What is choice?

[Villain]

The recent topic of 'Is sexual preference a choice?' has spurned some interesting posts. Most people, if not all, who posted were in support that it wasn't a choice, which brings us to this topic. There are different categories available with regards to sexual preference: heterosexual, homosexual, asexual, bisexual, perhaps even bestiality ,but according to that thread, for different reasons, none of them are a choice. If sexual preference isn't a choice what makes something a choice? At what level does an individual qualify for having made a choice?

[s1eep]

Sexual preference is more like a handicap, a homosexual may want to be heterosexual but he can't. No choice was in the matter. The same logic applies for a heterosexual person who wants to be homosexual, but this is unlikely since heterosexuals have no social worries about their sexuality. A person qualifies for having made a choice when there is no restraint on the choices, when they are free to make either and are not handicapped.

[StringJunky]

Choice is to making a selection based on a set of options. I would say, in ideal circumstances, that a person has made a choice when one of the available options can chosen without any coercion that is neither innately or externally sourced. Sexual preference is an innate bias.

Edited March 19, 2014 by StringJunky

[Phi for All]

Some things only seem like choices to others because they feel a loss of control if they admit they had no choice. I think sexual preference is like that.

 

What about things you can't bring yourself to eat? Is it my choice that the very thought of canned spinach makes me retch? If someone offered me a million dollars, I would choose to eat it but I can't choose to like it, or to prefer it to other foods. Is that choice or has circumstances chosen for me?

[Villain]

Sexual preference is more like a handicap, a homosexual may want to be heterosexual but he can't. No choice was in the matter. The same logic applies for a heterosexual person who wants to be homosexual, but this is unlikely since heterosexuals have no social worries about their sexuality. A person qualifies for having made a choice when there is no restraint on the choices, when they are free to make either and are not handicapped.

 

The idea that a 'homosexual' may want to be heterosexual but is somehow forced to be homosexual makes absolutely no sense. A person either has a preference for homosexuality or heterosexuality or both. It makes no sense to say that a person prefers homosexuality but at the same time prefers heterosexuality but not both.

Choice is to making a selection based on a set of options. I would say, in ideal circumstances, that a person has made a choice when one of the available options can chosen without any coercion that is neither innately or externally sourced. Sexual preference is an innate bias.

 

There are multiple options with regards sexual preference as listed in OP.

 

Sexual preference can't be purely innate since people prefer homosexuality at some stage of their lives but later prefer heterosexuality and vice versa. Regardless of this, would you agree that humans are a combination of innate characteristics and externally influences and if so how would anything be considered a choice then?

Some things only seem like choices to others because they feel a loss of control if they admit they had no choice. I think sexual preference is like that.

 

What about things you can't bring yourself to eat? Is it my choice that the very thought of canned spinach makes me retch? If someone offered me a million dollars, I would choose to eat it but I can't choose to like it, or to prefer it to other foods. Is that choice or has circumstances chosen for me?

 

Your canned spinach is a false analogy. A proper analogy would be: which one of these do you prefer - canned spinach, carrots, none, both (spinach and carrots), beef.

[davidivad]

i know i should have rung in this party sooner.

to say that there is no choice is silly.

i have several friends gay and bisexual that have argued this very point over beer with me.

i also know a cross dresser that simply dresses that way because he wants to (this is his explanation).

where are the genes in that? he likes women...

one gay friend claims that the bisexual is not really bi because you are either that way or you are not.

the bisexual claims it was a choice.

could it be that some of us are predisposed genetically? yes.

this does not mean it is that way for everyone.

to think there is no choice in life is insane and very misleading.

maybe if you argue with a gay or bi individual long enough he or she will believe you.

unknown unknown...

[Phi for All]

Sexual preference can't be purely innate since people prefer homosexuality at some stage of their lives but later prefer heterosexuality and vice versa. Regardless of this, would you agree that humans are a combination of innate characteristics and externally influences and if so how would anything be considered a choice then?

With sexual preference, it may seem like a choice because SOME people seem to switch their preference, but I think those are isolated incidents where other factors are involved. Ask yourself if you could consciously decide to "choose" to suddenly become attracted to the gender you're not attracted to now.

 

Your canned spinach is a false analogy. A proper analogy would be: which one of these do you prefer - canned spinach, carrots, none, both (spinach and carrots), beef.

It wasn't an analogy about sexual preferences at all. It was an example of a decision and I'd like to know if you think it is a "choice".

[davidivad]

it therefore not only relies upon genes.

[Villain]

With sexual preference, it may seem like a choice because SOME people seem to switch their preference, but I think those are isolated incidents where other factors are involved. Ask yourself if you could consciously decide to "choose" to suddenly become attracted to the gender you're not attracted to now.

 

 

What are you trying to infer by capitalising SOME? For the sake of your question let's assume that I can't change the gender that I'm attracted to, how is my original choice invalidated because I still have the same preference? Does choosing oranges every time you're asked to select from apples, oranges and pears mean that you never make a choice?

 

 

 

It wasn't an analogy about sexual preferences at all. It was an example of a decision and I'd like to know if you think it is a "choice".

 

What is causing you to have the 'retching' reaction in the first place?

[Phi for All]

What are you trying to infer by capitalising SOME? For the sake of your question let's assume that I can't change the gender that I'm attracted to, how is my original choice invalidated because I still have the same preference? Does choosing oranges every time you're asked to select from apples, oranges and pears mean that you never make a choice?

 

I capitalized SOME because I didn't agree with your generalized statement, "Sexual preference can't be purely innate since people prefer homosexuality at some stage of their lives but later prefer heterosexuality and vice versa." SOME people do this.

 

You're Begging the Question with, "... how is my original choice invalidated...". I'm saying you didn't make a choice, you were simply attracted to one gender and not the other. It was hard-wired and not really a decision for you. If you're truly saying that you could choose to be attracted to the other gender any time you want, just like you could choose apples over oranges, then I'll retract the statement. I know I never could.

 

What is causing you to have the 'retching' reaction in the first place?

I grew up with Depression-era parents who thought canned foods were the height of technology. I didn't even know spinach could be fresh until I was in high school. My mother used to insist I have a bite of everything she fixed, and she loved that messy, pond-scum-looking goo she called spinach. I'm not sure whether it's the taste (it's been so long since I've had any), or the texture (fiberslime, I call it), but it's one of the few foods I just can't bring myself to eat.

 

So I'm asking. Is this my choice? I've already admitted that I could probably eat canned spinach if there was some great incentive. But I don't think I could ever choose to prefer it to other foods. I could choose to partake, but not choose to prefer? Does that make sense?

[john5746]

The recent topic of 'Is sexual preference a choice?' has spurned some interesting posts. Most people, if not all, who posted were in support that it wasn't a choice, which brings us to this topic. There are different categories available with regards to sexual preference: heterosexual, homosexual, asexual, bisexual, perhaps even bestiality ,but according to that thread, for different reasons, none of them are a choice. If sexual preference isn't a choice what makes something a choice? At what level does an individual qualify for having made a choice?

There is a wide range of freedoms in choices, so people were trying to express the lack of freedom or great difficulty in certain choices. I can choose not to have sex forever, but I can't choose to be asexual. One is very, very difficult. The other impossible, without surgery or medication. This is much different than choosing vanilla instead of chocolate ice cream. That would be arbitrary for me.

 

It's hard to define the "level" you ask, just as its hard to define when art becomes porn. Still, we can see the extremes pretty clearly.

[Villain]

 

I capitalized SOME because I didn't agree with your generalized statement, "Sexual preference can't be purely innate since people prefer homosexuality at some stage of their lives but later prefer heterosexuality and vice versa." SOME people do this.

 

You're Begging the Question with, "... how is my original choice invalidated...". I'm saying you didn't make a choice, you were simply attracted to one gender and not the other. It was hard-wired and not really a decision for you. If you're truly saying that you could choose to be attracted to the other gender any time you want, just like you could choose apples over oranges, then I'll retract the statement. I know I never could.

 

Yes, I agree only some people do that, but none the less it shows my point that people don't have sexual preference as a purely innate characteristic.

 

If anyone is begging the question it's your position of sexual preference being hard-wired, the above example of SOME people changing preference blows that out of the water.

 

I could choose in either case, the fact that I don't change my choice doesn't mean I have no choice. The choice of preference exists regards of the option that I choose. I also don't need to like any of them in order to choose a preference among them.

 

 

 

So I'm asking. Is this my choice? I've already admitted that I could probably eat canned spinach if there was some great incentive. But I don't think I could ever choose to prefer it to other foods. I could choose to partake, but not choose to prefer? Does that make sense?

 

This is not an example of preference though, you are singling out spinach and saying that you don't like or have some sort of intolerance to it. This is a reason why you would not prefer it to something more desirable but not a reason why you could not make a choice.

[Phi for All]

Yes, I agree only some people do that, but none the less it shows my point that people don't have sexual preference as a purely innate characteristic.

 

If anyone is begging the question it's your position of sexual preference being hard-wired, the above example of SOME people changing preference blows that out of the water.

You're overlooking the fact that SOME people are hard-wired to be capable of changing preference. I'm saying that all sexual preferences are hard-wired, including no preference. And I'm not Begging the Question, I'm saying that the evidence is heavily supportive of this stance; 20 years of studies back this up.

 

I could choose in either case, the fact that I don't change my choice doesn't mean I have no choice. The choice of preference exists regards of the option that I choose. I also don't need to like any of them in order to choose a preference among them.

 

I'm really sorry, but I don't believe a confirmed heterosexual male (sorry if this assumption is wrong) could "choose" to suddenly become attracted (remember, this is what we're really talking about, not just "doing it" but really WANTING, PREFERRING to "do it") to men. I'm not arguing from incredulity that it's not possible, I'm saying I've never seen any evidence that could support such a change in the way you perceive the genders. Of course it would be possible if that's the way you're genetically predisposed....

 

This is not an example of preference though, you are singling out spinach and saying that you don't like or have some sort of intolerance to it. This is a reason why you would not prefer it to something more desirable but not a reason why you could not make a choice.

I don't understand your point. I did single out canned spinach, it's an example of something I can't choose to prefer. I can single out others. I can't choose to prefer littering because I grew up with the Keep America Beautiful campaign. I could litter if pressed to, but I can never choose to prefer to litter over not littering. I can't even imagine the stress it would put on me to try. Doesn't that make sense?

 

It's not a genetic predisposition in these cases, of course, just examples of things I feel I have no choice over, as far as preferences go.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Phi for All
added clarification

[Villain]

You're overlooking the fact that SOME people are hard-wired to be capable of changing preference. I'm saying that all sexual preferences are hard-wired, including no preference. And I'm not Begging the Question, I'm saying that the evidence is heavily supportive of this stance; 20 years of studies back this up.

 

 

I'm not suggesting that some people are hard-wired to be capable of changing preference. I'm saying if sexual preference was hard-wired people wouldn't be able to change.

 

I'm not sure what evidence you're talking about but this suggest that you're wrong:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

[Marshalscienceguy]

I think that anyone can choose to commit straight or homosexual acts. I don't think everyone is simply born gay or straight though. I think sexuality forms from a number of things. Including experience during puberty years and sometimes trauma from early childhood. I do not think sexuality is as simple as people like to assume it is. I think it is created by a number of psychological, physical and social expireinces through out your life. I also think that depending on nature of a person they are more likely to develop certain sexual liking's. This goes for all sexuality not just who you have sex with but I think this does too apply to things like fetishes. I do not think there is any way from the day of birth of deciding "Ok this baby is going to be gay and this one is going to be straight". I think sexuality is developed over a process of years and is finally expressed during puberty around age 11-13. I also think sexuality and sexual liking are linked to your personality and its development as well. Though regardless of sexuality you can choose to do something you are not comfortable with sexually. It does not mean you are into it. How and what you act on is your choice. Your sexuality however I think is just something that develops over so many years and not something you can judge a baby by.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Marshalscienceguy

[Iamwhat?]

What is choice, very interesting. Did any of us chose to be born? If so where you able to chose male or female? Destiny or freewill? Or maybe a little of both? Have you ever heard the phrase "go with the flow"? What is this flow or current in the river life all about? I feel that we all share a destiny in the since that we are all in the same river, but each can make their own choices that determine where in the river they float. I feel that a person is born gay, I feel it is possible for someone born as a male yet be female and vice versa.(Transsexual) Most gay people I have known where gay and not bisexual. I do not think they had a choice it was their destiny to be gay or transsexual. I feel that a person who is bisexual has made a choice.

[Fred Champion]

There is a big difference between the way someone is and the way they act. The "is" part may come from any number of factors. Other than involuntary responses to stimuli, the "act" part is choice.

 

We can not know why a person does what he/she does, and often that person may claim he/she doesn't know why either. Choices may not always be rational. The best response I have to a question of why I did something is "it must have seemed like a good idea at the time".

 

I accept that it is never right to judge someone on the way he/she is, because we can't really know the way another person is. I accept that it is right, and often necessary, to respond to what he/she does.

[Ten oz]

We are all very different. Some men like a tall woman while other men like short women. Do we just choose to be that way? I find the question a bit meaningless because we are that way. It is the reality. What matters is whether or not it is bad for society. Pedophiles for example like child. Is that a choice? We generally don't care if it is a choice or not because it is obviously very harmful to society. It can't be tolerated choice or not. Same goes for any number of things like violence, addiction, and so on. I would argue that most serial killers are born with mental disorders. We still can't tolerate serial killers as a society.

With the above stated an adult (post puberty) men or women choosing to have intimate relations with their same gender does not impact society in my opinion. People have to right to spend there time with whomever they choose doing whatever they choose long as it is mutual.