still have to work for a living, cheap Chinese goods don't cut my rent or utility bills.

 

We are all slaves up to a cetain extent, so democracy may really not be important....

 

That just sounds naive.

 

At walmart i bought a digital watch for 1 dollar made in china...

If cheaper and cheaper goods flood america' date=' the US will become a communist country, actually the US is already very communist from this point of view![/quote']

 

You seem to have an exccentric definition of communism. How would you actually define communism?

[Cadmus]

How would you actually define communism?

I agree that it is about time for this question to be raised.

[nameta9]

Complex argument. In general it is thought that capitalism is not the ultimate social organization, in fact marx thought that "scientifically" the system would in the end give rise to another system. I seem to think that this is quite possible, not because it is "socially just" or all the old time ideological crap but because if we do progress somewhere as humanity we should end up overcoming all this crap of fighting each other all the time as we have today. Scientific knowledge should increase, wealth should increase and in the end "WITHOUT NOTICING IT" we could end up in another more "advanced" system. Actually there are small examples of these things happening exactly with the internet and IT. Open source is kind of "communistic" but nobody did it because of "ideology". Same thing with peer to peer. The internet itself could be defined as "communism achieved" if people were not so ideologically idiots dividing the concepts in right and left and all the old time bull. The point is humanity could end up manipulating and fighting nature as a whole instead of fighting each other.

[Aardvark]

As economic inequalities have been consistently widening over the past 20 years and the capitalisitic market system has become even more greatly entrenched your idea seems a bit unlikely.

 

Perhaps if you elaborated on what you think this new system would actually be, you have remained very vague.

 

Are you suggesting that with new technologies production will result in us all living like Kings whatever our economic status freeing us from the drudgery everyday work?

 

If you are then this idea has been proposed several times in the past, in the 1950's it was postulated that electricity would be 'to cheap to meter' with nuclear power. Stories were written about how people were going to live in societies with mass over production of everything (something Marx actually predicted).

 

And yet it never actually seems to happen.