Islam - a second attempt of discussion

[SlavicWolf]

The first topic about Islam was closed - as it was quite messy, I decided that it would be better to create a new one in order to discuss Islam's nature in a more orderly manner.

I decided to begin this discussion by writing a brief biography of Muhammad. Muslims deny that they worship anyone but Allah but in fact the status of Muhammad approaches that of God. He is viewed as the most perfect human being - to the point that students of Islamic academies learn how he slept, what and how he ate, how he washed himself and on which leg he put the most weight while defecating. Under Sharia criticism of Muhammad is punishable by death. So, if we want to understand the minds of Muslim terrorists, we must first understand Muhammad. What I write here is mostly based on two works - "Biography of the Prophet" by Ibn Hisham (a commentary of an earlier biography by Ibn Ishaq) and "History of prophets and kings" by Al Tabari - both works were written about 1000 years ago and are treated as the most authoritative sources on MUhammad's life available. Both can be read for free on the web.

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The future prophet of Islam, Muhammad Ibn Abdullah, was born in Mecca in 570 A.D. Not much is known about his life prior to Islam. It is known that his father died before his birth and his mother (named Amina) gave him away to a Bedouin woman (Halima) when he was just 6 months old. Why did she reject him even though he was her only child, is not known.

Muhammad's step-mother, Halima, became concerned with his mental health. He was a solitary child who would withdraw to an imaginary world, conversing with friends no one could see. When he reached the age of 5, Halima took him back to his mother who was reluctant to take him back until she was told about his bizarre behavior:

"His [Halima’s own son] father said to me, ‘I am afraid that this child has had a
stroke, so take him back to his family before the result appears.’... She
[Muhammad's mother] asked me what happened and gave me no peace until I told
her. When she asked if I feared a demon had possessed him, I replied that I did."

 

Later in his life Muhammad recounted his bizarre childhood experiences:

"Two men in white clothes came to me with a golden basin full of snow. They took
me and split open my body, then they took my heart and split it open and took out
from it a black clot which they flung away. Then they washed my heart and my
body with that snow until they made them pure."

(From W:. Montgomery Watt: Translation of Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad (p. 36)

 

Muhammad's reunion with his mother didn't last for long. A year later Amina died, leaving him under the custody of his grandfather, Abdul Mutallib. His early experiences left such a deep scars on his psyche, that even 50 years later when visiting her grave, he refused to pray for her:

"This is the grave of my mother; the Lord has permitted me to visit it. And I sought
leave to pray for her, but it was not granted. So I called my mother to remembrance,
and the tender memory of her overcame me, and I wept"

(From: Tabaqat Ibn Sa'd p. 21)

 

His grandfather, partially in order to make Muhammad happy, partially because he was the only remnant of his deceased son, Abdullah, treated Muhammad preferentially, lavishing him with love. It's reported that he received more attention from Abdul Mutallib than any of his sons.

“The child was treated by him with singular fondness. A rug used to be spread under the shadow of the
Ka’ba, and on it, the aged chief reclined in shelter from the heat of the sun.
Around the carpet, but at a respectful distance, sat his sons. The little
Muhammad was wont to run close up to the patriarch, and unceremoniously take
possession of his rug. His sons would seek to drive him off, but Abdul Muttalib
would interpose saying: ‘Let my little son alone.’ He would then stroke him on
the back, as he delighted in watching his childish prattle. The boy was still under the care of his nurse, Baraka, but he would ever and anon quit her, and run

into the apartment of his grandfather, even when he was alone or asleep"

(From: The Life of Muhammad by Sir. William Muir Volume II Ch. 1. P. XXVIII)

 

However, after two years, his elderly grandfather also died. After that, he lived together with his uncle, Abu Talib. It is reported that he was a very shy and lonely child, avoiding other children. He rarely smiled and when he did, he covered his mouth. Sometimes he would attend sheep, a job that ,at that time and place, was mostly reserved for women. The wage was low and he depended on his uncle Abu Talib for survival.

Relief came at the age of 25. His uncle arranged him a job for a wealthy widow named Khadijah. He went to Syria as her trustee, selling her merchandise and buying what she had wanted him to buy. After he'd returned, they married. From then onwards, his financial security was guaranteed. He would often leave his house, spending days in a cave near Mecca (now called " The Cave of Hira") where his imagination would be set free

 

Then, at the age of 40, he had a strange experience. After spending days in his cave, he started having strong abdominal pains, rapid muscle contractions, involuntary body movements (as if someone was shaking him violently), coupled with excessive sweating, rapid heartbeat and hallucinations. At first he had thought that he was possessed by a demon. IT was his wife who proposed the idea that it was in fact archangel Gabriel and that Muhammad was his mwssanger.

His first follower was his wife, Khadijah, his 10 years old cousin Ali Ibn Abi Talib, his friend Abu Bakr and his adopted son, Zayd. After he had begun public preaching in 613 AD, his message did not receive much attention.

 

His message consisted mostly of one thing - obey Allah and his messenger. As he is God's messenger, people are obliged to believe in him, praise him, obey him and even fear him. Failure to do so results in punishment, both in this world and the next. Monotheism was of secondary importance.

The pagans in Mecca were not interested in Islam but they weren't hostile to it either. Pre-Islamic Arabia was a tolerant place, even by our time's standard. Pagans, Jews and Christians lived together, prayed together and converted freely between religions - Kaaba in Mecca (a black stone towards which Muslims pray) housed 360 religious artifacts, each belonging to a different tribe. The only limitation was that members of various religions were not allowed to insult each other's feelings.

 

However, everything changed when Muhammad broke with the tradition of tolerance by insulting the gods of Meccans. This part of his life was well documented by his biographers:

"When the apostle openly displayed Islam as Allah ordered him, his people did not withdraw or turn against him, so far as I have heard, until he spoke disparagingly of their gods. When he did that, they took great offence and resolved unanimously to treat him as an enemy."

(From: Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 167)

 

The first blood in the history of Islam was shed by Muslims:

"One time, while Saad Ibn Abu Waqqas with many of the Messenger’s companions were praying in a defile as such, some men of Quraish saw them. They insulted and satirized them to the point of irritation, which led to fight. Saad hit one of them with camel’s jawbone and head wended him. That was the first bloodshed in Islam. However, the unbelievers did not insult Muhammad (Allah’s blessing and peace be upon him) himself before he started badly remembering and satirizing their gods, though they did never let him entirely be going to spread the new religion. All of Quraishis quarreled him, gibed his religion and hurt his companions"

(From: Sirat Ibn Hisham, page 46, translated by Mohammad Mahdi Al-Sharif, Dar al-kotob Al-Ilmiyah, Lebanon 2006)

 

From these two quotes it is clear that Meccans had no problem in coexisting side by side with Muhammad and his religion as long as he respected theirs. When hw began mocking their religion, they went to his uncle Abu Talib so that he convinces his nephew to stop his insults.

 

Muhammad disregarded Abu Talib’s appeal not to insult the gods of the Quraishis as Muhammad’s insult of their gods continued. As a result, animosity between the Muslim camp and Meccans kept growing. The Meccans, unable to bear Muhammad’s continued insult of their gods, went to Abu Talib a second time. They were more forceful this time in their warning against Muhammad’s increasing insult of their gods, his discrediting of their customs and dishonoring of their forefathers. They demanded that Abu Talib put an end to Muhammad’s arrogant behavior and language. Abu Talib promised them to talk to his nephew again. Muhammad refused to listen to Abu Talib’s emotional appeal for not to insult the Meccans’ gods and traditions. When Muhammad refused to stop insulting the Quraishi gods, Abu Talib anticipated that they may harm Muhammad. So, in order to preempt any possible hostile action of the Quraish against his nephew, Abu Talib asked some lineages of Quraish (Banu Hashem, and Banul Muttalib) to join him in protecting Muhammad. All responded positively except for one man that Muslims call Abu Lahab (father of ignorance). They went to the Ka’ba with Abu Talib, where he threatened to kill the Meccans to the last one should any harm befall Muhammad.

Abu Lahab was the immediate uncle of Muhammad. He had a dignified name, “Abd Al Uzza”. The word “Uzza” in Arabic signifies high status. However, Muslims changed the names of such decent persons to something horrible, just because they did not agree with the message of Islam. When Abu Talib—Muhammad’s unwavering protector despite being a Pagan—died in 619 AD, Abd Al-Uzza took the mantle of leadership of the family of Abd Al Muttalib, including as protector of Muhammad. Later on, he heard that Muhammad was consigning all of his dead Pagan forefathers to eternal hellfire. When Abd Al-Uzza asked Muhammad about it, Muhammad affirmed the same. This infuriated Abd Al-Uzza and revoked his protection of Muhammad. Nonetheless, Muhammad continued living in Mecca for 2-3 more years until he emigrated to Medina in June 622 AD.

 

 

PART 2 - Migration to Medina

Muhammad wasn't very successful with his message. After 13 years of preaching, he managed to convert about 70 people, most of whom were either his friends and family members, rebellious youths or slaves. After Abu Talib and Khadijah died in 619 AD, he was left with little financial resources so he decided to migrate to Medina where his followers managed to convert a few pagan Arabs.

 

A few of his followers were reluctant to leave so Allah supposedly sent down a revelation claiming that they'll go to hell if they don't do it:

“When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they
say: ‘In what (plight) were ye?’ They reply: ‘Weak and oppressed were we in the earth.’ They
say: ‘Was not the earth of Allâh spacious enough for you to move yourselves away?’ Such
men will find their abode in Hell, - What an evil refuge!” (Qur'an 4:97)

 

Muhammad himself stayed in Mecca. Then one night Allah supposedly sent him a revelation claiming that Meccans are trying to assassinate him, so he ordered his friend Abu Bakr to escort him to Medina. The verse sounds as follows:

"Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against you [Muhammad], to keep you in
bonds, or slay you, or get you out (of your home). They deceive, and Allâh too
deceives; but the best of deceivers is Allâh" (Qur'an 8:30)

 

It seems that Allah knew that something is going to happen but was not sure what exactly. No assassination attempt took place. Meccans had to endure Muhammad's insults for 13 years and they never resorted to violence against him. The only "persecution" he suffered from them was when they put animal guts at his back when he was praying.

 

The night when Muhammad went to Medina marks the beginning of the Islamic calendar. At that time Medina was inhabited by two populations - Jews, consisting of the tribes of Banu Qaynuqa, Banu Nadir and Banu Qurayza and pagan Arabs divided into Banu Aus and Banu Khazraj.Arabic history books trace the orgin of Medina's Jewish population back to 587 BC, when Nebuchadnezzor destroyed Jerusalem, forcing Jews to flee. Pagans, on the other hand, arrived in 450 AD when a great flood in Yemen forced many Arab tribes to seek refugee elsewhere. While the pagans in Mecca were merchants, those in Medina were mostly laborers working for the Jews whom they envied for their wealth and education It was in Medina where Islam evolved from a relatively peaceful religion into a military force that was intended to govern all aspects of society. During these last ten years of Muhammad's life, infidels were evicted or enslaved, converted upon point of death and even rounded up and slaughtered depending on expediency.

 

Anyway, after their immigration Muslims had no source of income and relied exclusively on charity. Given that not long before that, Muhammad had promised them wealth, which, of course, didn't materialize, many Muslims began voicing discontent. Some started abandoning him. As a consequence a threatening verse was "revealed":

"They [the unbelievers] long that you should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that
you may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they
forsake their homes in the way of Allâh; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them
and kill them wherever you find them, and choose neither friend nor helper from
among them." (Qur'an 4:89)

 

This verse told Muslims to kill those Muslims who wanted to go back to Mecca. So it seems that they weren't so horribly persecuted after all - contrary to what many apologists claim.

 

Despite that, Muhammad still had to find a way to earn a living for himself and his followers. He told them to rob Meccan merchant caravans, claiming that the Meccans had driven them our of their homes so it was lawful to plunder them:

"Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are
oppressed, and most surely Allâh is well able to assist them. Those who have been
expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is
Allâh." (Quran 22:39-40)

 

""O Prophet! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient
and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a
thousand of the unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding." (Qur'an 8:65)

 

“Allâh promises you much booty that ye will capture.” (Qur'an. 48:20)

 

“Enjoy what you took in war, lawful and good.” (Qur'an 8:69)

 

Innumerable Muslim atrocities committed through centuries have been inspired by these and other similar verses. Tamerlane whose troops killed millions of people (including 300,000 Hindus killed in a single day) said that he has two goals in mind. First - to spread Islam, second - to gain wealth as Allah has made their property lawful for Muslims. The same desire for loot and women fueled military expeditures of Moors in Spain, Ottomans in the Balkans and Crimean Khanate in Russia.

 

After conducting a series of unsuccessful raids, Muslims finally managed to intercept one caravan (travelling from Meca to Taif) in December 623. The caravan was guarded by only 4 men while the raiding party consisted of 8-12 Muslims. It was especially vulnerable as the attack took place during the holy months - a time when various Arab tribes would abstain from fighting each other.

 

"A Muslim raider who had shaved his head, looked down on them [the Meccan caravan], and when they saw him they felt safe and said, "They are pilgrims, you have nothing to fear from them." The Muslim raiders encouraged each other, and decided to kill as many as they could of them and take what they had. Waqid shot Amr bin al-Hadrami with an arrow and killed him..."

(From Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 424-425)

 

As the raid took place during the holy months and the raiders were disguised as pilgrims (making it a particularly heinous act of deception), some recent converts from Medina began doubting Muhammad and his message. The idea of killing people and robbing their wealth simply didn't match the ideals of pious life preached by previous prophets. It also didn't go well with previous Arab traditions. As a consequence, Allah "revealed" another verse:

"Fighting is prescribed to you even though it's hateful to you. But it's possible that you like something that is bad for you and dislike something that is good for you. Allah knows while you don't know." (Qur'an 2:216)

 

More soon.

Edited March 22, 2014 by SlavicWolf

[John Cuthber]

It was going so well until this popped up

 

"So, if we want to understand the minds of Muslim terrorists,"

 

That conflation of terrorism and Islam is IMO a breach of the rules.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to deride all religion as glorified fairy tales, but that''s not the point here.

[Endy0816]

True fact: Most terrorists are bigoted.

[SlavicWolf]

I dare disagree. You have to realize that, at least in theory, 1.5 bln people consider this man to be their ultimate moral authority and try to be like him. Nothing a Muslim does can be in conflict with what Muhammad (and his puppet deity) did and said. I'm writing this precisely so that people here can decide whether Islam has anything to do with terrorism or not.

 

So let's continue:

 

After this one verse more was "revealed" to Muhammad:

"They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah to deny Him to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein." (Qur'an 2:217)

 

Even if the Meccans indeed drove Muslims out of Mecca (they didn't), how does it justify killing innocent caravan drivers and plundering someone else's wealth? Muslims use the same logic to this day. When they feel that they're oppressed or not given enough privileages, they riot and kill random people. Everything that Muslim terrorists do today is an imitation of what Muhammad did.

 

He also encouraged his followers to not only fight for him but to pay for his wars:

"And spend of your wealth in the cause of Allâh, and make not your own hands
contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allâh loves those who do good" (Qur'an.2:195)

 

Allah (=Muhammad) basically says that he loves those who "do good" and doing "good" means fighting in wars or financing them. Today Muslims who can't fight contribute to jihad by financing Islamic "charities". Charity in Islam is not established (as is the case with other religions) in order to help poor people all around the world, but to further the expansion of Islam, by building mosques, Islamic schools or arming Islamic fighters. A classic example of this is the copious amount of money tha Gulf countries pay to finance precisely these things, while at the same time millions of Muslims in Afghanistan, Sudan etc. suffer.

 

Allah would criticise his followers for not amassing enough cash for military excesses of his prophet:

"And what reason have you that you should not spend in Allâh's way? And Allâh's is
the inheritance of the heavens and the earth, not alike among you are those who
spent before the victory and fought (and those who did not): they are more exalted in
rank than those who spent and fought afterwards; and Allâh has promised good to
all; and Allâh is Aware of what you do." (Qur'an.57:10)

 

That money is like a loan given to God:

"Who is he that will Loan to Allâh a beautiful loan? For Allâh will increase it
manifold to his credit, and he will have besides a liberal Reward." (Qur'an.57:11)

 

Muslims should in fact be grateful that they can contribute:

"Those who spend their substance in the cause of Allâh, and follow not up their gifts
with reminders of their generosity or with injury, -for them their reward is with their
Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Qur'an. 2:262)

 

He promises them rewards:

"So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when
you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set
them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That
(shall be so); and if Allâh had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due
from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those
who are slain in the way of Allâh, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish."
(Qur'an. 47:4)

 

Later he said:

"And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to
frighten thereby the enemy of Allâh and your enemy and others besides them, whom
you do not know (but) Allâh knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allâh's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly." (Qur'an. 8:60)

 

Those who fight, with their money and their bodies, are promised extravagant rewards:

"Believers! Shall I point out to you a profitable course that will save you from a
woeful scourge? Have faith in Allâh and His apostle, and fight for Allâh’s cause
with your wealth and with your persons. That would be best for you, if you but
knew it. He will forgive you your sins and admit you to gardens watered by running
streams; He will lodge you in pleasant mansions in the gardens of Eden. That is the
supreme triumph" (Qur'an.61:10-11)

 

"They shall recline on couches lined with thick brocade, and within
reach will hang fruits of both gardens. Which of your Lord’s blessings would you
deny? Therein are bashful virgins whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched
before. Which of your Lord’s blessings would you deny? Virgins as fair as corals
and rubies. Which of your Lord’s blessings would you deny?" (Qur'an.55:53-55)

 

He warned those who didn't want to fighL:

"And those who believe say: Why has not a chapter been revealed? But when a
decisive chapter is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein you see those in
whose hearts is a disease look to you with the look of one fainting because of death.
Woe to them then!" (Qur'an.47:20)

 

Given these verses it isn't hard to understand why so many Islamic "charities" have been caught financing terrorism. What for us is terrorism, for a Muslim is an obligation and the most sure way to please Allah.

 

Part 3 - The battle of Badr.

Ok, back to history. In 624 AD, after the successful raid in Nakhla, Muhammad decided to intercept another caravan.

"Then the apostle heard that Abu Sufyan was coming from Syria with a large caravan of Qurish, containing their money and merchandise, accompanied by some thirty or forty men… When the Apostle heard about Abu Sufyan coming from Syria, he summoned the Muslims and said, “This is the Quraish caravan containing their property. Go out to attack it, perhaps Allah will give it as a prey.”

(From: Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 428)

 

The account goes on to say that some of the Muslims were reluctant to participate in the attack because they did not want to go to war. Muhammad later refers to these peaceful Muslims as ‘Hypocrites’ in the Qur’an, where he also condemns them to Hell and demands that true Muslims deal with them harshly.

"After Muhammad sent his men to attack the caravan, Abu Sufyan (his Meccan adversary) learned of his plans:

"When he got near to the Hijaz, Abu Sufyan was seeking news and questioning every rider in his anxiety, until he got news from some riders that Muahmmad had called out his companions against him and his caravan."

(From: Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 428)

 

Abu Sufyan did two things at this point to avert battle. He changed his route, so as to avoid Muhammad’s army, and he sent for help. The Meccans then sent out a larger force of about 900 men to rescue the caravan.

A lengthy cat and mouse game ensued between Muhammad and the Meccans, in which the latter do nearly everything they can to avoid a conflict and make their way home (Ishaq/Hisham 433 to 443). Eventually Muhammad successfully forced them into battle by deliberately stopping up the water wells on which they depended for the trek back to Mecca - and then planting his army between the remaining wells and the thirsty Meccans.

 

At that point, the Muslims clearly had the advantage against the weary and reluctant Meccans, even though they were lesser in number. Initially, they amused themselves by killing the few men desperate enough to try and reach the water:

"Al-Aswad, who was a quarrelsome ill-natured man, stepped forth and said, “I swear to God that I will drink from their cistern or destroy it or die before reaching it.” Hamza [a Muslim strongman] came forth against him and when the two met, Hamza smote him and sent his foot and half his shank flying as he was near the cistern. He fell on his back and lay there, blood streaming from his foot toward his comrades. Then he crawled to the cistern and threw himself into it for the purpose of fulfilling his oath, but Hamza followed him and smote him…”

(From: Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 443)

 

The Muslims toyed with several other thirst-crazed Meccans in the same deadly manner before Muhammad finally gave the order to rout the “enemy.”

The period following the victorious battle was one of giddy celebration for the Muslims. The decapitated heads of Muhammad’s opponents from Mecca were presented to him, and their slayers honored. Live captives were brought before him as well, where he ordered some ransomed and others executed.

 

“I said (would you attack) my prisoners? But... The people formed a ring around us as I was protecting him. Then a man drew his sword and cut off his son’s foot so that he fell down and Umayya [the boy’s father] let out a cry such as I have never heard… They hewed them to pieces with their swords until they were dead.”

(From: Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 449)

Uqba bin Abu Mu’ayt pled for his life

“When the apostle ordered him to be killed, Uqba said, “But who will look after my children, O Muhammad?” [Muhammad’s reply] “Hell.” The man was put to death"

(From: Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 458)

 

Other prisoners were ransomed but Uqba received "special treatment" because, when Muhammad was still in Mecca, he put animal guts at his back when he was praying. How does a mere mockery justify murder!? Compare Muhammad's behavior to that of Buddha who, when mocked, said: "When you do this, it is as if you threw a piece of burning charcoal at someone - you are the one who gets burned". The difference of attitudes is striking.

 

The captured wealth of the Meccans was divided among the victors. Hamza, the man who had slaughtered the first Meccan attempting to reach water, turned his cruel amusement toward defenseless animals, cutting the humps off of camels and disemboweling them for no reason other than to relish their agony

Amid the drunken carnage, Allah “spoke” to Muhammad and told him to make sure that the other Muslims gave him a fifth of the war booty. These words have become permanently recorded in the Qur’an (8:1), even though they have no relevance today.

The prophet of Islam also informed his men that their victory was actually due to a legion of angels sent down by Allah (8:9) - which were, of course, visible only to Muhammad (8:50). (For some reason, the angels didn’t show at the next battle, in which the Muslims were routed at Uhud).

Much of the 8th Sura, one of the Qur’an’s more violent chapters, was “revealed” following the aftermath of the Battle of Badr. Many of the verses make little sense outside of their historical context, proving that the Sira (biography of Muhammad) is necessary for interpreting the Qur’an.

Edited March 22, 2014 by SlavicWolf

[John Cuthber]

"You have to realize that, at least in theory, 1.5 bln people consider this man to be their ultimate moral authority and try to be like him."

I think you have failed to take due account of the phrase "in theory" there.

And something like 2.2 billion believe in the fairy tale called Christianity from which you can also cherry pick bad bits.

Most Christians are not in the habit of stoning children to death for being rude to their parents.

in much the same way, most Muslims don't follow all the "rules" of their faith.

 

Most terrorism may be wrought in the name of religion, and religion often helps to "justify" it, but the true causes are generally political and arise from perceived persecution towards some group to such an extent that their only option is to fight back through guerilla war.

 

That's not a religious issue, it's a political one.

Edited March 22, 2014 by John Cuthber

[SlavicWolf]

Dude, Christians who do evil things do them because they DEVIATE from the teachings of Christ. the New Testament is a fairy tale but at least Jesus was a good man. He didn't raid caravans, rape women captured in battle, kill his critics or stone adulterers to death. Once the Jews wanted to test him so they brought a prostitute to him, asking what should they do. Jesus replied "let the one who is without sin cast the first stone". IT shows quire a bit of his atitude. For Christians it isn't the butchers of the Old Testaments who are the ultimate authority. It's Jesus. Muslims can't abrogate the violent teachings of Muhammad because he is the last prophet.

 

You said that Islamic terrorism is not a religious but a political problem. I'm saying it's both. In Islam politics and religion are inseparable. Islam was not meant to be a personal religion like Christianity or Buddhism, but to be a state religion. Muhammad was at the same time a religious figure, a military commander and a despotic ruler of a theocratic state which he founded.

 

BTW - Can you let me complete my biography of Muhammad first!? This thread is not about Christianity. Even if Jesus taught things that ar 1000x worse than what Muhammad taught, it still wouldn't justify Muhammad.

Edited March 22, 2014 by SlavicWolf

[John Cuthber]

"Christians who do evil things do them because they DEVIATE from the teachings of Christ"

 

OK, have you forgotten that he's reported as saying "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

and that the Law He's talking about is the OT with all the stonings etc?

 

"Can you let me complete my biography of Muhammad first!?"

why, what will it achieve?

As I have pointed out, a lot of his "followers" ignore some of his teachings anyway.

[SlavicWolf]

... And by the virtue of rejecting them they aren't Muslims. They are munafiqin (hypocrites) and, according to Muhammad, are worse than the worst animals. There is an entire chapter of the Quran (one of the last revealed) devoted especially to Muslims who don't want to take part in war. It has vivid descriptions of how low they are and what a horrible punishment awaits them in this life and the next if they don't join the murderous rampage of their prophet.

 

The reason why I write this is to make people familiar with Muhammad's life. Most people don't know much about him except that he founded Islam and escaped from Mecca. Some think he was a Christ-like figure - a peaceful hippie, full of love and compassion who rejected worldly pleasures in order to sacrifice himself for the sake of humanity. His biographies, of course, paint a different picture.

 

I should continue

Part 4 - The expulsion of Banu Qaynuya.

After arriving in Medina Muhammad at first tried to appease the Jews living there. As Muslims were poor and depended on the charity of the Jews for their survival, Muhammad felt it was necessary to be kind to them, at least for some time. He proclaimed verses praising them and saying that they can attain salvation through their own religion. He also changed the direction of prayer from Mecca to Jerusalem.

 

At the same time he was well aware of the danger that the Jews posed for his authority. The Jews living in Medina were literate and, as such, were able to pinpoint errors in his version of biblical stories. It obvious to them that he'd picked them from secondary sources and not from any scholars. As a consequence, Muhammad proclaimed that the Jews had purposely altered their scriptures in order to hide the prophecy about his prophethood (of course since then no Muslim has ever been able reconstruct the "uncorrupted" version of the Bible). At the same time he started plotting against them.

 

The first opportunity came in 624 AD. After scoring a major victory at Badr, Muhammad felt that his army was strong enough to take on the Jews in Medina. He also knew that once he attacks one tribe, others won't come to their help due to the long standing rivalry between various Jewish tribes.

 

The only thing he needed was casus belli. He finally got one when one Jew played a prank on a Muslim woman by pinning her skirt to the ground while she was squatting in a Jeweler's shop in Banu Qaynuqa' headquarters. Upon standing her cloth tore, leaving her naked. A Muslim man passing by, already filled with the hatred of the Jews by his prophet, jumped on the Jew and killed him. The relatives of the victim then killed the Muslim in retaliation.

 

That was the opportunity Muhammad was looking for. Instead of trying to resolve the situation peacefully, he blamed all Jews belonging to Banu Qaynuqa and told them to either submit to his religion or face war. Upon hearing his words, they shut themselves in their headquarters and Muhammad laid down a siege, cutting their water supply and threatening them with slaughter.

 

After 14 days of siege the Jews tried to negotiate but Muhammad didn't want to hear from them. He wanted them to be slaughtered. HE was only talked out of it ny Abdullah Ibn Ubayy, the chief of Banu Khazraj. He took Muhammad by his collar, claiming that he won't let him kill his allies and friends. Knowing that not listening to him would mean defeat, Muhammmad - though angered - let Banu Qaynuqa leave the city, provided that they leave all their possessions to him.

 

"Banu Qainuqa’ were the first of the Jews to break their agreement with the
apostle and to go to war, between Badr and Ohod, and the apostle besieged
them until they surrendered unconditionally. `Abdullah b. Ubayy b. Salul
went to him [Muhammad] when God had put them in his power and said, 'O
Muhammad, deal kindly with my clients' (now they were allies of Khazraj),
but the apostle put him off. He repeated the words, and the apostle turned
away from him, whereupon he thrust his hand into the collar of the apostle's

robe; the apostle was so angry that his face became almost black. He said,
'Confound you, let me go.' He answered, 'No, by God, I will not let you go
until you deal kindly with my clients. Four hundred men without mail and
three hundred mailed protected me from all mine enemies; would you cut
them down in one morning? By God, I am a man who fears that
circumstances may change.' The apostle said, 'You can have them.'"

(From: Ibn Ishaq Sirat, p. 363)

 

After that they were banished and their wealth was distributed among Muslims. Muhammad took 1/5 of the captured loot for himself. Anyway, shouldn't we expect that a person who claims to be the ultimate moral authority for all people for all times should do things more noble than stealing and banishing? Shouldn't his heart be filled with kindness and desire of peace and prosperity for people of all faiths, instead of psychopatic moral relativism as displayed by Muhammad?

 

 

The Muslim who talked Muhammad out of the senseless massacre was later labeled as a hypocrite (munafiq) and condemned to hell. When Abdullah Ibn Ubayy died, Muhammad dug him out of his grave to spit on his body and into his mouth.

Edited March 22, 2014 by SlavicWolf

[s1eep]

What do we get out of reading it all? A good idea of Muhammad that we can use to better understand terrorists?

 

Can you give me a short summary that tells us what this thread means? From skim reading I read some story about a man and people he knows. I guess religion, and having a perfect example man or women as a main character is good, when people are following, because they have direction, but I don't see what most religions are trying to achieve, They either are very cryptic or formalized with their message because it's very unclear what it means to be Christian or Muslim. The Tao Te Jing on the other hand is a worthy book, it doesn't use Gods but it has a main character called 'the sage', and is focused around nature. Does it give us a clue about religion being linked with terrorism?

Edited March 22, 2014 by s1eep

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

If the goal here was to do better than the other thread, the choice to repeat the No True Scotsman fallacy was a bad tactic

 

Closed. Do not re-introduce the discussion