Missing Malaysia 777 flight...

[Externet]

Would it be possible that the airplane did a ~soft 'landing' on sea without engines running by whatever failure, and by the 'soft' impact with the sea, the fuselage deformed/cracked preventing escape doors to open and later sunk in one piece, leaving no floating traces

[Moontanman]

I think it was hijacked and is sitting at a secret runway some place relatively near by..

Edited March 14, 2014 by Moontanman

[Endy0816]

I think it was hijacked and is sitting at a secrete runway some place relatively near by

 

I don't want to ever land on a secreted runway.

[arc]

I think it was hijacked and is sitting at a secrete runway some place relatively near by

 

I think it would appear on numerous traffic control radar and would be accounted for or considered unidentified and tracked closely, post 911 style. Are there any runways anywhere that size that we don't know about or haven't already looked at with satellites since this developed? It would have to be a fairly large facility, yet not have any spectators that would comment about an unusually large plane for such a obscure airport.

[Externet]

If hijacked, would the occupants cell telephones provide location to cell towers ?

 

Cell phones can be awaked by a "service mode" command remotely and enable the microphones, unless battery has been pulled out. I supposed someone tried that already.

[Spyman]

Wikipedia has some basic information for those interested:

 

Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 (MH370/MAS370), also marketed as China Southern Airlines flight 748 (CZ748) through a codeshare, was a scheduled passenger flight from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, to Beijing, China. On 8 March 2014, the Boeing 777-200ER aircraft operated by Malaysia Airlines disappeared in flight with 227 passengers on board from 15 countries, most of whom were Chinese, and 12 crew members. The aircraft last made contact with air traffic control less than an hour after take-off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370

 

I think it's strange that they can't make a clear statement whether or not they have received signals from the onboard maintenance systems after the plane went missing.

 

The airline reported in its eleventh press release that all of its aircraft are fitted with an Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS), a system that automatically transmits data about the status of the aircraft, but added "Nevertheless, there were no distress calls and no information was relayed." When Malaysian officials were asked by a Flightglobal reporter if they had any ACARS information or not, the officials declined to comment.

 

...Follow-up reporting by Reuters suggested that a cessation of engine reports did not necessarily mean there was no evidence of continued flight as the evidence may have taken the form of "pings" sent by the aircraft's maintenance troubleshooting systems that indicated to satellites it was merely ready to communicate as opposed to sending reports. The Wall Street Journal then corrected its story to drop references to Rolls-Royce and say that the belief of continued flight was "based on analysis of signals sent by the Boeing 777's satellite-communication link... the link operated in a kind of standby mode and sought to establish contact with a satellite or satellites. These transmissions did not include data..."

 

Even if it was only "pings" to establish contact with satellites, it means that the airplane was at least partially functioning and above water surface for a duration after the disappearance.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Spyman

[swansont]

I think you're overestimating the abundance of cell phone towers out at sea (or in some areas of some countries), and how much civilian radar can do. It's my understanding that much of the tracking comes from query and response from onboard transponders, not active use of true radar — if you turn the transponder off, the plane is invisible to civilian radar.

 

Can't find the link now, but one article said that two separate transponder signals went dark, but at different times. And that military (active) radar detected the plane on a different course after it went dark. That strongly suggests that there wasn't a catastrophic incident causing to disappear from civilian radar.

 

Add to the mix the usual effect of incomplete information, with things that are wrong or merely speculation being reported as solid fact.

[Spyman]

The report of military radar detection has been withdrawn as "inaccurate and incorrect" reported by media:

 

On 11 March, it was reported that military radar indicated the aircraft turned west and continued flying for 70 minutes before disappearing near Pulau Perak; and that it was tracked flying at a lower altitude across Malaysia to the Malacca Strait. This last location is approximately 500 km (311 mi) from its last position in contact with air traffic control. The next day Rodzali Daud denied making the statements as reported in the media, requesting that the misreporting be "amended and corrected to prevent further misinterpretations of what is clearly an inaccurate and incorrect report".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370

[studiot]

 

Add to the mix the usual effect of incomplete information, with things that are wrong or merely speculation being reported as solid fact.

 

 

 

I agree, but with several different authorities involved are they each telling the other all they know?

 

Is any one body collecting and collating all the available information?

[imatfaal]

I agree, but with several different authorities involved are they each telling the other all they know?

Almost certainly not - my experience with sea emergencies is that grand words are spoken but petty policies enacted.

 

Is any one body collecting and collating all the available information?

Even better - we have five or six agencies in charge; that has to be better doesn't it?

 

My hope lies in military personnel, merchant seamen, individual employees of a myriad of govt agencies, and a mass of volunteers doing that bit extra, searching the seas outside your watch-time, spending time checking the unlikely - all performing that most thankless and soul-destroying of tasks searching the wide wide sea for the tiniest sign of the passing of 239 human lives. It seems from the latest BBC reports that they are now looking in the Indian Ocean which is one or two land crossings away from original search area.

[Acme]

I think you're overestimating the abundance of cell phone towers out at sea (or in some areas of some countries), and how much civilian radar can do. It's my understanding that much of the tracking comes from query and response from onboard transponders, not active use of true radar if you turn the transponder off, the plane is invisible to civilian radar. ...

The transponders only send specific aircraft identification info to control towers and they are not necessary for an aircraft to be seen on radar. [i know this from listening to aircraft control radio out of PDX]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder

... In air navigation or radio frequency identification, a flight transponder is a device that emits an identifying signal in response to an interrogating received signal. ...

I agree about no cell towers at sea and the limits of radar. Radar is line of sight and if nothing else, the curvature of Earth will put an aircraft 'off the radar' at some certain distance dependent on the elevation of the radar transmitting dish and/or its power.

[swansont]

The transponders only send specific aircraft identification info to control towers and they are not necessary for an aircraft to be seen on radar. [i know this from listening to aircraft control radio out of PDX]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder

I agree about no cell towers at sea and the limits of radar. Radar is line of sight and if nothing else, the curvature of Earth will put an aircraft 'off the radar' at some certain distance dependent on the elevation of the radar transmitting dish and/or its power.

 

What I read implied that primary radar is sometimes turned off and only secondary radar is used, or that the plane was out of range of primary radar. All things being equal, primary has a shorter range since it drops off as r⁴, while secondary drops off as r².

[Acme]

What I read implied that primary radar is sometimes turned off and only secondary radar is used, or that the plane was out of range of primary radar. All things being equal, primary has a shorter range since it drops off as r⁴, while secondary drops off as r².

Mmmmm...I'd need to read what you read. Did I miss the link?

 

Anyway, the transponders have nothing to do with the radar. Besides the power dropping off with distance, there is a radar ceiling below which it cannot see. Even if the radar had enough power, if the plane dropped in altitude or flew far enough so that it was below the radar ceiling, it wouldn't be detected. At PDX the traffic control radar is up on a hill @ ~ 2500 feet so it can 'see' traffic on all sides of the hill. As a consequence the controllers cannot see any aircraft below 2,500ft and they rely on the pilots to report their altitude by radio. [The transponders may report altitude but I'm not sure.]

 

Military radars are a different kettle of fish. Militaries are not in the habit of giving the specs of their equipment as doing so would make it possible for enemies to get around their capabilities. I'm not surprised that the Malaysian military is being cagey about what they did or did not image of the missing flight.

[John Cuthber]

 

 

Cell phones can be awaked by a "service mode" command remotely and enable the microphones, unless battery has been pulled out. I supposed someone tried that already.

Did you see that on CSI or something?

[Externet]

Hi.

I do not know what CSI is. A search directed me to some movies ? I did have a CSI phone patch in the eighties, is that about ?

----> http://www.connectsystems.com/products/top/PATCH%20FLEX%20PAGING.html

 

Of the known or leaked or let know things, certain entities can do many things you do not suspect. What is not published or let known, can be a speculatively more.

 

Tried to find something related on the web ----> http://www.wright.edu/rsp/Security/V2comint/Cellular.htm

 

And ----> http://mobilephonetrack.wordpress.com/

Edited March 15, 2014 by Externet

[John Cuthber]

It was the TV series I had in mind

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI:_Crime_Scene_Investigation

though I guess the movies are much the same.

The show uses a "rose tinted glasses" approach to forensic science.

Remotely turning on the "Bad Guy"'s mobile 'phone to find out where he is would be exactly the sort of thing that would happen in the show.

Unfortunately, it doesn't happen in real life. (Just think about it; nobody's mobile 'phone would stay stolen for long)

[swansont]

Mmmmm...I'd need to read what you read. Did I miss the link?

 

Anyway, the transponders have nothing to do with the radar. Besides the power dropping off with distance, there is a radar ceiling below which it cannot see. Even if the radar had enough power, if the plane dropped in altitude or flew far enough so that it was below the radar ceiling, it wouldn't be detected. At PDX the traffic control radar is up on a hill @ ~ 2500 feet so it can 'see' traffic on all sides of the hill. As a consequence the controllers cannot see any aircraft below 2,500ft and they rely on the pilots to report their altitude by radio. [The transponders may report altitude but I'm not sure.]

 

Military radars are a different kettle of fish. Militaries are not in the habit of giving the specs of their equipment as doing so would make it possible for enemies to get around their capabilities. I'm not surprised that the Malaysian military is being cagey about what they did or did not image of the missing flight.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/13/world/asia/malaysia-plane-transponder.html?_r=0

 

Many air traffic controllers turn off the primary radar on their displays and just use the secondary radar, because the primary radar sometimes shows birds, clouds and other extraneous objects in the sky as well as aircraft.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control_radar_beacon_system

 

The second system is the secondary surveillance radar, or SSR, which depends on a cooperating transponder installed on the aircraft being tracked. The transponder emits a signal when it is interrogated by the secondary radar. In a transponder based system signals drop off as the inverse square of the distance to the target, instead of the fourth power in primary radars. As a result, effective range is greatly increased for a given power level. The transponder can also send encoded information about the aircraft, such as identity and altitude.

 

[Klaynos]

The type of transponder in use here (ads-b) broadcasts the aircrafts position every 2 ish second. These messages are used by SSR for aircraft tracking and have a range of about 300 km. (Note the transponder type is inferred from the aircraft tracking websites that tracked the aircraft). The range is based on an aircraft at cruise height and is broadly line of sight.

 

I'm surprised that this and the acars system can be tuned off.

[Acme]

Thanks for those clarifications Tea.

 

 

The type of transponder in use here (ads-b) broadcasts the aircrafts position every 2 ish second. These messages are used by SSR for aircraft tracking and have a range of about 300 km. (Note the transponder type is inferred from the aircraft tracking websites that tracked the aircraft). The range is based on an aircraft at cruise height and is broadly line of sight.

 

I'm surprised that this and the acars system can be tuned off.

I hadn't ever really thought about the transponders being turned off by pilots, but I have heard ATC ask pilots to reset them on numerous occasions.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Acme

[zapatos]

I'm surprised that this and the acars system can be tuned off.

From what I've been able to find, there is no on/off switch for the transponder, but the electronics system is accessible from the cockpit. If you know what you are doing, you can pull the fuse to shut off the transponder.

 

I also read that the acars system is available by subscription through Boeing and that the subscription may not have been active. If the subscription is not active, the system continues to ping satellites.

[Externet]

If there was enough fuel to make it there, next check would be looking for the 777 under palm leaves at the somali pirates operation centre.

 

Sorry for the typed error in the subject heading, If can be corrected by a moderator, thanks.

[imatfaal]

If there was enough fuel to make it there, next check would be looking for the 777 under palm leaves at the somali pirates operation centre.

 

Sorry for the typed error in the subject heading, If can be corrected by a moderator, thanks.

 

Corrected the title.

 

Seems that the plane might have got close to Perth in Australia - the coast of East Africa might not be as far out of range as we might guess (I think the Southern ports of Somalia would be about 1,000 km too far)

[michel123456]

Question:

when the radars & other acars & gps system are turned off, does the pilot know where he is? How does he know his position and what direction is he heading to?

Edited March 17, 2014 by michel123456

[Klaynos]

Question:

when the radars & other acars & gps system are turned off, does the pilot know where he is? How does he know his position and what direction is he heading to?

The ground radar does not provide any location information to pilots.

 

The satellite comma system does not provide any location information to pilots.

 

The aircraft's GPS system does not require a turned on transponder to work.

 

Aircraft also have inertial location systems which track location based on how the aircraft has moved.

 

Direction is even easier they have inertial compass system with magnetic compass backups.

[Acme]

This morning on the news 'they' said a pilot can not only disable the transponder by pulling a fuse, but they can do the same for the flight recorders.