Should meat and cheese be labeled as cigarettes are labeled?

[EdEarl]

 

MedicalxPress.com

That chicken wing you're eating could be as deadly as a cigarette. In a new study that tracked a large sample of adults for nearly two decades, researchers have found that eating a diet rich in animal proteins during middle age makes you four times more likely to die of cancer than someone with a low-protein diet—a mortality risk factor comparable to smoking.

Emphasis mine.

 

This news means switch to a vegan diet. Information I've been studying indicates there is more bad news about eating meat than this study indicates.

 

If you really try to switch, don't rush it. If it takes a year or ten years to switch complete, it is better than not switching.

[Acme]

The article sounds more like a recipe for eating a balanced diet than a prescription to adopt vegetarianism. There is a lot more that goes into considering a risk of cancer than what one eats, and drawing the conclusion you do is without substantiation.

 

Everything in moderation. ~ Socrates [died of vegetable poisoning! ]

...Not only is excessive protein consumption linked to a dramatic rise in cancer mortality, but middle-aged people who eat lots of proteins from animal sources...

Emphasis mine.

[mooeypoo]

Are you seriously suggesting meat and cheese consumption is equal in damage to cigarette consumption!? There's absolutely no evidence for this.

 

Everything excessive is unhealthy. There's a difference between making that statement and announcing meat and cheese as poisonous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And aaaaaaaall of that is ignoring the fact that the vegan lifestyle *ITSELF* has problems.

[EdEarl]

Are you seriously suggesting meat and cheese consumption is equal in damage to cigarette consumption!? There's absolutely no evidence for this.

 

Everything excessive is unhealthy. There's a difference between making that statement and announcing meat and cheese as poisonous.

I didn't write the article in MedicalxPress, or do the related research.

 

And aaaaaaaall of that is ignoring the fact that the vegan lifestyle *ITSELF* has problems.

There are millions of people who live vegan life styles, including many Buddhists. I think there is no proof that a vegan life style is unhealthy.

[Acme]

I didn't write the article in MedicalxPress, or do the related research.

No, but you drew unfounded conclusions and made what amounts to a medical recommendation.

There are millions of people who live vegan life styles, including many Buddhists. I think there is no proof that a vegan life style is unhealthy.

Did you look? I did, and found that you are mistaken. Note that 'vegan' refers to more extreme vegetarians who eat no animal products at all, such as cheese or eggs. This is important in light of what follows.

 

http://www.medicinenet.com/vegetarian_and_vegan_diet/page3.htm

Vegetarian and Vegan Diet: page 3

 

Vitamin B12

 

Vitamin B12 is attached to the protein in animal foods. There has been considerable research to determine if it is also found in some plant foods. Unfortunately, the B12 that has been found in plant foods can't be used by humans. Supplements that have been made with the plant sources have been shown to contain B12 analogues, compounds that are structurally similar to B12 but do not serve the same function. Research has shown that using supplements with these analogues can actually compete with vitamin B12, inhibit its metabolism, and increase the risk of B12 deficiency.

 

Vitamin B12 deficiency causes a number of symptoms and problems, including weakness, tiredness, constipation, loss of appetite, weight loss, poor memory, dementia, depression, problems with balance, and megaloblastic anemia. You may also experience nerve problems, such as numbness and tingling in the hands and feet. Vitamin B12 deficiency can damage the nervous system even in people who don't have anemia, so it is important to treat a deficiency as soon as possible.

 

Vitamin B12 is found in seafood, dairy, eggs, and meat. Vegan diets have the highest risk of deficiency. There are many foods that are fortified with vitamin B12, so it is possible for vegan diets to contain adequate amounts of this nutrient with or without a supplement. The recommendations for reaching your vitamin B12 needs are to

1.consume food fortified with vitamin B12 two to three times a day,

2.take a B12 supplement if you are unable to consume an adequate amount in your diet or if you have an increased need for it (the elderly and pregnant and lactating women),

3.do not take excessive amounts of folate supplements, as this can mask a B12 deficiency,

4.have your B12 level checked by your physician.

So as I read it you/we need B12, no plant products supply it, and animal sources are the only way to get it. If a vegan or vegetarian is taking B12 supplements or B12 fortified foods, the source of that vitamin is some animal or animal product.

[hypervalent_iodine]

The vegan lifestyle is healthier than some, but it is inherently unhealthy when you consider that most vegan diets require supplements of some sort to meet (meat?) basic dietary requirements. Slightly off topic, though.

 

The paper is interesting. I'd be keen to hear some reviews from people who understand enough about statistical analysis to comment on the veracity of their methods. Regardless, the comparison to cigarettes is really sensationalist nonsense. The authors of the paper do not advocate for a completely vegan or vegetarian diet, they in suggest one that is low protein for middle-age people and mid-high protein for elderly people from mostly (but not exclusively) plant-based sources.

[Endy0816]

So as I read it you/we need B12, no plant products supply it, and animal sources are the only way to get it. If a vegan or vegetarian is taking B12 supplements or B12 fortified foods, the source of that vitamin is some animal or animal product.

 

Bacteria are actually responsible for producing B12(cobalamin).

 

Requires bacteria living in animals or artificially grown bacteria to produce it.

 

I do find the generally used semi-artificial form(cyanocobalamin) somewhat dubious personally since it can leave trace amounts of cyanide. My own thoughts though, I'm sure I've had it already with no noticeable effects, especially considering the Veggie MRE's I've eaten(more candy on average).

[mooeypoo]

When you get B12 from other sources than meat,we can talk about having B12 from sources other than meat.

 

 

Anyways, you posted an article that explained how there are benefits in veganism and how excessive consumption of meat is bad and took that to say that meat is as poisonous as cigarettes.

 

 

.... Do you really still not see what's wrong with this?

[EdEarl]

All the essential amino acids are available from plant sources; thus, there is no need for animal protein. B12 supplements are necessary as they are not available from plants. That doesn't mean one needs to eat meat.

[Acme]

Bacteria are actually responsible for producing B12(cobalamin).v

Interesting!

 

Requires bacteria living in animals or artificially grown bacteria to produce it.

I got from the source that I quoted that B12 humans can use was only produced in animals, but what is the B12 producing bacteria grown on/with otherwise?

 

I do find the generally used semi-artificial form(cyanocobalamin) somewhat dubious personally since it can leave trace amounts of cyanide. My own thoughts though, I'm sure I've had it already with no noticeable effects, especially considering the Veggie MRE's I've eaten(more candy on average).

Is that semi-artificial form the plant analogues mentioned in the article I quoted?

 

And what do you think of the article and claims from the opening post?

 

...The paper is interesting. I'd be keen to hear some reviews from people who understand enough about statistical analysis to comment on the veracity of their methods. ...

Here ya go. Scroll down to the comments: >> http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-03-meat-cheese-bad.html

[mooeypoo]

All the essential amino acids are available from plant sources; thus, there is no need for animal protein. B12 supplements are necessary as they are not available from plants. That doesn't mean one needs to eat meat.

 

You were already shown to be wrong with B12 (which even the vegan research admits) -- but in any case that's besides the point. You make extravagant claims you simply cannot support.

 

There's a difference between "veganism is healthier" and "eating meat is equal to smoking".

[hypervalent_iodine]

So, I'm not wading through the comments section of an article to try and find something that looks like it might be correct. I enjoy my sanity.

 

EdEarl, I am happy to concede that vegan diets can be healthier than a great many other diets if appropriately supplemented, though that is not really the point or the problem with your OP. The article that your link reference does not make the suggestion that one should not eat meat, just that you should do so in moderation. In fact, the main point of the paper was to do with protein intake, be it from meat or plants. They made the conclusion that if you consume lots of protein and if most of that protein is meat based, then the association between intake and cancer prevalence is increased further still, but high protein intake (at least almost double the RDI from what I could make out) from mostly plant sources still shows the same type of association. The title of this thread is therefore completely unwarranted and frankly, nonsense. Smoking cigarettes has obvious health implications and no real health benefits, regardless of whether you smoke a little or in excess. Eating meat in large excess is not good for you, but eating it in moderation as part of a balanced diet is.

 

In addition, the rates of lung cancer in people who smoke vs. people who never smoke is incredibly high - something in the range of 20 - 25 times. It’s certainly much higher than the difference between high and low protein intake outlined in the paper.

[StringJunky]

The researchers make associations of mortality risk between stage of life and protein intake i.e. middle-age people should consume low amounts and the old age higher amounts. Really, the research is about tuning your protein intake according to your stage of life and at certain life phases the risk factor for cancer may be equivalent to smoking. Let's not forget, the cancers from smoking are not the same as from excessive protein consumption. Also, the mention of smoking is likely from the person reporting and not the researchers.

 

"The research shows that a low-protein diet in middle age is useful for preventing cancer and overall mortality, through a process that involves regulating IGF-I and possibly insulin levels," said co-author Eileen Crimmins, the AARP Chair in Gerontology at USC. "However, we also propose that at older ages, it may be important to avoid a low-protein diet to allow the maintenance of healthy weight and protection from frailty..."

 

Graphical abstract from the paper:

 

 

http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/retrieve/pii/S155041311400062X

 

Note the title of the paper:

 

Low Protein Intake Is Associated with a Major Reduction in IGF-1, Cancer, and Overall Mortality in the 65 and Younger but Not Older Population

[imatfaal]

re B12 we have discussed this before and I will see if I can find a link. Marmite is very high in B12 but I believe it is a post-production supplement. Marmite is approved by the Vegetarian Society - not sure about Vegans.

 

And you have to love Marmite!

[hypervalent_iodine]

re B12 we have discussed this before and I will see if I can find a link. Marmite is very high in B12 but I believe it is a post-production supplement. Marmite is approved by the Vegetarian Society - not sure about Vegans.

 

And you have to love Marmite!

 

 

 

This thread? The thread was somewhat (very) frustrating towards the end, but covered a lot of good info in the first few pages.

 

Edit: Link should be okay now.

[imatfaal]

Thanks HyperVI - your link is a little screwy (sends me to imatfaal.com)

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/72873-how-can-a-autodidact-without-formal-education-propose-his-theory/

[swansont]

One of the things that gives me pause in papers like this is the use of relative risk vs absolute risk, because of the risk is small to begin with then a large increase in relative risk is still very small. That's probably not so much the case here, since the risk of cancer in the target age group is somewhat less than 1% per year. (That's the end-result value, which includes the cohort that eats lots of animal protein.) I think mentioning relative risk tends to obscure what's going on.

Also there's the use of "a mortality risk factor comparable to smoking", which is incredibly vague. The risk associated with smoking depends heavily on how much you smoke and how long you've been a smoker.

 

As far as vegan/vegetarianism goes, I attended a talk recently where it was pointed out that there are micro-animals such as tardigrades that are on plant life and just don't get washed off. On an absolute scale, there's no such thing as a vegetarian or vegan.

And you have to love Marmite!

 

 

Marmite has always sounded like a type of explosive to me.

[imatfaal]

Marmite has always sounded like a type of explosive to me.

I know those who would describe it as an illegal chemical weapon

[Endy0816]

Marmite is yeast extract, the B12 is added in later.

 

While I'm not sure on the bacteria's exact requirements herbivores harbor them as well as every other animal, so presumably the bacteria would be fine getting what they need from inorganic or plant sources.

 

It is generally recycled internally, but inevitably our own bacteria manage to toss some of it out and the effects of a deficiency are nothing you want to test on yourself.

 

[Greg H.]

Replying strictly to the question in the thread title, no. Meat and cheese both have nutritional value (even if you choose not to partake of them), and can be consumed in moderate quantities without harm.

 

The same cannot be said about cigarettes, which have no positive or redeeming qualities, except for filling the pockets of their corporate investors.

 

The key is exercising moderation in consumption - after all, even water will kill you if you drink too much of it at one time.

[Phi for All]

Marmite has always sounded like a type of explosive to me.

 

There are lots of applications for an explosive that could be put into caulking tubes and squeezed into hard-to-reach places. Or eaten, if the door turns out to be open already.

[John Cuthber]

I'm intrigued that this thread has degenerated into an argument that could be summed up as

"One extreme diet is bad for you!"

"Another extreme diet, at the opposite end of the spectrum is also bad for you".

with a side order of marmite.

 

The fact remains that a meat heavy diet isn't very healthy (I thought everybody already knew that), but it's misleading to compare it to smoking.

 

How did the science disappear so quickly?

[hypervalent_iodine]

I know those who would describe it as an illegal chemical weapon

Please. Vegemite is where it's at.

[CharonY]

Actually, I am not even sure whether a pure meat diet would be bad per se (as in being toxic) just less healthy than a more balanced diet. The linked article does a bad job in interpreting the study they cite and even the the study itself is not without issues (the smoking is a gross exaggeration, for that matter, although effect size is a bit tricky to calculate).

 

Just to make a point, the cited study also found that low-protein intake may be actually be hazerdous for older adults. They found for example that at least 10% of the calorie intake should be proteins for adults older than 65 to minimiz IGF-1 loss for example. In summary the associations are indicative for certain metabolic functions that we are still uncertain of and are somewhat age dependent. It would be hard to make the case for toxic effects as known for tobacco smoke.

 

Edit: I overlooked that the the point was made earlier already.

Edited March 6, 2014 by CharonY

[overtone]

 

 

s far as vegan/vegetarianism goes, I attended a talk recently where it was pointed out that there are micro-animals such as tardigrades that are on plant life and just don't get washed off. On an absolute scale, there's no such thing as a vegetarian or vegan.

Cattle raised in confinement and fed processed plant material - not allowed to graze natural pasture full of insects etc - require protein supplements in their feed. Very, very few megavertebrates survive on strictly vegetarian diets - certainly no grazing or browsing herbivores.

 

I don't know of any significantly large groups of humans who do - in a modern high tech industrial society it's possible to import specialty plant material from far away or manufacture chemically the nutrients normally provided by animal products, but somebody restricting their diet to locally grown plants cleaned of insects and dirt etc is going to damage their health.

 

One might contrast modern industrial societies such as Japan's, where meat consumption (as opposd to fish) has been very low for generations even among the wealthy. They live a long time, but not notably longer than similarly calorie restricted meat eaters. In old age they suffer less from heart disease than many but not all comparable meat eaters, but more from some kinds of stroke apparently related to low cholesteral consumption.