Any bread baker expert around ?

[Externet]

More an art than a science, am trying to do it the science way

 

Found that making the dough, I have failed too many times because e v e r y ingredient should be by ~43C (110F) and the room temperature too ! Unless am still wrong. Can anyone confirm please ?

 

Question 2 : If the dough is impatiently let to rise for hours, why is then beaten the gas out of it to start waiting hours to rise again ?

 

Question 3 : If the plan is to freeze the dough for later use, is it fine to mix/make the dough at everything by ~15C (60F) so the yeast will not awake ? Or, which way allows to safely freeze the dough ?

 

Question 4 : If the rise of dough is yeast farts making the bubbles; why baking powder does not work or not used for bread ?

Edited March 13, 2014 by Externet

[Acme]

More an art than a science, am trying to do it the science way

 

Found that making the dough, I have failed too many times because e v e r y ingredient should be by ~43C (110F) and the room temperature too ! Unless am still wrong. Can anyone confirm please ?

 

Question 2 : If the plan is to freeze the dough for later use, is it fine to mix/make the dough at everything by ~15C (60F) so the yeast will not awake ? Or, which way allows to safely freeze the dough ?

 

Question 3 : If the rise of dough is yeast farts making the bubbles; why baking powder does not work or not used for bread ?

I have been baking 2 loaves of honey/wheat bread about every 10 days for the past year. Grandkids won't eat anything else now!

 

So I'm experienced but not exactly an expert.

 

#1 My recipe calls for having the water between 120º & 130ºF. At 120º I have found it does not rise as well as at 125º and at 130º it rises even less well. Altitude and barometric pressure can also affect rising so pay attention to each of these factors each time you bake. Write down or remember details when you have best result and try to repeat. Sometimes I still don't get a good rise and have no idea why. Thorough kneeding is also important as it works air into the dough. 10 minutes a must. One thing with bread, you can always eat your mistakes.

 

#2 I don't know about freezing as I have not tried that.

 

#3 Baking powder and baking soda need an acidic component in the dough/batter to react with and work. Yeast bread recipes usually don't have such an ingredient because they don't need it. There are soda-bread recipes you can look up. I recently saw one such recipe from Ireland on a cooking show. Apparently if not done right it can be quite dense. Think rock hard.

 

Gotta run. Let me know if I was any help and let us all know your results. Be warned that if you have folks around in your house when the bread comes out it will be rapidly consumed.

[hypervalent_iodine]

I had thought kneading was more about making gluten and making the dough elastic than anything else. The elasticity causes the gas created by the yeast to be trapped in the dough, but it also creates something that's a bit more workable if you're rolling it out or shaping it. IIRC, the requirement to knock down dough and knead it a second time after proving it is so that you don't get huge air bubbles in the finished product.

 

I have no experience in freezing dough (I usually make it as I need/knead it) and my method seems even less precise than Acme's. I use lukewarm water with a bit of honey or sugar to start it off and leave it for a little bit before continuing. I don't worry about the temperatures of everything else, though I live in a subtropical part of Australia and cold temperatures aren't really a problem (ever). Humidity on the other hand...

 

In addition to Acme's comment about baking powder / soda, I would also add that the yeast in the dough makes it taste good (IMO).

[Externet]

More head scratching now...

I thought gluten was a constituent of wheat, not something that forms by kneading.

And in my ignorant opinion, yeast dies at over 44ºC. And as a suspicion, recipes calling for hotter water to dissolve yeast is to take in account the cooling effect by bowls and utensils and ambient loss of heat to keep it as close as possible to the optimal temperature.

And baking powder already contains the acid. Baking soda does not.

 

Well, am skidding off my own topic, but learning is learning.

[hypervalent_iodine]

There are some proteins in the dough that end up cross linked and deformed to give gluten. This gives an overview of what I am talking about.

 

And baking powder already contains the acid. Baking soda does not.

 

Quite right! I looked it up because there doesn't seem to be any reason why it wouldn't work. Turns out, it is a thing and that thing is called quick bread.

[EdEarl]

Sorry, my experience is as a bread breaker.

Edited March 13, 2014 by EdEarl

[CharonY]

1) Temperature affects overall kinetics of the reaction, especially yeast activity. The actual temp is less important than the overall timing. I.e. if ingredients are colder, it will take a bit longer. Unless you got extreme conditions, it should not have severe effects. Note down the time that you need to get decent results at given temps and go from there.

 

2) You are referring to the first rise. It depends on the bread. The idea here is to aim for a given texture, that may be different to each bread type and depends on your initial knead and dough. The way it rises will depend on the gluten formation (that, in turn affects overall elasticity of your bread). If you punch it down (which is not always a thorough kneading) you will let the yeast do its work more thoroughly. The idea here is to get a more consistent and finer inner structure. In addition, several rises will result in a different taste as the yeast ferments more. This is especially relevant if you use sourdough, which contains lactobacilli that add a more acidic taste. In short, repeated rises affect texture and taste.

 

3) Freezing will affect the way gluten form and will affect overall structure. Even if brought to room temp again the bread will be more rubbery. Doughs that are for fridges have additional components to preserve the dough structure.

 

4) This has been addressed already. But again, kinetics is different and so is the final bread structure.

[Acme]

More head scratching now...

I thought gluten was a constituent of wheat, not something that forms by kneading.

And in my ignorant opinion, yeast dies at over 44ºC. And as a suspicion, recipes calling for hotter water to dissolve yeast is to take in account the cooling effect by bowls and utensils and ambient loss of heat to keep it as close as possible to the optimal temperature.

And baking powder already contains the acid. Baking soda does not.

 

Well, am skidding off my own topic, but learning is learning.

Just a note that my recipe does not call for dissolving the yeast in water first. Following the recipe, I combine wheat flour, honey, salt, butter, & yeast and use a mixer on low to combine them. Then a more-or-less like amount of white flour is stirred in by hand until the dough is no longer sticky. [The recipe calls for shortening, but that has soy in it & one of the kids has a problem with soy so I use butter] Anyway, after that mixing the recipe calls for adding the warm water.

 

As to baking powder vs. baking soda. Baking powder contains baking soda [sodium hydrogen carbonate] and that is what reacts with the acids. Baking powder also contains different acid compounds that can react immediately when wetted as well as a delayed reaction when heated in the case of "double acting" baking powder.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baking_powder

The acid in a baking powder can be either fast-acting or slow-acting.[7] A fast-acting acid reacts in a wet mixture with baking soda at room temperature, and a slow-acting acid will not react until heated in an oven. Baking powders that contain both fast- and slow-acting acids are double acting; those that contain only one acid are single acting. By providing a second rise in the oven, double-acting baking powders increase the reliability of baked goods by rendering the time elapsed between mixing and baking less critical, and this is the type most widely available to consumers today. Double-acting baking powders work in two phases; once when cold, and once when hot.[8] Common low-temperature acid salts include cream of tartar and monocalcium phosphate (also called calcium acid phosphate). High-temperature acid salts include sodium aluminium sulfate, sodium aluminum phosphate, and sodium acid pyrophosphate.[9]

I had thought kneading was more about making gluten and making the dough elastic than anything else. ...

In addition to Acme's comment about baking powder / soda, I would also add that the yeast in the dough makes it taste good (IMO).

Yes on the taste good! Moreover, the smell of baking yeast bread gets the taste buds primed. Nothin' says lovin' like bread in the oven.

 

There are some proteins in the dough that end up cross linked and deformed to give gluten. This gives an overview of what I am talking about.

...

Reading your link it seems oxidation is key to developing the gluten. Perhaps this is why the kneading adding air, as I said, aids in the rising. ?