CharonY Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Found a neat paper about how tawny crazy ants (Nylanderia fulva) are able to take on and displace the aggressive fire ants (Solenopsis invicta). Apparently crazy ants somehow use formic acid that they produce themselves to somehow detoxify the strong venom produced by fire ants. While the crazy ants are now starting to displace the fire ants in the US, the arms race between those two species probably originated in South America where there habitats are overlapping. Article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 In terms of the ants themselves the term ‘venom’ is possibly a misnomer, in that, for them it’s a simple poison; perhaps it maybe simply a case of acid verses an alkaline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acme Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Found a neat paper about how tawny crazy ants (Nylanderia fulva) are able to take on and displace the aggressive fire ants (Solenopsis invicta). Apparently crazy ants somehow use formic acid that they produce themselves to somehow detoxify the strong venom produced by fire ants. While the crazy ants are now starting to displace the fire ants in the US, the arms race between those two species probably originated in South America where there habitats are overlapping. Article Interesting. Particularly in that your link says formic acid is the detoxifying agent when formic acid is a common toxin among ants. In fact formic acid takes its name from the Latin name for ant, formica. Formic acid is also the toxin that gives Stinging Nettle its sting. resource: http://hubpages.com/hub/Formic-Acid-Dangers-and-Uses-in-Nature-and-in-Humans In terms of the ants themselves the term venom is possibly a misnomer, in that, for them its a simple poison; perhaps it maybe simply a case of acid verses an alkaline? I don't think venom is misapplied in this case. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/venom venom (vĕn′əm) Any of various poisonous substances secreted by certain snakes, spiders, scorpions, and insects and transmitted to a victim by a bite or sting. Venoms are highly concentrated fluids that typically consist of dozens or hundreds of powerful enzymes, peptides, and smaller organic compounds. These compounds target and disable specific chemicals in the victim, damaging cellular and organ system function. Snake venoms, for example, contain substances that block platelet aggregation (causing bleeding) and that prevent the release of acetylcholine by nerve endings (causing muscle paralysis). Many substances contained in venoms are under investigation for use as pharmaceuticals. Reading further in my link they give this on the Fire Ant toxin. ...The sting of fire ants contains alkaloids and some proteins, but no formic acid. I'm no chemist so I'm in no position to judge the Ph here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 The difference between venom and poison is, venom is a poison that is injected via a bite or sting and a poison is ingested; so, yes the term is indeed probably misapplied in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acme Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 The difference between venom and poison is, venom is a poison that is injected via a bite or sting and a poison is ingested; so, yes the term is indeed probably misapplied in this case. Well, in regard the Tawny ant, while they lack a stinger, they do use the formic acid as a poison in attacks and as the definition says a venom is a poison 'transmitted by a bite or sting' and if they bite and then transmit the formic acid from abdomen to bite site, then I reapply your misapply. Biting and medical implications to people, livestock and wildlife: Tawny crazy ants do not have stingers. In place of a stinger, worker ants possess an acidopore on the end of the gaster (abdomen), which can excrete chemicals for defense or attack. They are capable of biting, and when bitten, they cause a minute pain that quickly fades. http://urbanentomology.tamu.edu/ants/rasberry.html I wonder if a human victim of Fire Ant attack would find any relief rolling about in Stinging Nettles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) No, it is used accurately. The distinction is normally based on delivery (simple thing to recall, if you bite it and you die => poison, if it bites you and you die => venom). Fire ants deliver their venom actively and are not simply covered in it. With regards to the mechanism It is possible that the formic acid denatures the proteins in the venom, though it is pretty much speculation at this point. Edit: I should add that fire ants also have stingers, albeit relatively delicate ones, compared to some of bigger ones out there. Edited February 18, 2014 by CharonY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) There is no indication that the crazy ant bites anything, let alone themselves, it would seem they simply smear themselves with their own acid, thus counteracting the alkaline produced by their natural enemies. cross posted. Edited February 18, 2014 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acme Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 There is no indication that the crazy ant bites anything, let alone themselves, it would seem they simply smear themselves with their own acid, thus counteracting the alkaline produced by their natural enemies. cross posted. I just gave a reference saying otherwise, regardless of whether or not they bite Fire Ants. Did you miss that, or do you find fault with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) I think the initial confusion was whether the fire ant venom would be called a venom? The application to themselves obviously would not classify it as a venom. However, they are able to spray it. There are actually a few more definitions being in used for venom, which does include presence of toxic proteins, for example, all of which would be the case for fire but not for crazy ants. However, spraying as mode of delivery is a bit of an issue. For example, spitting cobras are undoubtedly venomous. However, they can spray their venom which does harm without a delivery system into the body other than ingestion or absorption. And again, we see that these kind of definitions are often trickier than they appear (and more importantly, nature does not care for these distinction). Passive vs active are generally useful rule of thumbs, though experts in these areas would use some finer terms to distinguish between the mode of toxin production, delivery and mode of action. Edit: also crossposted. With regards to the nettles, most likely not, but it would be interesting to see how topical application to fire ant stings would work (or any mild acid for that matter), Edited February 18, 2014 by CharonY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12012 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 While there seems to be a huge confusion between if the substance is a venom or a poison, it's still an interesting article about the ants. I've heard that many small insects have been changing/evolving; one of which bieng the cockroach. I don't remember where I read this from, but I read that there is a new species of cockroaches that actually have wings! The new species of cockroach was found in New York City; I can only hope that they don't find their way down to my area. I believe that if cockroaches and such are changing themselves into something new, that it's no suprise that there's a new toxin found in these ants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 Actually, all cockroaches have wings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 And some of them can fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 My apologies, Acme, for not replying quicker and for my suggesting tawny crazy ants don’t bite; my intention was not that they didn’t bite but rather they didn’t bite themselves to counteract the fire ant toxin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acme Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 My apologies, Acme, for not replying quicker and for my suggesting tawny crazy ants don’t bite; my intention was not that they didn’t bite but rather they didn’t bite themselves to counteract the fire ant toxin. No worries. I did not mean to suggest they bit themselves. In the article Charon linked to it says "Following exposure to S. invicta venom, N. fulva applies abdominal exocrine gland secretions to its cuticle." As they don't specify how the application is accomplished I wouldn't presume if it's done with the mandibles, legs, antennae or whatever. I do note however they specifically refer to crazy ants as having venom. >> "Further, formic acid, from N. fulva venom, ..." So again to my speculation about N. fulva bites and how they may incorporate their abdominally secreted 'venom' with said bite. I earlier suggested they might bite (a victim) and then apply the venom to the bite site, but in retrospect I'd also suggest/speculate that perhaps they rub their mandibles into the secretions first and then bite. Just thinking out loud. Interesting stuff to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 It’s certainly an intriguing example of the predator prey arms race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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